All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Apr 15 - 03:34 AM

I think its known all over the British Isles because of the very popular 1960s version by Kenneth McKellar, often heard on the White Heather Club, mentioned above in this thread but in largely negative terms.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: GUEST,Mark Olson
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 09:34 PM

And btw, it is Scots, but! sung all over the B. Isles.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: GUEST,Mark Olson
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 09:32 PM

Actual title is "The Lewis Bridal Song" from the Isle of Lewis.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 06:04 PM

Oh, and creel - when I was little we called the big pannier baskets slung either side of a donkey to collect seaweed or turf creels. These things.

However, creels could also be any kind of large basket. Personally I'd plump for peat (in other words, turf for burning) in the creel, meaning she always had a warm fire; the hearth being the centre of the Gaelic home.

Rowan is indeed mountain ash, and grows happily in the acid soil of the Atlantic coast of Ireland, and I'm sure of Scotland too.

A shieling is originally, I think, a bothy thrown up to store feed for animals while booleying; by extension it's a little home. The lover in My Lagan Love likes to steal into his mot's "shieling lorn".

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:50 PM

Scottish, Scottish, Scottish, Scottish, definitely Scottish!

Máire in Irish is pronounced kind of like Moira. In Scots Gaedhlig it's more like Marie, with the emphasis on the Ma.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:38 AM

In Ireland, and I think Scotland, the name is pronounced MAH REE or Ma Ree

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: GUEST,Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 02:38 PM

Hmm, Bubblyrat, I think the creel issue has been discussed before! Read up the thread!
And the DT version does have "toe for toe" so I'm happy now!

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 02:22 PM

I see my link above is defunct so... Rankins

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 02:19 PM

A creel can just as easily be a basket for turf, in an Irish context.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:58 PM

Plenty PEAT to fill her creel ?? Plenty FISH, more like , a creel being a fish-basket (as far as I know !)

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:12 AM

By the way, I just figured out this morning that the article I posted (from the Glasgow Daily Record and written by Stephen Houston, who posted above) was written in 1995. Mary was born in 1905 and was celebrating her 90th birthday.)

According to the same source as the year Mary MacNiven was born (Wikipedia...I know, I know) the song was originally written in Gaelic by John Roderick Bannerman (1865–1938) for Mary C. MacNiven (1905–1997) on the occasion of her winning the gold medal at the National Mod in 1934. Roberton had collaborated with Bannerman before, and wrote the English translation.

There are references below in the Wikipedia article, but right now I have to shut the computer down and get to Portsmouth.

Linn

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:15 AM

The original tune was referred to as 'traditional' earlier - anyone have any info of the origins?

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:00 AM

Is it really TOW for toe? I'd always known it as TOE for toe. ( see Murray's lyrics post 7.8.98).
And it's Hugh ROBERTON, no s in it, Dave Rado.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Rara Avis
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:58 PM

When I was in an English Country Dance group in the mid-1990s we danced to a tune that had come to us via Canada. I don't remember the title of it but the tune was Mari's Wedding. Do we know how old the "Lewis Bridal Song' is or did I overlook it while reading the posts?

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: GUEST,Alastair Preston
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:11 PM

The original title, as another poster has said, is "Gaol mo Chridhe-sa, Mairi Bhan". Why Roberton used the title "Lewis Bridal Song", I don't know. Perhaps he wanted to avoid confusion with J.N. McConochie's song "Marie's wedding" (a version of which is included in "Songs of the Isles"), or because he claimed the tune was noted from Dr. Peter A. MacLeod, and in his acknowledgements, mentions that Dr.Macleod was from Lewis.

The Gaelic lyrics linked to by Mr. Rado contain a few errors and miss-spellings - from various published sources I have it as:

Seist:
Gaol mo chrìdhe-sa Màiri bhàn,
Màiri bhòidheach, sgeul mo dhàin;
'S i mo ghaol-sa Màiri bhàn,
'S tha mi dol ga pòsadh.

