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BS: The Mother of all BS threads

Amos 12 Aug 07 - 02:56 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM
Amos 12 Aug 07 - 03:38 PM
Janie 12 Aug 07 - 03:39 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 07 - 05:33 PM
Acme 12 Aug 07 - 05:44 PM
Amos 12 Aug 07 - 08:42 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 07 - 09:23 PM
Amos 12 Aug 07 - 11:33 PM
Acme 13 Aug 07 - 12:06 AM
MMario 13 Aug 07 - 09:29 AM
Amos 13 Aug 07 - 10:53 AM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 07 - 11:29 AM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 07 - 07:31 PM
Amos 13 Aug 07 - 11:17 PM
Amos 13 Aug 07 - 11:25 PM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 07 - 11:41 PM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 07 - 11:51 PM
Amos 14 Aug 07 - 12:13 AM
Acme 14 Aug 07 - 12:38 AM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 07 - 12:44 AM
Amos 14 Aug 07 - 10:25 AM
Acme 14 Aug 07 - 12:45 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 07 - 01:15 PM
MMario 14 Aug 07 - 01:40 PM
Amos 14 Aug 07 - 01:47 PM
Acme 14 Aug 07 - 01:48 PM
Acme 14 Aug 07 - 02:08 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 07 - 02:38 PM
MMario 14 Aug 07 - 02:44 PM
Amos 14 Aug 07 - 02:59 PM
MMario 14 Aug 07 - 03:02 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 07 - 04:57 PM
Rapparee 14 Aug 07 - 11:25 PM
Acme 14 Aug 07 - 11:29 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 07 - 11:38 PM
Rapparee 15 Aug 07 - 12:06 AM
Acme 15 Aug 07 - 12:58 AM
Rapparee 15 Aug 07 - 09:17 AM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 07 - 01:57 PM
Rapparee 15 Aug 07 - 02:03 PM
Acme 15 Aug 07 - 09:48 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 07 - 10:16 PM
Rapparee 15 Aug 07 - 10:17 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 07 - 10:22 PM
Rapparee 16 Aug 07 - 09:31 AM
Acme 16 Aug 07 - 09:49 AM
Acme 16 Aug 07 - 12:11 PM
Rapparee 16 Aug 07 - 12:35 PM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 07 - 12:40 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 02:56 PM

Suddenly, out of the riing mists of the turgid sea, a shadow looms, gliding through the shadowy dawnlight like a killer whale making his morning patrol. Barely visible through the scope, her nose cutting through the spray like a sharks pectoral, the golden letters on her bow read bright and far, Schooner Mudcat. Quiet orders are passed and with a rattle of tackle and line, the bold fast moving schooner swings to the wind, passing below the bluff squat bow to The Shatner? with only yards to spare, swing around to a parallel track heading toward her swollen ungainly stern. Another order faintly heard through the thinning mist and with a sudden clatter, twenty ports are run back, twnety ugly snouts run out, and twenty matches touched to the fuse. With a shattering roar, a broadside at lethal range sweeps the ungainly ship, and the Shatner's seams are opened in a fell swoop to the hungry, curious, invading sea. She staggers in the water, all way lost, sets back on her stern, leans and shudders as the waves creep higher on her settling flanks. In moments, the schooner has vanished into the mists astern, and the poor, shattered fatboat is awash to her decks, her company scrambling for lifeboats, rafts, and large dining room tables in a desperate effort to survice.

She stalls and shudders in the tide, and the white foam licks her bridge cabin, her ladders, her radar post, and finally her flying bridge. With a final dying tilt, she rolls to the deep and falls toward the bottom. The pale face of her owner, jammed behind the wheel in the bridge, vanishes in the green glimmer of the closing waters. Then she is gone. The schooner's wake subsides, and all is at peace upon the waters.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM

You just cannot resist responding in kind, can you? ;-)

Nicely written, though I would not have used "turgid" in that context.

Was the broadside delivered from abeam of "The Shatner", whilst passing on the opposite course or from directly astern? We need to know for technical reasons relating to naval tactics.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 03:38 PM

A broadside cannot, by definition, be delivered from astern.

Turgid, by definition, means "Full, but not swollen." AMong other things.

As for responding in kind, I hope you did not believe you had some exclusive claim to fevered, hyper-maniacal delusions rendered into print.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 03:39 PM

Several hours later, after the fog has lifted, a small day sailer happens by. Seeing an object floating on the gentle swells, they slow and alter their heading to take a look.

"I think it's a dead sea otter," says one of the party as they approach. "How sad."

"Nope. Smells to bad for that," replies the captain. They move on.

Untouched and unobserved, the toupee finally sinks below the surface of the sea.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 05:33 PM

Ah! The thrill of delight...I have caught you in an error, Amos. A grievous error.

I must savour the moment. Wait....





Mmmmmmmm...




Okay, then. ;-)

A "broadside", my friend, is a broadside even if it is fired at a barrel, a seagull, a phantasm, or an empty piece of ocean. It is not defined by its target but by its source...the ship doing the firing. A broadside (in traditional wooden ships) is a simultaneous firing of all guns capable of bearing to either the port or starboard beam. In that sense it is distinguished from firing a partial volley or a "ripple" volley (a series of shots from those guns, one after another) as would often be done when crossing the stern or bow of another ship...reason being, a full broadside in such a case would cause about 3/4 of one's guns to simply miss the target, as the shots would pass harmlessly on either side of it and into the ocean!

You can fire a broadside at the bow or stern of an enemy ship if you so desire, and it has been done. It would still do a great deal of damage, particularly from astern, as wooden ships were least protected at their stern, and as the cannonballs would then fly the length of the enemy hull, inside the ship, causing terrible damage.

However, it would be more effective when passing the stern to fire one gun after another, in sequence, as they bear on the target. Not as dramatic, but far more effective. This, with a well-trained crew, could ensure 100% of your shots hitting the target. With a very poorly trained crew, one might best just fire a simultaneous broadside, I suppose, since they could handle that degree of complexity.

When passing beam-on to the enemy, a broadside is normally a good way to go, although it depends on the situation. A ripple volley is okay from the beam too. They are about equally effective in terms of doing damage.

A broadside, however, is more intimidating to the enemy, since it all happens in one overwhelming moment. This is partly why it is beloved in films and books, and indeed was popular with the real fighting ships as well. It's the most dramatic attack possible. It's also the easiest kind of attack to issue an order for: a ripple volley is much more complex, needs expert timing, and demands a highly trained crew and officers, as previously noted.

I could elaborate further, if you want me to.

*******

"Turgid", as you define it, doesn't work very well in that context.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 05:44 PM

I prefer "turgid" in a different context altogether. . .















. . . water balloons!

SPLAT!!! on Amos' broad side

SPLAT!!! on Little Hawk's scrawny butt


Now that felt good. 100 degrees here today. Gotta do something to stay cool!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 08:42 PM

My, you do rattle on, don't you? If you read the description it is obvious the schooner was running alongside on a parallel, but opposite, heading to the fatboat. While you could technically fire a broadside at the stern of a retreating vessel, it would not be very efficient.

As to the use of "turgid sea", I think you will find plenty of precedent for the phrase, which has been used among others by such luminaries as Matthew Arnold and Edgar Allen Poe:

About noon, as nearly as we could guess, our attention was again arrested by the appearance of the sun. It gave out no light, properly so called, but a dull and sullen glow without reflection, as if all its rays were polarized. Just before sinking within the turgid sea, its central fires suddenly went out, as if hurriedly extinguished by some unaccountable power.

So I find there is adequate usage established to justify the phrase, even in the face of your disapprobation, Sirrah.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 09:23 PM

Don't be ungracious, Amos. I asked in all honesty whether you meant a broadside from the side, while passing...or a broadside from the rear, after passing on the side and cutting behind the target ship (a most desirable way to attack if it can be arranged). The stern shot is the absolute best way to smash up a wooden fighting ship...they move rather slowly, so the fact that it's "retreating", as you say, would be no problem at all. It could have been either way, going by what you wrote, and I simply wanted to know which way you meant. Little did I dream that you would proceed to embarass yourself by getting all defensive about it, and in the process misdefining the term "broadside".

I hereby delay your promotion to First Lieutenant, Mr Jessup. You shall have to do better than that next time. You must disabuse yourself of the notion that absolutely everything I say to you in every post I type is an "attack" of some sort. That question about the orientation of the broadside was not. It was simply a matter of curiosity. Battle tactics interest me, and I wondered how you had envisioned the maneuver.

Anyway, you know perfectly well that the "Captain" would never allow his ship to be ambushed in that fashion. Not a chance. 155 episodes of Star Trek prove it. Even when he is ambushed, he recovers from it almost immediately and then deals the fatal blow to the enemy. It's in the script. Everybody knows that. It's a known fact, like the fact that Larry Flynt does not object to dirty pictures, and the Pope doesn't "----" in the woods.

Therefore your scenario does not ring true.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 11:33 PM

Codwallop, sir. You claim expertise you do not show. The broadside that destroyed your fatship was perfectly defined, perfectly delivered and perfectly lethal.

You are building a bit of a reputation as a polysyllabic whiner, Mister Hawk. Pray do not give yourself airs.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 12:06 AM

Stilly takes aim at Amos' fat boat and lets fly

Splat!!!


Little Hawk's dachshund scoots out of the way as he sees two more lobbed from beyond the back fence toward Little Hawk's encyclopedia set he has spread open on his picnic table in the back yard

Splat!!!
Splat!!!





Splat!!!
Splat!!!
SPLAT!!!

Shatner ducks and runs for cover, though he was planning a surprise visit to his ol' pal George


SPLAT!!!
SPLAT!!!
SPLAT!!!

Now play nice. Mom's laughing her arse off at the two of you and said I could throw as many water balloons at you as I want.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: MMario
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 09:29 AM

LH - you forget that the "Schooner MudCat" is run not just by 'A' Captain - but 'THE' Captain. His experience and knowledge can run circles around willy the sh*tner.

And if that weren't enough - his crew are the maniacal Women. If they can manage to have a celler on a boat - they can manage a broadside without sh*tner noticing.

Janie - sorry I wasn't home when you discovered your true MOAB roots - but I was off witnessing the wedding of one of the multitudinous nephews.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 10:53 AM

Silly Stilly:

It's not MY fatboat, for goodness' sake! That was my name for the bulbous wallowing thing named after Shatner that Little Hawk, a man of precious little time at sea, invented. Bomb away, but you'll have to haul it back from Davy Jones to hit anything.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:29 AM

Har! Har! The BS never ends.

I like your idea with the water ballons, Stilly. My dachshund simply hates water balloons. He would be gone in a flash. As for Mr Shatner, he'd probably smile and make some quip about the humidity being even higher than normal...

Amos, my lad, you have again f*cked up. I have told you and told you and TOLD you time and again on this forum...the expression is "codswallop", NOT "codwallop".

CODSWALLOP! With an "s" after "cod".

Don't make me have to tell you this again. If you are going to blather on in that fashion, then at least get the words right.

Mario -

A question: Who IS "THE Captain"?

I was not initially questioning the effectiveness of the broadside, only the direction from wich it came, relative to "The Shatner".

Still, upon further consideration I have to say this...a single broadside cannot normally sink a wooden ship, unless it's a very small ship being fired on by a much larger one. "The Shatner" is not small. It's galleon-sized. A "schooner" is not large.

A single broadside from a large vessel can, in some cases, severely disable a wooden ship, specially if it brings down one or more masts, but it cannot sink it...unless it should happen to cause a secondary explosion of the ammunition magazines. (Such things have happened.) Wooden ships did not tend to sink easily, but generally required an enormous number of hits to batter them before they ever sank. Indeed, they seldom sank, but were usually simply battered into surrender over a period of perhaps 20 minutes...to as long as several hours of hard combat. Sometimes they sank later, due to the cumulative effect of leaks that overwhelmed the repair efforts.

