Lyr Req: Bangalore (Don Clark)

Subject: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Bearheart
Date: 04 May 03 - 09:20 PM

Heard this some years ago on a tape someone lent me and bits of it have been on my mind lately. Would like to find the words before it drives me crazy.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 May 03 - 10:29 PM

Is this to do with the Barrington-M'Kenzie duel? I can't find it in Kipling, but its title may not contain the name of the City.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: ooh-aah
Date: 05 May 03 - 03:39 AM

Could it refer to the seige of Bangalore in 1791, when the British captured it from Tipu Sultan? I too would be very interested to know more. Bangalore is in the South of India, and is now the capital of Karnataka state. Any scraps of lyrics you can remember?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 05 May 03 - 03:17 PM

Looks like the song is obscure. To keep this going, here is a limerick:
There once was a young maid from Bangalore
Who decided that life was a terrible bore,
She rouged her tits in old Biarritz
And declared "From now on I'll whore."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Bearheart
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:12 PM

I think it was the seige of 1791. It is sung fromthe perspective of a soldier, and it's basically about the horrors of war. If I could remember anything but snippits I could probably reconstruct it. So far it's eluding me.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:42 AM

I had never heard of the Barrington - M'Kenzie duel, but I found an account of it here, written by Barrington's brother.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: mooman
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:18 AM

There is an old opera called "The Siege of Bangalore" with music, I think, by Joseph Mazzinghi (spelling?). Could that be a clue?

moo

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:48 AM

I think this was authored recently, it is certainly in folk song style, from the perspective of a British soldier. It may even have been authored by a member of the band that sang it (Out of the Rain?)
Sorry--it's been probably around 15 years ago?

Bekki

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:45 PM

An old secular piece, the Siege of Bangalore, 1795: Siege Bangalore
Scroll down a bit to below Valenciennes listings. Incipit codes given. The pop-up code indexes are unusual at this site.

Probably nothing to do with the song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:48 PM

Oh, well- http://www.colonialdancing.org/Easmes/Indexes/ldxtSIE.htm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Bearheart
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:28 AM

Guest, I can't get this to come up for me...

Still hoping the words will surface...

Bekki

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 May 03 - 05:07 PM

I think this is the page that our guest meant to link to:
http://www.colonialdancing.org/Easmes/Indexes/IdxtSIE.htm

It's all a matter of mistyping an "l" for an "I" -- an illustration of why it's better to copy and paste URLs instead of typing them.

Subject: Lyr Add: BANGALORE (Don Clark)
From: Bearheart
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:11 PM

Sometime back I was looking to the words for a song that I really like. No one ever responded to my query. Finally found an old song collection of my own with the words in it. I think it is a fine song and should be sung more widely, (and very timely if you ask me) but don't know how to submit it here and have concerns about legal stuff. I want to respect the rights of the author.
This is the song, which I had on an old tape of a band I think used to be in the Minneapolis area? Walking on Air. I think the author was in the band:

9) Bangalore
Don Clark/ Walking on Air

The days are long, the nights come on
And whisper we may soon be gone
Until that day we'll carry on
Outside the walls of Bangalore
My name is Williams, I was sent
With fifteen thousand boys and men
To guard the peace with our bayonets
Outside the walls of Bangalore

Chorus:
If we ever see good weather
If I ever see my home
I'll take my family in my arms
And never think of Bangalore

The first day here we turned our guns
On boys no older than my son
They'd only knives but still they'd come
Outside the walls of Bangalore
One soldier asked the captain why
Our wounded foes were left to die
The lash cost that young man his eye
Outside the walls of Bangalore

At night the soldiers drink and sing
Of women soft and England green
Amid the laughter, tears do stream
Outside the walls of Bangalore
I wonder why they sent us here
To guard our tea and spice so dear
Or was it just a white man's fear
Of freedom down in Bangalore

Sorry I'm not good with the line breaks.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Help re: adding lyrics: Bangalore
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:49 PM

Hi, Bekki - thanks for the lyrics. It's a very interesting song. We generally post anything that's requested here, although we prefer to post just links to the really commercial songs that wouldn't be of interest to folkies. Since we're posting as part of our appreciation and study of the songs, we figure we're within our rights. We will delete lyrics if we get a request from the copyright holder. But in general, it's the responsibility of the staff of Mudcat and the Digital Tradition to deal with the legalities. Feel free to post what you like.

