HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues

Subject: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 03 - 08:16 AM

My wife is designing a website for some of my favorite songs - some original, some re-arranged, some borrowed, and some traditional. The site would include lyrics with notes, and MP3 samples of how I do the songs. Among other things I would like to link this site to some of the songs I've posted on Mudcat.

I'm now looking for some advisory wording that provides me some protection for lyrics or arrangements in which I have a major creative role. I realize that the safest thing to do to avoid being rudely ripped off would be not to implement the website. However, I'm willing to risk that and try to devise some middle ground where I affirm that some of the lyrics or arrangements posted have copyright protection and if someone wants to use such songs for commercial purposes they should endeavor to secure my express permission.

I've cruised through a few websites but so far haven't found a statement which seems to work for me. If I did find one I'd, of course, seek permission to use that statement and provide full credit to the composer!

This may have been adequately addressed in a previous Mudcat thread but I haven't found it among the tangle of threads that address copyright questions.

Help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:36 AM

Your are not making money from it.

The laws are those local to your country - and also the country from which it is accessed.

It is easier to say "I'm sorry" and remove the offending material than to "ask for permission."

Don't waffle with the shoulda, woulda, coulda, oughta

"Dragons of the Future!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:48 AM

Will you be "ripped off."

Yeah - and I will probably be one of the first to do it.

Which is better?

to die poor and unsung?

OR

to die poor and unknown?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

CHARLIE - You have delusions of grandeur - no matter - you - and the bucket you fell into - will travel the same well to the tringg-ling-ling-ling-ling-ling-fa-la-la-la - will any sweet voices sing your songs from afar?

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: MMario
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:51 AM

Garg! *READ* the post! he is putting up HIS OWN MATERIAL!

Charley - what you want to say (if I understand you correctly) is that use is granted for non-commercial applications; for other applications please contact you.

correct?

I think you are probably going to just have to play around with the wording 'till you get something you can tolerate -

but your copyright notice should be on EVERY page (if each item is on a seperate page)

There is also the issue that by setting up the web page it is possible that the item could be counted as "published" and thus under current rulings anyone could record the item as long as they pay the mechanical fees.

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 03 - 09:56 AM

Mario I think Garg knows, read his yellow print.

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 03 - 11:11 AM

Good suggestions, MMario! I'm really not going to lose a whole lot of sleep over this but sometimes it's useful to sort out what I expect people to do with what I'm posting on the site.

By the way, would the MP3 files be useful to you for "tunes" or would it be a lot of work for you to convert to a midi file?

Gargoyle, if I find out that you're making millions with what I've posted I'll track you done for my 10%! ;~)

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 03 - 11:48 AM

Charley, you write some good songs, but I don't think you'll get rich from songwriting. Maybe it's better not to bother. Wouldn't it be wonderful is we could fall in love with a song, any song, and then sing it without licensing or restriction?
Of course, if somebody recorded my song and made a million, I guess I'd feel some regret.
I suppose there are folk musicians like McCutcheon and Staines and Bok and Bogle and Stan Rogers who might make a little bit of money from their work, but I wonder if even they make enough to warrant the effort they've spent to protect their work.
The work of Woody Guthrie is probably a gold mine for some corporation, but who else?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: harvey andrews
Date: 16 May 03 - 02:08 PM

I suppose there are folk musicians like McCutcheon and Staines and Bok and Bogle and Stan Rogers who might make a little bit of money from their work, but I wonder if even they make enough to warrant the effort they've spent to protect their work.

Joe in my experience it takes very little effort, and if I was one of the above I would say it was definitely worth it!

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 03 - 02:34 PM

MP3s are always better than midi files...

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 03 - 04:49 PM

My wife is designing this site to fly with a minimum of bells and whistles, limited to 10 MB. She finds it a piece of cake after designing the mega website the Maine Legislative posts its business on. It may be a useful site to visit if you have a mind to do something similar yourself.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 May 03 - 05:17 PM

Charley,

From what I've learned from the copyright office in the U.S. government and a copyright attorney, simple statements are the best. My website of Orlando (FL) History has the following notice on the front page. Each and every page that has images and/or text on it also has the second part of the notice.

The content of this website is owned by Old Orlando Tours. All images and text on this site are the work of Thomas E. Cook & Old Orlando Tours unless otherwise noted.

Copyright © 2003 Thomas E. Cook
All rights reserved.

Beyond that, you can say that you might grant permission for use on other sites (but most people probably won't), and you can make some exhortation as to "please don't take my stuff and use it to make money." But it is legally not needed. The next step after putting your site up is to occasionally look throughout the 'net to see if any of your stuff is out there.

The good thing is that even without the above statements, your work is protected.

The bad thing is that that doesn't mean much unless you chose to hire a lawyer and bring suit.

But at least with the above statement, everyone will know that you do hold the rights.

----------------------

Side note: I discovered that the local history museum was using some of my images on their website. When I asked about this, they said that they thought that images of public buildings are "public domain" because anyone can take a picture of a building. It's scary when a government institution does not understand copyright law.