Now, schooners...schooners are smallish vessels, built mainly for speed. They carry few guns, and the guns they carry are quite small. They don't carry ship-killing guns, in effect, they carry man-killing guns. No schooner would ever have the means to fire a 20-gun broadside or the means to deliver a broadside that could cripple a large vessel in the manner described in Amos' post.

Therefore his post is codswallop.

Here's a list of some smaller ships from the War of 1812. Note the schooners, and their guns...

135 - "Raven," U.S. transport schooner, one gun.


136 - "Asp," U.S. armed schooner, one gun.


137 - "Ontario," U.S. armed schooner, two guns.


138 - "Scourge," U.S. armed schooner, nine guns.


139 - "Fair American," U.S. armed schooner, two guns.


140 - "Conquest," U.S. armed schooner, two guns.


141 - "Julia," U.S. armed schooner, two guns.


142 - "Governor Tompkins," U.S. armed schooner, six guns.


143 - "Pert," U.S. armed schooner, one gun.


144 - "Hamilton," U.S. armed schooner, ten guns.


145 - "Growler," U.S. armed schooner, two guns.


146 - "Lady of the Lake," U.S. armed despatch schooner, one gun.


147 - "Oneida," U.S. brig-of-war, sixteen guns.


148 - "Madison," U.S. sloop-of-war, 24 guns.


149 - "Lark," U.S. transport schooner, one gun.


150 - "Fly," U.S. transport schooner, one gun.


The most well armed schooner in the list (the "Scourge") mounts 9 guns. That would be 4 guns a side, and a bow chaser, I should think. That makes for a 4-gun broadside.

For a 20 gun broadside of killing force such as Amos describes, I think you would have to have had a frigate. That's the "heavy cruiser" of its day, just one step below a ship of the line. A really well-armed frigate can mount long 18-pounders, and it can definitely cripple another ship with a single close range volley that hits in the right places...but it's doubtful that it would sink it outright.

And remember....a ship that is broad in the beam can absorb a hell of a lot of hits and still stay afloat. Need I say more? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:31 PM

Excuse the overflow of italics...it happened accidentally.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:17 PM

As a relative newcomer, sir, you can be forgiven for retreating into dry minutiae from historical tomes, but it will not aid your case. It is understandable that you never sailed upon the Mudcat Schooner, sang her songs, or watched her twenty finely trained gunnery teams leap to their guns, run out a broadside and reload in the twinkling of an eye, The Nudcat Schooner is as large as a frigate and fast as a tea clipper, handy as a virgin on a dance floor and as seaworthy as a killer whale. She eats fatboats like yon Shat for breakfast when riled, and is the essence of hospitality and sea-going style when befriended. Those who know her know she is better as a friend. But, as I say, much of this was long before your time.

Thanks for catching my typographical error. Why did you not end your rabid spate of italics? Over-emphasis kills the message, you know.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:25 PM

As for Star Trek episodes, it might be tme someone offered you a small dose of Santa-elixir, and revealed the truth to you, even if it means braving the shock of disappointment and disillusionment you will have to go throguh. The Enterprise, the Klingons, Mister Sulu, Data, and Captain Kirk are just as real as the Easter Bunny, lad. They don't exist in real life, only in the fevered fantasies of those who find some kind of deluded hope in them that they cannot manage to make for themselves in the real world. Snap out of it!.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:41 PM

Heh! That must be quite a schooner. I hope a model of it becomes available soon, one of those great plank-on-frame kits by Constructo or Artesania Latina. It sounds like a beauty.

Here's a picture of such a kit of the American armed schooner, "Independence"...

the "Independence"

Here's a galleon...about how I envision the Shatboat...

Spanish Galleon "San Francisco"

Here's the American frigate "Lafayette", aka British frigate "Hermione"...a beauty! I'm not sure who captured it from whom, but it apparently changed hands at least once.

"Hermione/Lafayette"

And finally, a ship of the line: the immense Spanish "San Juan Nepomuceno". Spanish ships tended to be named for saints and religious figures or icons.

72-gun ship of the line



Regarding the italics, I already said that it happened accidentally. I must've made a typo in the html code.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:51 PM

"As for Star Trek episodes, it might be tme (sic) someone offered you a small dose of Santa-elixir, and revealed the truth to you, even if it means braving the shock of disappointment and disillusionment you will have to go throguh (sic). The Enterprise, the Klingons, Mister Sulu, Data, and Captain Kirk are just as real as the Easter Bunny, lad. They don't exist in real life, only in the fevered fantasies of those who find some kind of deluded hope in them that they cannot manage to make for themselves in the real world."

No! You mean it????? My God!!! (sob!) Who'd-a thunk it? I shall have to end it all now by some hideous means. My life is OVER. I simply can't go on knowing that Star Trek...is.....not....real! It's like finding out that....that Milli Vanilli lip-synced some of their songs or...or realizing that Sid Vicious actually wasn't a very good musician at all.   

Oh, the HUMANITY!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:13 AM

There have been many fine ships sailing under the flag of the United States, many of which had all the guns needed to splinter yon Shat from guggle to zatch, pintle to dolphin-striker, and beam-end port to starboard. Splinter her. A shambles. Don't forget that a single whale, with only two well aimed running blows, completely sank the fully-equipped whaling ship Essex in five minutes. Imagine what damage twenty such blows, striking at once, would have done to her.

Thus, the fatboat.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:38 AM

They call me Ishmael.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:44 AM

Why do you hate Shatner so, Amos? What has the man ever done to you?

I think he has, sometimes by design and sometimes inadvertently, provided much amusement to millions of people. He is the butt of jokes from here to eternity, and he knows it. He is gracious about that, and even encourages it. I can supply a whole bunch of links to hilarious Shatner parodies on Youtube by The Simpsons, Family Guy, and standup comedians of all sorts. This is not someone that anyone needs to hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 10:25 AM

You remind me of the quick-witted Republican neocon whose reparteee included "Why do you hate freedom?"

I do not hate Shatner per se. I think what irritates me is your campaign to elevate him anywhere out of his purely mediocre actual category. I think spending your glory coins on mediocrity is a sin. Hence, I have fought your campaign whenever it raised its unpleasant little head. It has nothing to do with hate of Shatner himself. But just look how much more interesting the bridge of the Enterprise became when Jean Luc Picard took over.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:45 PM

Absolutely!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 01:15 PM

Oh, I couldn't agree more with that last statement, Amos. Picard was a quantum leap for Star Trek, as was the whole "Next Generation" show. Patrick Stewart is a superb actor, and he gave real dignity and depth to the part he played as Picard.

The original Star Trek show was pretty progressive for its time, but by a few years later it was looking quite silly and dated. It was a joke in comparison to "Next Generation" which was a genuinely fine TV show in every respect.

I had taken note that Spaw decided to make a running joke out of Neil Young. This was clever on Spaw's part, I thought, because while Neil Young is certainly a fine musician, he's also a bit odd in some respects. He's unusual. Quirky. This made him a fine device for composing some ridiculous stuff like the NYCFTTS. It didn't say much about Neil Young, really, but it was fun.

Was Spaw committing a "sin" by spending his glory coins in that fashion? Well, not in my opinion. His life is his to do with as he sees fit.

I thought it would be fun to do something a bit similar....take a real person to make a running joke around...so I chose Shatner. I could have chosen anyone. I could have chosen Bob Dylan, Jerry Lewis, Bill Clinton, Leonard Cohen, Adam Sandler...who knows? I chose Shatner. He's Canadian, which always helps as far as I'm concerned. He's also very quirky, to say the least. He's an incredibly apt subject for a running joke...and has been lampooned endlessly by some of the greats in comedy. Did they commit a sin by spending their glory coins in that fashion?

And who are you to decide how anyone else should spend his glory coins?

The question of the neocon "Why do you hate freedom?" is of course a silly one, setting up a straw man. No one hates freedom, per se. But...they DO hate other people's freedom when it expresses itself in a way that they are not in sympathy with for whatever reason. They hate other's expressions of freedom, but not their own expressions of freedom. Therefore, they are only selectively in favour of freedom. Their true desire is to be free themselves, but to control others. And THAT is the curse of human existence, and the cause of almost all the trouble in this world.

You have chosen to oppose my running jokes about Shatner. This indicates that you hate me expressing my freedom in that fashion, and you imagine that you can define it as a "sin"! What hubris. You are attempting to control me...to harass me into no longer making those running jokes here, because you don't happen to find them amusing.

That, frankly, is none of your business. It smacks of a view of self which is positively godlike in nature. That could be a sin too, Amos, the sin of pride.

If you don't like a particular style of humor, if it doesn't tickle your funnybone, well, just ignore it then, and concentrate on something else that you do find funny. You are not in this world to serve as my conscience, my mentor, or my spiritual guide, and you are not my surrogate "dad" either.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 01:40 PM

by a few years later it was looking quite silly

If I recall - it started out that way.

while you may be attempting something similar to the NYCFTTS - it didn't and doesn't work - maybe if you had concentrated more on the School for bad acting.

'spaw created a facility and his stuff centered around that; you created a school for bad acting - a plausible start - but then concentrate on the person, which just doesn't work.

"hate" doesn't come into it for me - and I doubt if it does for Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 01:47 PM

MWahahahahaha!! Thank Gawd for that, M. Hack!! And thank you for a spicy rejoinder.

I have always assumed that you will continue to write and post and speak as you jolly well choose, as will I. If my acerbic comments about the callow style of your humor gives you pause, all the beetter -- chalk it up to a growing experience. If not, as you will. Chalk it up to a not-growing experience.

Enjoy!


Your Surrogate Dad


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 01:48 PM

Hey, Mom, look out in the yard, under the vitex. I put a small layer of sand to level a spot and put some bricks as the base for a garden tinaja. A pool of water in a shady area at ground level. It's one of those big plastic saucers you put under plastic or ceramic planters. I'm hoping some of the birds that hang out in the vitex will drop down for a drink and I can watch them. (I repositioned it this morning and disturbed a gecko who had already taken up residence in the bricks).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:08 PM

Hmmmm. 50 more and there's a real nice spinner up for grabs.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:38 PM

Mario, I don't think it's fair to say that the show Star Trek "started out that way" (looking quite silly). I remember what TV shows were like in that era. Other space stories at that time, such as "Lost in Space" were utterly puerile compared to Star Trek. The Star Trek show was extremely innovative, mainly because of some of the very imaginative scripts penned by Gene Rodenberry, who also was responsible later for the "Next Generation". Rodenberry was attempting to write some serious stories with some real philosophical meat in them, presenting a view of, for example, a society without money! Without poverty. Without material or social or racial or cultural inequalities of any sort. A society with one united government, rather than what we have...a world at war with itself. A society where the only impediment to reaching for the highest accomplishments was one's own laziness or lack of ability.

That's utterly revolutionary in the context of 20th Century America. It would be a dream come true, as far as I'm concerned. I'm frankly surprised that the show wasn't attacked for being subversive communist propaganda or something like that...but they were protected by the fact that it was merely "science fiction"...therefore, not to be taken seriously????

Well, Rodenberry was dealing with serious stuff there, and very important stuff. He was pointing the way toward what we as a race could achieve on this planet, and should achieve, but haven't yet had the maturity to achieve.

Aside from the social themes, the show basically ran on the interplay between Spock, Kirk, and McCoy...with other characters playing rather minor roles. The McCoy character was over the top...pretty corny at times...but the Spock character was an inspired one for the time and had an enormous fan base. It was good TV for its time.

The quality of the scripts was badly compromised by the standard Hollywood prime time nonsense: "You gotta have lotsa fist fights and good lookin' babes or Joe Public ain't gonna watch it, cos, never forget: Joe Public is a drooling idiot."

Rodenberry must have been in a constant struggle with that dumbing down of his creation, because his scripts clearly indicate his desire for a more cerebral show...a desire which was better realized later on Next Generation, where Picard proved to be the perfect Captain for a more cerebral approach.

Now, as regards the WSSBA...I did that now and then just for fun, but it was not a major concern. It wasn't that I wanted to create something just like the NFCFFTS as a main thing. I didn't. I just wanted to play around with Shatner some, because I think his peculiar acting style is rather funny in a number of respects, and because I have a lingering fondness for the whole cultural phenomenon OF Star Trek.

The fact that numberless comedians have thought the same thing ("Shatner is funny...Star Trek is funny...I think I'll make some jokes based on that."), that fact gives me comfort, as I am in good company.

I make jokes about Star Trek and Shatner because I have an affection for the show and for the characters on that show. It was part of my youth.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:44 PM

presenting a view of, for example, a society without money! Without poverty. Without material or social or racial or cultural inequalities of any sort. A society with one united government, rather than what we have...a world at war with itself. A society where the only impediment to reaching for the highest accomplishments was one's own laziness or lack of ability.

and presenting it poorly enough that many viewers didn't realize thee was no money in the trek universe until they were specifically told sol.

As far as the nor racial, social, politcal or culteral inequalites - those premises were laughable based on their own scripts.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:59 PM

Hey Mom!!

I have to go out of town for a few days, so MM has volunteered to pick fights with Little hawk for until I get back. 'Kay!! Love you, back Friday night.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:02 PM

hey! Does that mean I have to talk about the Shat? Because if it does, I'm not taking the job.

I'll fight with LH about other things.

Like dachshunds -
what do you get a Dachshund with a Yorkie? A Dorkie!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 04:57 PM

"and presenting it poorly enough that many viewers didn't realize thee was no money in the trek universe until they were specifically told so"

Ah. Well, then, perhaps most American TV viewers are drooling idiots with no capacity to draw conclusions of their own? Maybe the guys in Hollywood were right about the average intelligence of their audience? ;-)

The thing that most interested me about Star Trek was the social justice and equality in that fictional society, and it was plainly obvious. If you want a peaceful and cooperative society of highly motivated people, you can do it first and foremost by one simple thing: remove money from the equation altogether, and see that education, employment, and a good lifestyle are freely available to all....but that you will advance no further than your own efforts to do so make possible.

That is a brilliant and just way to run a society. It indicates real responsibility rather than pork barrel rule by the most clever and ruthless, which is what we have now. We are living like barbarians compared to how we could be living. It's shameful.

Roddenberry clearly had a vision of a much more progressive society, but he had to work within the cultural presumptions of the time...or the show would never have been accepted by the Network and no one would have ever seen it. Thus, the status of the female officers in the 1960's crew was much secondary...Uhura as Communications Officer and Nurse Chapel as assistant to Doctor McCoy, that was about it as I recall. It took until the 80's to bring in a female Doctor and a female Security Chief and until, I think, sometime in the 90's to bring in a female Commanding Officer (Janeway) on the Enterprise.

Those were indications of the quality not of the shows themselves, but of the society in which those shows were chosen to be aired. They aired what they figured the general public would be willing to watch.

Like I said, at present we are a society of barbarians, comparatively speaking, and I've known that all my life. It's painfully, blatantly obvious. We have barely begun to build a real planetary society here. We're still engaging in vicious robber baron and caveman tactics and acting like we were proud of it!

If I was a visitor from space, I'd watch this place from a safe distance and wait for it to grow up a bit before dreaming of trying to make any friendly trade agreements or anything else like that. Earthlings are dangerous, mainly because they are so ignorant.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:25 PM

Hi, Mom!

Your favorite kid just got back from Canada! Brought you LOTS of presents, including a liter of the 151 proof rum you like so much.

More later.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:29 PM

The thing that most interested me about Star Trek was the social justice and equality in that fictional society, and it was plainly obvious. [snip]

Roddenberry clearly had a vision of a much more progressive society, but he had to work within the cultural presumptions of the time...or the show would never have been accepted by the Network and no one would have ever seen it.


I'll back up a little here. I agree that Picard was a better actor in the role he played than I thought Shatner was in the Kirk he played. But, the first program was remarkable, as you say, for the amazing amount of philosophy and mythology that made it into the scripts. It set a standard that the others improved upon and that many other programs couldn't begin to touch.

Big differences between that two that we see particularly clearly from this distance are the production values. The early one, to quote Spock, was "stone knives and bear skins" to some of the series that followed. (And after the first series Roddenberry must have ended up with an amazing collection of salt and pepper shakers. That's what they used for many of the odd electronic hand tools in the programs. Sounds were added so you'd think they actually did something).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:38 PM

Yeah. ;-) The production values went way, way up as time went by. And so did the acting, specially in the case of the Next Generation edition.

Hey, Rapaire! You made it back alive from Canada. Awright!!! How was it? I know you're probably pretty devastated that Shane was off-planet during your entire visit. Just think, you could've hoisted a beer with him and exchanged cultural viewpoints...

He would not have refused the 151 proof rum either.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 12:06 AM

Lambs. $12.95 or 2 for $20 (CDN) at the duty-free shop at the border.

A liter should last me until I get to Victoria in 2010 or until I get more, whichever comes first.

Montana was filled with haze and smoke. Mostly smoke. At 4 p.m. today we stopped and the sun appeared as a red dot about the size of a pencil eraser.

And...I have a confession to make. As you know, Amos has for some time now been accusing me of being a Republican.

I have to tell the truth, I feel that I must "out" myself. And now I can do it.

Yes, I'm really Karl Rove.

There. I've said it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 12:58 AM

You've mixed up your monikers again, Rapaire. It's "Roving Mike," not Mikarl Rove.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 09:17 AM

No, I'm really the late Karl Rove. I've been working from my office in the Western White House in the Marshall Public Library in Pocatello, Idaho as a security measure. I figured it out last night.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 01:57 PM

Well, "Karl", you've achieved a lot in the last 8 years or so. What do you plan to do next?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 02:03 PM

I want to contact the most powerful person in North America, "Shane" McBride, and Take Over Everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 09:48 PM

Before you do that, Karl, break in to your trust fund and send me a few hundred $$. I had to buy textbooks for Moonglow this evening. It wasn't a pretty sight.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:16 PM

That is a superb plan, Karl, and I hope you realize it, but you will have to wait until Shane is returned to this planet by the aliens who recently abducted him.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:17 PM

If she REALLY wants and education she will find a way. Hard work and more hard work is what succeeds in George W. Bush's America. She should take her example from him.

--Karl


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:22 PM

Books? Who needs 'em? Shane quit school after Grade 9, and look how great he has done in life, eh?

I think the only books he has read in the last few years were "Grapes", by Don Cherry, and a dating manual called "How To Date a Sudbury Skank" that was written anonymously by someone in Sudbury, North Ontario.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:31 AM

The last-named book was written by Don McBride. It was originally written on a Big Chief tablet in pencil as a gift to his little brother, the late "Shane" McBride. "Shane" photocopied it and the rest is a footnote to a footnote to a footnote to publishing history.

We librarians have Our Ways Of Knowing And Finding Out. Nothing bibliographic is hidden from us.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:49 AM

He looks in his bibliofile.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Acme
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 12:11 PM

Hot again today, Mom, and there are caterpillars everywhere. An explosion of them in the neighborhood. It was all of that rain this year, I guess. I only mention that because you've been sitting still on the porch long enough to have a couple of dozen of them on your skirt and the back of your dress where they crawled up your chair. Now move slowly and we'll just brush them off. Don't want to squash bug guts on this pretty dark green gown.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 12:35 PM

There's a wildfire up in the hills behind the Library right now. Up where they're building some new, expen$ive houses...with only one narrow road to and from right now. Lightning, apparently.

This burn is about a half-mile away; the fire dept. is on it.

This is the second fire so far this morning, and it's only 10:35 a.m.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Mother of all BS threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 12:40 PM

Oddly enough, we have had virtually NO tent caterpillars here this year. We usually get millions of them. This does not bode well for the Monarch Butterfly, but the local trees are very happy about it.


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