Occasionally, we'll get a request like this one (click) that asks for all the songs on an album. We generally get a little huffy about stuff like that, and usually won't honor a whole-album request.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:38 PM

Interesting. I'd always thought of Bangalore as the place where they route your phone calls when you are having software problems. So it's been there since 1795?!!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Bearheart
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 12:26 PM

Thanks Joe for the info. After 4 plus years of addiction to Mudcat I still feel like a newbie. Partly because I don't really have the time to do a lot of pure research into the fine points of the Cafe. And since getting my new harp:):):)... I have even less time. So now I mostly do the strictly music stuff.

As to the song, it reminds me a bit of Kipling, and the tune is somewhat reminiscent (in style) of some of K's poetry that variuos people have put music to.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 02:35 PM

I was acquainted with Don Clark and Michele Delattre when they lived in Minneapolis/St. Paul and performed as part of Walking on Air. They did some great music. The other 2 members of Walking on Air were Laura MacKenzie and Ross Sutter. The band was named after a novel that Michelle's father wrote. The band broke up when Don & Michelle moved to the San Francisco area (Oakland, I think) where Don is a reporter for the Wall Street Journal.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST,Ooh Aah
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:57 PM

This isn't a very good song, to anyone who knows the history. Purely from a factual point of view, the seige was certainly in 1791 not 1795, and the British were trying to get in, not out - what's more they were heavily outnumbered - Tipu had a relieving army but luckily was too scared to attack, and watched as Bangalore fell. Tipu's troops were well armed, trained and equipped (partly with French help)and were not equipped with 'only knives'. The seige was a dramatic affair - the British were operating at the end of very long suppy lines from Madras, always vulnerable to Tipu's excellent cavalry, and taking Bangalore was vital to them. Colonel Moorhouse, a hero of earlier battles against Tipu and his father was killed outside the walls (there's an excellent painting of this in the National Army Museum, London). As for the implication that it was the 'white man's fear of freedom' (sigh) that started the war, it was begun by Tipu's invading the territory of the Maharaja of Travancore, an ally of the British. Tipu was an extremely aggressive ruler, whose designs on the territory of his neighbors left those of the British, at that point at least, well behind. It was only the third in a series of four wars between them and the Mysore rulers, which finished when the British took Tipu's capital of Srirangapatna (Seringapatam) in 1799. Tipu was killed, fighting bravely, in the process.
As a final note, the lash was used on the back, not the face.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Bearheart
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM

I can't speak for the facts of the story, since I didn't write it. And I have no clue about what individual incidents the writer based the song on. Poetic license is often used by song writers to make a point (see the thread about "Jack Haggerty" in this forum, for instance).
However, if you know anything about the British military you will know that many unofficial attrocities were committed by the officers in charge of the fighting men in order to keep them in line. (A good novel on this theme,based on the facts, is Laurie King's Justice Hall, which deals with the British military practices during WW I.) My guess is that a lash on the face would be one of the lesser evils practiced by the Britsh military at war(or any military force for that matter).

I think what the song does do is paint a fairly accurate picture of the unpleasantness of war. War is crazy and unpredictable and often brings out the worst (and occasionally the best) in people. And it is entirely possible, though not a given, that the writer is in possession of facts that never made it into the history books. Wouldn't be the first time.

I do think that songwriting should reflect the truth-- but often it is a tool for propaganda, ax-grinding or expressing of personal opinions. Still I also judge a song on its literary and musical merits-- this one is good on both counts-- and sometimes a Truth can be expressed when the truth isn't being expressed. The fact that "Jack Haggerty" is not only "made up", but misleading, doesn't stop me appreciating it or singing it. For those who have loved and lost, it's a song that is very relevant.

I would be interested to have a first hand account of the writing of it, Jim, would you know how to reach Don? (I haven't checked out your links but will.)

Bekki

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 07:09 AM

I know a considerable amount about the British military. I know that it has always been comparatively more humane than almost any other in the world, as well as more successful - to the despair of its opponents.
As for the artistic merit of the song, the lyrics at least are a typical example of the teary, bathetic bleating that gives folk music a bad name. The facility with which lies are made up about particular incidents in history reflects the banality of this kind of sentimental, drippy ballad - I could write a dozen a week.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Fergie
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:25 AM

The majority of Irish would'nt agree Ooh-Aah. Stories too numerous to relate, but try Bloody Sunday in Derry in 1974.

In the DT you can find the rest of this ditty

Come tell us how you slew
Those brave Arabs two by two
Like the Zulus they had spears and bows and arrows,
How you bravely slew each one
With your sixteen pounder gun
And you frightened them poor natives to their marrow.

It is called COME OUT YOU BLACK AND TANS

Sláinte
Fergus

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Bearheart
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 04:17 PM

I'm with you Fergus. And I stand by my statements about the British teatment of the rank and file.

The afterward from "Justice Hall":
On June 21, 2001, the Shot at Dawn memorial was unveiled at the Memorial Arboretum in Staffordshire England. It depicts a seventeen-year-old private who was condemned to death, without defence, in the summer of 1915. Behind the blindfolded figure stands a forest of 306 wooden stakes, each representing an executed Commonwealth soldier.

The death penalty for desertion and cowardice was abolished in 1930. In 1997 a review of the cases of the 306 Great War condemned men was begun. In 1998 it was suggested that the names of the executed soldiers might now be added to the country's war memorials. On Rembrance Day 2000 relatives and supporters of the executed soldiers joined the and the two minutes' silenceat the Cenotaph in Whitehall. However the Secretary of State for Defence later stated there would be no posthumous pardon for the men and boys who were shot at dawn."

Many of these soldiers were boys who were accepted into the military even though they were underage, to be cannon fodder, and were shot to make an example to the other soldiers, without benefit of a trial.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:19 AM

Three replies: firstly Bloody Sunday was certainly a bloody mess, but find another military in the world who would take the shit that the British army has taken for thirty odd years in NI and have only one such incident. Israel has a Bloody Sunday every two days! The discipline shown by the army in the face of infinite provocation over such a long time is deeply admirable.Secondly if you don't shoot the Zulu or Arab who is coming at you with his bow and arrow etc, he kills you with it; the British Army should never have been there in the first place, but blame the politicians, not the soldiers. What should they have done, opened their top buttons for the spears? Finally WWI was so appalling that any attempt to make what happened then typical of the general history of the Army is absurd. Considering that the British army had 5 million men under arms by 1918, swollen from a few hundred thousand in 1914, 306 is a tiny number. I wonder how many the French, Germans, Russians shot? A very large number I imagine.
My point is not that British soldiers are saints, but that comparatively they are are a humane bunch. To go back to the song - if they are so dreadful, why the need to make stuff up? Look at the Irish, without the millions of bleating songs about the wicked British that they have, their entire folk culture would collapse.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Bearheart
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:36 PM

Jim, if you are out there and know a way to contact Don CLark I'd still be interested.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Fergie
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 04:00 PM

Ooh Aah

Your latest contribution simply confirms your ignorance and your prejudice, I for one will no longer dignify your ravings with a reply

Goodbye

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:22 PM

Bekki/Bearheart: I don't have contact info for Don Clark, but I bet Ross Sutter or Laura MacKenzie would. See the links I provided above. At that website, they both have their own web addresses and email addresses posted. Failing that, you could try contacting Pierre Delattre through his publisher. I'm rather sure Don still writes for the Wall Street Journal, but I couldn't find any listings of individual reporters at the WSJ website.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: Bearheart
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:36 PM

Thanks Jim. I'll do that. The way I got the song originally was from the tape, which I got from Ross and Laura at Scottish Week at Augusta Heritage Arts Workshops back in the early '80s.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: (Outside the walls of) Bangalore
From: GUEST,Ooh Aah
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 06:57 AM

Fergie: ditto and likewise. Off.