Rann 1:
Thuit mi ann an gaol a-raoir,
Tha mo chrìdhe-sa shuas air beinn,
Màiri bhàn rim thaobh a' seinn,
'S tha mi dol ga pòsadh.

2:
Cuailean òir is suilean tlàth,
Mala chaol is gruaidh an àigh,
Beul as binne sheinneas dàn,
'S tha mi dol ga pòsadh.

3:
'S ann aig ceilidh aig a' Mhoid
Fhuair mi eòlas air an òigh
'S ise choisinn am bonn òir,
'S tha mi dol ga pòsadh.

4:
Bidh mo ghaol do Mhàiri bhàn
Dileas, dùrachdach go bràth;
Seinnidh sinn da chèil ar gràdh,
'S tha mi dol ga pòsadh.

A choir I sing with does both the Gaelic and Roberton's English versions, and we've had the Gaelic spelling checked by a Gaelic speaker from Lewis.

Two sources are Sheena Phillip's sheet music from www.canasg.com and the book "Tog Fonn" from Taigh na Teud, available from scotlandsmusic.com.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 01:01 PM

The original Gaelic lyrics of the song are here.

A literal translation of the first verse is given in the Wikipedia article here, as follows:

"She's my darling, Fair Mary
Pretty Mary, story of my song,
Darling of my heart, Fair Mary,
And I'm going to her wedding"


The Robertson translation isn't a literal one but it captures the essence of the original reasonably accurately.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 12:26 PM

The Gealic words are also about a wedding, which is why its original title was Mairi Bhan, which mean's Mairi's Wedding.

The English translation is a fairly accurate translation of the original Gaelic words.

The song was not written about a mod, it waswritten as a present for Mary MacNiven in celebration of the fact she'd just won the gold medal in one.

You didn't either read my post or the obituary I linked to properly.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 12:19 PM

The English words are about a wedding, not about somebody winning at the Mod.

So how can the English be a translation of the Gaelic, or the other way round?

It seems there are two independent songs written for the same person in two different languages at nearly the same time, using the same tune.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 12:15 PM

By the way, with regard to Frances' post, I can't find anything on google about the history behind the song of the same title that was sung by Sidney MacEwan, and I have never heard that song sung in Scotland.

OTOH the Lewis Bridal Song that was written for Mary MacNiven uses a traditional Scottish folk tune that dates back many centuries; the words date from 1934 in the Gaelic version and to 1936 in the English translation; and in Scotland it is probably the most popular folk song there is - it is sung in music lessons in almost every school in Scotland and has been covered by every major Scottish folk group; so to call it a travesty strikes me as very odd.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Dave Rado
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 11:57 AM

The song was indeed written in Gaelic, by John Bannerman, in 1934, to celebrate the winning of the gold medal in a Gaelic singing mod by his friend Mary (or Mairi) MacNiven.

It was not written by Hugh Robertson, who should only be credited as the translator, not as the author. He translated it in 1936. Its original title was Mairi Bhan, but Robertson renamed it "Lewis Bridal Song" when he translated it - why "Lewis" seems to be a mystery, as neither Mary McNiven (who was from Islay) nor her then fiancée John Campbell (a sea captain from Skye, whom she didn't marry for another 6 years) were from Lewis.

There's a fascinating obituary of Mary MacNiven, which mentions the song's history, here.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: GUEST,Frances
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 08:51 PM

Thank you, thank you Big Tim for those lyrics and the information. I, too, heard the song on a Father Sydney McEwan album in the 60s and spent years looking for the words. I'd given up. This was the first Lewis Bridal Song I heard, so the other, more popular Mairi's Wedding felt like a travesty and still does. Mairi's Wedding is a nice enough song, and I've sung it for a friend's wedding, but 'step we gaily' jars with me. That's more because it's a bit too ho-ho-hearty in comparison with the other (Morrison?) song, than because it doesn't sound Scottish.