Remember that electronic media is just as copyrightable as physical media. And this includes the over-all design of websites.


pax yall

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 03 - 10:23 PM

Thanks for the Tip Maine Legislative posts its business on.

Backwoods/Hick sites are always fun for games. There are no points for personal web-pages, but anything government gives credibility and a score.

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: open mike
Date: 17 May 03 - 12:05 AM

i had an issue happen once.
I took a picture of Michael Hedges.
I sent it to his web master to include
on his web page. Before we knew it, someone
had grabgbed the image, and made it the
cover of their bootleg album. (blush--
I was flattered that they should find
my foto their favorite!) The lawyer for
the estate of Michael chased down the'
culprit, because many of us thought
that using his material for personal
gain, and not for the support of his
widow and children was not only improper,
'but illegal. I was asked if permission
was rtequested for the use of my ;icture.
I believe it is understood that if material
is yours, you have the right to it, and can
protect your interest in your creations. It
is implied that a picture (therefor a song?)
which you ahve created is your "property"
Good luck Charley...and I hope ai get to
hear your songs....the home made ones are the best!!
(home grown ones?)

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 03 - 12:48 AM

Open Mike?

Are you more than a little,

"under the influence" tonight?

Are you visually impared, and using

an ENLARGED SCREEN?

Who got rich? Michael's heirs?

The lawyers hired to handle the estate?

Who the "tring-ling-ling

fa- la-la-la....is Michael Hedges?

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 May 03 - 10:26 AM

Blackcatter - I like your approach! Thanks!

Now I need to sort out what to say about categories of my favorite songs:

1.        My lyrics/My tune

2.        My lyrics/Traditional tune

3.        My lyrics/Someone else's tune

4.        Someone else's lyrics/My tune

5.        Someone's else's lyrics/Someone else's tune

6.        My adapted lyrics/My adapted tune

7.        Traditional lyrics/Traditional tune

1, 2, and 7 seem straight forward. However, I need to secure "used with permission" for 3, 4 and 5; they won't be posted until permission is granted.

6 is that murky muddle where a lot of what I do should be categorized; I'm thinking of composed songs/poems where I've made some changes to wording and some changes to the tune. A good example of this would be Henry Lawson's poem "The Outside Track' which I credit as follows:

Words by Henry Lawson, © 1896; original tune by Gerry Hallom © 1982
Primarily from the singing of Margaret Walters and John Warner,
Who Was Here? CD, Feathers & Wedge © 1997
Words and tune modified by Charlie Ipcar (aka Charley Noble), 2002

I'll just have to puzzle these one out, leaving them off the website until I've resolved the questions.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: dwditty
Date: 17 May 03 - 11:49 AM

check BMI and ASCAP, they seem to be the ones that license much of what you ask in terms of others music, or check with the publishers themselve. Licensing is a pain and requires a bit of internet detective work to sort it out. I was also able to track down the writers of some material I wanted to use on my cd, and they graciously GAVE me permission.

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 May 03 - 01:33 PM

Charley: I like the notice posted at Filk Music Blanket Permission List" The link is to allow you to see it on-screen, but I also quote it here:
"The following folks have given blanket permission to post their songs, so long as proper credit and copyright information are kept with the song, and it is not published or recorded for sale without specific permission from the writer. If a writer is not listed, check with them first. See also the above list."
Whilst this is meant to refer to numerous writers, it ca be easily re-vamped to cover just your own material on your own site. If you are planning a 'page per song' I would suggest you use something similar as a standard 'footer'

CHEERS

Nigel

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 May 03 - 01:53 PM

Good suggestion, Nigel. Thanks!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 17 May 03 - 02:02 PM

Just looked at your credit lines for Henry Lawson's poem. Excellent! Wouldn't it be nice if the credits for material in the DT were this complete!
Thread drift: "The Outside Track" isn't in the DT, but a version with some information was posted by lamarca in thread 16052 back in nineteen and ninety-nine. Glad I looked it up- a fine poem! Outside Track

Several of the institutional sites (more likely to have better notices on copyrights) have versions of the notices used by Blackcatter. Some also have a disclaimer of this type- 'Some of this material may be under copyright and we cannot be responsible...etc.' Some of the copyright paths are labyrinthine, and the search is like hunting for the Holy Grail.

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 May 03 - 05:50 PM

Q -

There should be a extensive thread discussion of "Outside Track;" other singers who have covered it, without the first verse which I consider a significant loss, are Gordon Bok and Garnet Rogers.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: HELP: Personal Website Copyright Issues
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:06 PM

I have to confess being fond of Tanglefoot's notice on their SATURDAY NIGHT IN HARDWOOD LAKE CD, © 1994:

"This recording may not be copied. Believe it or not, it is against the law. If your friends want copies, phone us up and we'll send 'em out. If you do copy this recording you will be dismasted, flayed, disindigitated, litigated and put in the barrel!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble