Scotland/England musicians crossover

Subject: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:56 AM

Can anyone tell me why there seems to be so little crossover between Scotland and England in terms of musicians. I have had a good look at festivals over the years and very few Scottish acts appear on the English festivals and very few English acts appear in Scotland. There are lots of acts from outside both say USA Canada,France Holland etc who are around.

Ideas on a postcard or better stil get off your bums and travel across the border. Both sides the tweed and all that.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: smallpiper
Date: 08 May 03 - 11:55 AM

I'm not sure that what you are saying is correct (not sure mind so you could be).But there are plenty of Scots living and playing music in England and vice versa. As for booking acts at festivals that may have more to do with plain old fashioned economics. Its a long way from Perth to Sidmouth.

However the very excellent Deaf Shepherd are playing at Brigg Fiddle Fest in a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: IanC
Date: 08 May 03 - 12:08 PM

"Noddy" - I think you're just plain wrong. Quite a large proportion of the acts booked by folk clubs etc. round here (North Hertfordshire) are from Scotland.

Are you just trolling for a reply, or do you seriously think you're right?

With the demise of BS, I'm wndering if this is a new way of introducing BS style threads into the mainstream Mudcat forum.

I'm probably wrong.

:-)

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: Strupag
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:58 PM

I used to run a folk club in Ullapool and we had "hunners" of guests from south of the border, across the Irish sea, mainland Europe and across the big pond.
Now when I think back I can remember names like, Vin Garbut, Tony Rose, Martin Windam Reed, Safron Summerfield, Leon Russelson, Nick Jones, Alan Taylor, Eddie Walker etc.
The band scene was different. Although there were, and are, good English bands, the cultural difference is more obvious when you compare them to celtic bands. There are, however, loads of Scottish bands regularly playing in English venues.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:21 PM

I play with the Boat Band which is pretty much English in line-up( with the occasional Scots, French and Louisiana exception over the years) and we've played pretty much everywhere in Scotland. Including St Kilda, incidentally, which is more than the average Scottish band manages.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:37 AM

there are always a few exceptions to prove the rule!!

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:27 AM

There is always a strong Scottish contingent at the English National. Does the Scottish National return the compliment?

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 11 May 03 - 01:03 PM

Hi
All I know is that me and Nancy used to do loads of small folk club gigs in Scotland up until about ten years ago. Then it stopped, and since then we haven't played anywhere up there apart from once or twice at Celtic Connections, maybe once at the Lemon Tree in Aberdeen, and non-folk gigs at the Bongo Club in Edingburgh.
My knowledge of the Scottish scene now is that it is very divided between the big modern bands like The Peatbog Faeries, who up until recently regularly refused English work in favour of touring abroad, and more traditional acts which include The Poozies and the Harp Society or Gaelic societies and small folk clubs and festivals. Ben's perception of the English scene is that we don't want them, which I know is not true. All i say to him is that the Battlefield Band did great trade in England for years, as did the other big Scots folkie acts, and he refuses to believe me. There may be an explanation in the thought that big bands did find it very difficult to get work wherever they were from in the Eighties, which is when Ben started gigging and formed his opinions. Until people like the Barely Works came along it was my experience that solo and duo song acts, or at least totally acoustic, did best in England (Dick Gaughan, Vin Garbutt, Rory Macleod, my Dad, the Wilsons and Watersons, Swan Arcade,etc), while dance bands developed their own thing (Gas Mark 5, Edward the Second) and big starry rock festivals like Cambridge were still rare and tended to book acts like Buddy Guy or Michelle Shocked from over the water. Most English festivals couldn't have coped with the roots-rock thing a lot of Scots youngsters were trying out, and there were not yet Arts Centres to bulk up folk club gigs, which they also couldn't have played at.
The first young Scottish act I remember doing well down here was Catriona Macdonald, in a duo with Ian Lowthian. Sileas seemed to do alright as well, and I can only conclude that it was because they were small enough to cope with folk clubs and touring costs.
Obviously I can't speak for the Scottish people, and this is only rough theorising. I drove from Penzance to Worthing yesterday and did a gig and then drove to Robin Hood's Bay and arrived at six in the morning so forgive me if this is a bit patchy. I have been thinking about this paradox for a long time and have many more theories which I will have to share another time!!
There are so many fantastic musicians up there, but the scene is very two-tiered and the "traditional" English routes to becoming well known-through the festivals and folk clubs-is not well-worn or known. Bands since Shooglenifty have started to realise they can tour here and are trickling down, but it is taking a while. i find that bands that make the journey invariably do well and are welcomed, although there may not be the support network of decent agents who know what to do with them yet. Agents in England certainly don't seem to be able to book decent Scottish tours for people like me, don' t know why it is. For going up North, I have no idea what the shape of the touring circuit is as we never get booked there. It is one of the main reason I moved to Scotland, to see what it is like and if there is any work. I am starting to get bits and pieces now but i have been there for over five years and the bulk of my work remains in England.
There was something else...the rise of the big European Celtic festivals has also seen a marked decrease in the amount of work I get in Europe, and a marked increase in the fortunes of bands like Capercaillie and the Shoogles and Peatbogs. That's all I can think of right now!
brain hurty.....
eliza C