Richard - I just thought of something re 'step we gaily'/'step it gaily'. Hugh Roberton's Air Fa La La Lo (another ho-ho-hearty type of song, but I like it) has a line that goes 'So step it along as light as a bird on the wing'.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:06 PM

The song was originally written Gaelic -- that's why she was "Mairi" instead of "Mary" -- for the Mod of 1935.

If that's true, the Mod will have published it at the time, and the booklet will be easy to find, since their annual songbooks were produced in huge numbers.

Anybody want to go and look?

(I think it's more likely that Houston's subeditor screwed something up).

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM

Thought I had posted this link to The Rankin Family's You Tube video on this thread... guess not.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:07 PM

I have Roberton's small book in front of me and confirm (again, with Malcolm) Murray on Saltspring's words and notes. "Songs of the Isles : a collection of Island and Highland tunes from various sources," 1950

Roberton (no "s") was fairly well-established a scholar. He definitely claims and copyrights the words in 1937. He gives the tune source as "noted from Dr Peter A. MacLeod and arranged by" himself.

He may be lying but I see other songs in the book attributed to others. I _especially_ note the notes to "Joy of My Heart" on p.18:

"Words by Hugh S Roberton, Gaelic translation by John R Bannerman." Copyright is 1934. This clearly has Bannerman translating Roberton's words into Gaelic, not the other way around.

I suggest that's where the story comes from. All due respect to Bat Goddess. If she says she's seen the news article then I believe it. However, with no date and it not turning up on search, I wonder. It wouldn't be the first ill-researched newspaper article. OTOH, from the reading, perhaps it was just the tune that was played for an actual Mairi - not a song at all.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 01:55 AM

Actually, we do have rowan trees in the US and Canada...we just don't call them rowans. The name used over hear is Mountain Ash, and I believe that my Audubon Book of North American Trees there are a couple of varieties in North America, as well as escaped versions of the European Mountain Ash.

For those of you who like Kipling, the Oak, Ash and Thorn in "Puck of Pook's Hill" and "Farewell Rewards and Fairies" refers to Oak, Rowan and Hawthorn, which were all semi-sacred trees in pre-Christian days.

Rowan trees = Sorbus aucuparia = Mountain Ash; sens. European, not Australian. We in Oz call them "Rowans" or "Rowan Trees" as we have another species of tree regarded as Mountain Ash; Eucalyptus regnans.

Robert Graves, in his book "The White Goddess" gives a fairly complete rundown on the place of Rowans in Celtic lore.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 01:01 AM

Cad é ?

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST,Leòdhas
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 04:00 PM

A Gaidheal speaks Gàidhlig and the gàidhlig version is called. Gaol mo chridh'-sa Mairi Bhan, Mairi being the correct spelling, Use Mhairi when addressing a lady {vocative}. Any version in english is just that english...Dileas, durachach gu brath....

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 02:49 PM

BBC4 recently ran a series on scotlands music presented by Phil Cunningham. There were I think 6 themed episodes and the one on working songs had a section on the sheiling which was in the western isles where the lived while they tended the beasts on summer pasture.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:39 PM

MtheGM
you're right, so it's even more innocuous than I thought!
-jordi

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM

'Step we gaily' - slightly obsolete, but perfectly grammatically acceptable, use of the subjunctive mood, to mean 'let us step gaily': so not even an inversion. What so wrong with it?

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:40 PM

Ah, well, to each his own, I guess. I actually liked the "step we gaily". Is there any reason you don't like it, aside from the inversion?
-Jordi

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:01 PM

This song is one of my pet hates, purely because of the opening phrase of the chorus, which is usually also the opening phrase of the song, "Step we gaily". I don't know about the Gaelic original, but this translation is not normal English (nor Scots) and certainly nothing like what I would expect to hear in a folk song (according to anybody's definition of "folk").

Poets tend to mess about with the language for whatever effect they wish to achieve, but there's no call for it in a song such as this.

I do note that the DigiTrad / Johnny Bannerman version has "Step it gaily", which isn't quite so bad, but I can't say I like even that.

Richard

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 11:26 PM

Thanks, I was under the impression that the song was in Gaelic, having read the article quoted some posts above mine, about halfway down the page. The article, written by Stephen Houston mentioned that the original Mairi-- Mary McNiven, the woman for whom the song was written-- "still sang it in Gaelic" sometimes. Now, I've readily found the lyrics, but can't seem to find any group actually /singing/ in Gaelic.
Any help would be much appreciated.
-Jordi

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

There are a couple of mentions above of the Canadian-Celtic Rankin Family's fine version, which can be found on YouTube — sung in *English*, however; tho the Rankins do perform in Gaelic: their Gaelic rendering of 'Ho-Ro My Nut-Brown Maiden' ('Ho Ro Mo Nighean Donn Bhoidheach') is well worth YouTubing also.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: Marje
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:26 AM

GUEST above: "Gaelic" applies to both the Highland Scottish and the Irish languages. In Scotland the word is pronounced "gallic", and that's what the original will have been written in. But I have to say I've never heard or seen it in gaelic.

Marje

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 12:50 AM

i believe this is scottish not irish.
or maybe the original gaelic is somewhere in between?

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 10:41 PM

Does anyone know where I could find a recording of Mairi's wedding in the original Gaelic? I've looked everywhere & can't find anything.
many Thanks,
-jordi

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST,Andrew McFadden
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM

Perhaps a connection with the late and great Duncan Morrison of Lewis? An outstanding expert in Gaelic music. He was a fellow student of MacEwan's at the Royal Academy of Music in the early 30's. They became good friends and while still as students at RAM made their first recordings for Parlophone(1934) The Glaswegian lyric tenor and his Hebridean piano accompanist regailed the great and the good of London society - through the patronage of Compton MacKenzie and Lady Londonderry, including the then Duchess of York, known to us as Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. This is the very same period of this more beautiful version of the Lewis Bridal Song.

Can we attribute this to Duncan Morrison - as on the label of the original 78 rpm disc (1935)

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:40 AM

Sorry, Miabhaig and Uig are, of course, on the island of Lewis not Harris.

Subject: Lyr Add: LEWIS BRIDAL SONG (from Fr Sydney MacEwan
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:27 AM

There seems to be TWO songs called "Lewis Bridal Song".

I have an old recording by Father Sydney MacEwan of a song called "Lewis Bridal Song" which is completely different from "Marie's Wedding". The words are:

I'd sail with thee to Miabhaig (Miavaig) in Uig,
E'en though in twilight, e'en though in twilight,
I'd sail with thee to Miabhaig in Uig,
E'en through the dark and the sea mist.

Chorus
Morag bheag (little Morag) of the golden hair,
Fair as the dawning, fair as the dawning,
Morag bheag of the golden hair,
Lightly she stepped to her bridal.

How shall we fare when the wind's in the sail?
And storm clouds gather, storm clouds gather,
How shall we fare in the whirl of the gale?
Out in the midst of the Islands.

Who is the maiden who dances with joy?
Like foam on the wave tops, foam on the wave tops,
Who is the maid on the dancing floor?
She is the bride who came sailing.

This song is credited to "MacIver". The melody is very beautiful (to me at least). Miabhaig is a hamlet in the parish of Uig in western Harris. The "Islands" are in Loch Róg.

Anyone know which song came first and if "Lewis Bridal Song" is the correct title of this song? And who was "MacIver"?

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST,Rich Kildare
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 12:10 AM

I've been looking for the beautiful version of this song from the movie "passed away" for years. I'd appreciate it if anyone has a copy or can tell me who was singing.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From:
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:23 PM

Thanks, Stephen for stopping in. What was the actual date?

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST,Stephen Houston
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 10:57 AM

Dear all

can't believe I have found this rather long thread. I wrote the story nearly ten years ago now when I was a reporter on the Daily Record.

I clearly remember the old girl being a delight to talk to. Must find out whether she is still with us.

best wishes, Stephen Houston.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST,ocuinn
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 08:14 AM

In the movie "passed away" (1992) starring bob hoskins at the end a version of "mairi's wedding" was sung. However there were a lot more verses in included than what I can find anywhere on the internet. Does anyone actually know the words or anything about these other verses???

Subject: Lyr Add: CANCEL MARIE'S WEDDING (parody; McCalman)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 04:00 PM

And another parody, to the same tune:

CANCEL MARIE'S WEDDING
(Ian McCalman / Trad)

Chorus:
Sell we gaily on we go
Down at heel so we must blow
Hills and islands row on row
All for the sake of money

Her father died, the land was sold
Marie tried to keep a hold
Scottish law and foreign gold
Cancel Marie's wedding

All you need for stream and ben
Is Deutschmark, Guilder, Franc or Yen
Then ... sell it on again
For the sake of money

Buy a castle, buy a glen
Sitting tenants "no prob-lem"
Highland clearances again
For the sake of money

Plenty fish to fill the creels
Plenty agents fixing deals
Lawyers dancing jigs and reels
For the sake of money

Other countries you will find
It's not allowed but never mind
Here's our land for auld lang syne
All it takes is money

You think you're safe - you spoke too soon
They've seen the film, they've hummed the tune
'Braveheart' meets 'Brigadoon'
All for the sake of money

(As recorded by The McCalmans on 'High Ground', 1997)

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: GUEST,Michael McMahon
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 03:08 PM

The song is not really Irish, because it doesn't really follow the traditional patterns of Irish folksinging.I did a study on Celtic folksongs for my music classes, Mairi's Wedding was one of them. The tune is from the Lewis Bridal Song, it's named after the Isle of Lewis which makes up one of the major parts of the Hebrides off of Scotland. It's interesting that some people claim it as an Irish song, since it is livelier than most of the more traditional Scottish folksongs. Here is a tidbit of history, most of the Gaels came from Dal Raiti, which is now Ulster, when they settled on the Hebrides, they came under the rule of the Lord of the Isles, Clan Donald. Because of the automony from the Kings of Scotland Gaelic culture flourished and survived for over a thousand years. The Rankin family sang a fine redition from their first album, followed by a traditional Scottish tune that is to follow the singing of Mairi's Wedding. I've been to enough wedding to understand the customs that follows.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: open mike
Date: 09 May 04 - 02:32 AM

this strap for carrying a bundle on your back sounds like what I would call a "tump line" which i usually assiciate with Voyageurs (no i didn't say voyeurs)and native americans carrying things like pkg. of furs ( it seems as if the voyageurs carried 90 pounds of baggae on thier backs)
tumpline--SYLLABICATION: tump·line
NOUN: A strap slung across the forehead or the chest
to support a load carried on the back.
ETYMOLOGY: tump (alteration of mattump,
of Southern New England Algonquian origin)
see:
http://www.tulane.edu/~mari/textiles/G5-6-7.html
http://www.shieldsaroundtheworld.com/pichtml/p0005140.html
http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/tsimsian/tratr01e.html

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: KateG
Date: 09 May 04 - 12:40 AM

Actually, we do have rowan trees in the US and Canada...we just don't call them rowans. The name used over hear is Mountain Ash, and I believe that my Audubon Book of North American Trees there are a couple of varieties in North America, as well as escaped versions of the European Mountain Ash.

For those of you who like Kipling, the Oak, Ash and Thorn in "Puck of Pook's Hill" and "Farewell Rewards and Fairies" refers to Oak, Rowan and Hawthorn, which were all semi-sacred trees in pre-Christian days.

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: BK Lick
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:34 PM

Joe Offer, might be you're thinking of Gerry Armstrong on the Simple Gifts album?

-- BK

Subject: RE: All for Mary's Wedding - Irish tune
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 May 04 - 06:46 PM

I'm sure that Hugh Roberton, if he were still living, would be thrilled to hear that you've decided that his words don't need much changing after all. They were written exactly as Murray quoted them, and are still in copyright.