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: Bassic
Date: 11 May 03 - 09:13 PM

Eliza,

Thanks for having the "balls" to regularly contribute to the "Cat". You can give a context to issues that appear here which, for me, always adds to the debate.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 12 May 03 - 04:19 AM

Thanks for that Eliza. You put it better than me.
The Big bands seem to be able to beak through now and then but there ought to be more.

The Birnam Institute is a good sized venue, just north of Perth and across the river from Dunkeld, Douggie Maccleans home. He plays there regularly. That might be a good one for you and several fair-sized venues in Edinburgh which itself is teeming with talent. The Pleasance Bar? is one of the big ones organised by "Paddy" Ebort.
A friend of mine Nick Allmark runs the small club at Aberfeldy but he also books local Parish halls for bigger audiences which seems to be the way when there is no theatre type venue.
On the west coast An Aird in Fort William is another big venue. I hope you can make it to one or other some time and get a tour together.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 12 May 03 - 05:01 AM

Eliza forgot to mention the Stirling Folk Club and the Glenfarg Folk Club which are booth good sized clubs. You can easily get their details.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,eliza C
Date: 12 May 03 - 11:16 AM

hi
The National Festival in Sutton Bonnington is supposed to be the British National, which is why they have Scots acts and acts from (stretching it, obviously) Ireland as well as English people. It is my experience also, as much as I love and admire them (as most English folkies do), the Scots will dismiss many things that happen in England as English and will not attend, such as the Folk Awards and the National, despite the best efforts of the organisers. I always thought it was a shame that Simon Thoumire started a specifically Scottish Young Folk Award, when they could easily take part in and win the existing award..as Give Way winning last year demonstrated. Maybe they should move it every year, have it in Edinburgh or Glasgow maybe a couple of times. Are English acts allowed to take part in the Scottish event? Should we have an exclusively English event? Of course, we would be criticised for that. Sigh...as I say, I love them, but they drive me crazy!! :)
eliza

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: smallpiper
Date: 12 May 03 - 12:57 PM

wonder why that is? Sadly a lot of English think being british is being english (as demonstrated in footie all of the time)and the scots thing could be a backlash against that. Who knows!

I think a roving Folk festival of Britain would be a cool idea, to include all cultures including imigrant ones. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 14 May 03 - 04:30 AM

sounds good to me. but full of logistical problems.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: smallpiper
Date: 14 May 03 - 04:36 AM

I wouldn't want to try and organise it thats for sure ... I just have the bright ideas and leave the rest up to capable people! Eliza C is bound to know the right sort for this kind of venture :-)

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:58 AM

No pressure Eliza .just think of it as a work in progress!

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 May 03 - 02:05 PM

O.k., here's your model: the National Folk Festival, going on around the U.S. since 1934. It's a travelling, multi-ethnic festival, highlighting the cultures of each city or region it visits. The current approach is to spend three years in each location, to give local organizers the hang of it, with the goal of a festival continuing after the "National" organization moves on.

That link's to the generic background, on the web site of the National Council for Traditional Arts, here is the link to the info on the current festival.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 May 03 - 02:13 PM

A little more on the U.S.'s National Folk Festival - you'll notice by the artists listed, that although local culture is highlighted, the festival is still a national festival -- artists come from all over.

Also, I'd think that given the more limited geography of the U.K., it'd be a snap for you folks (relatively speaking)! :-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 14 May 03 - 03:27 PM

http://www.thenationalfolkfestival.co.uk/htmfiles/nfs_mainset.htm is the web address for The National in Scotland. This guest list is apperantly not completed and only includes those confirmed.
      
cheers

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 May 03 - 02:03 PM

Hmm. Sort of seems a pity to have a split festival. And where does that leave Wales?

~ Becky

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: smallpiper
Date: 15 May 03 - 04:49 PM

The Welsh have had their national festival going for oddles of years the(forgive the spelling) Istedford has been going for god knows how long. My Dad played at one before I was born won some competition for Irish fiddle playing at it.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 16 May 03 - 03:54 AM

Hello Desert Dancer Wales is west of England where it has always been.

Subject: RE: Scotland/England musicians crossover
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 16 May 03 - 12:34 PM

HA! (=LOL in cyberparlance, but slightly more sarcastic in tone)

So, anyway, it appears you've got three "national" festivals and not a lot of unity of feeling, which leaves you back with the original question of the thread...

~ B in T