Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 May 03 - 02:26 PM

Euchre- the OED says the term has long been thought to be German, but "no probable source has been found in that language." The OED speculates that it could be the American-Spanish word yuca, or "cock of the walk." This is more likely since the game is American as far as is known, first mentioned in print in the 1840s, but the quotation implies that the game had been around for some time.
Railroad euchre has a joker.
The term 'bower' may have been an addition to the game since it is not known in print before the 1860s.
On the other hand, bower in the meaning of peasant was taken into English at least by the 1400s, long before the 'Pennsylvania Dutch' came to America.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 May 03 - 12:33 PM

Thanks everyone for the information about the word "bower". If the origins of the game Euchre do lie with the Pennsylvania Dutch, then the meaning of the word "bower" as "farmer" does make sense.

However, there is some debate as to the origins of Euchre. Some enthusiasts point to 18th century Europe and the French card game "Juker", in which a Joker was used as a "wild card" or "best bower", higher than the right/left bowers and trumps (some American players still use the Joker today). It's said that the English loved the game but hated it's creators (the French), so the name was changed to "Euchre" before it was brought to America in the 1800's. Either way, the meaning of the word "bower" as "peasant" rings true.

Although the etymology of the word "euchre" is unknown according to Webster's on-line dictionary, some say it has it's roots in the Greek "EOS", which means "favor or grace". (The Greek "eos" is also the root of the word "Eucharist", the breaking of the bread, or holy sacrament of the Catholic Mass). My own interpretation is that the game of Euchre probably expresses an ancient dream of the "common people" - to be (divinely?) "empowered" beyond that of even royalty.

Which brings us back to Robin Hood and the Major Oak. There's more information and pictures of this ancient tree, said to be the oldest in England at over 800 years, at this link.

Considering the time-honored European beliefs about oak trees being sacred "vessels of the Divine", dwelling places for woodland spirits/faerie folk and mediums of prophecy and knowledge, there's little wonder that Robin and his merry men came to be associated with an oak tree. This association lends even more credibility to the theory that the Robin Hood legends have their roots in the ancient Celtic pagan god of Nature, the "Green Man" or "Wild Man". (Parallels are found in the Greek god "Pan"). And certainly this association would have made him an "outlaw", a hero of the common folk who wished to remain loyal to their "old ways" once the Christianization of the British Isles began in earnest.

No discussion of "sacred oaks" would be complete without mentioning St. Boniface and the Oak of Donar (Thor) St. Boniface was the English missionary who converted the Germanic peoples to Christianity in the 8th century. The Germanic peoples had long revered the "sacred" oak, decorating it with golden apples at the Winter Solstice.

Apparently St. Boniface was so determined to rid the people of their ancient pagan "oak-worship" that he "felled a great oak tree that was a center of worship for the then Druid peoples. In felling the tree Saint Boniface hoped to symbolize the end of the old beliefs. However, the legend maintains that a small fir sapling was somehow left standing (or later appeared, depending on the version of the legend), and the missionary offered up this new tree as a symbol for emergence of the new Christian beliefs. (Hey, if you're dealing with tree worshipers, its best not to push them too far in one step!) So, hence forth, fir trees came to be associated with the early Christian rituals in this part of the world. Instead of decorating oak trees for the winter solstice, as had been the custom in pagan times, the new found Christians decorated fir trees for "Christmas" (the mass celebrating Christ's birth)... The early missionaries of Christendom were wise enough to know that it was one thing to change the nature of the gods people believed in (and which type of tree they might revere), but it was quite another thing to tamper with the timing of a great and traditional festival. So the Christian stories and mythology were adapted to the existing culture of these people ("the return of the sun" shifted to the "coming of the son"), and in much the same manner Christianity and other religions have spread and continue to spread to this day." (emphasis mine). So that's why today's Christmas trees are evergreens and not oaks!

There are many other versions of this story. One is that St. Boniface felled the Oak of Donar to prevent a human sacrifice about to be performed by the Druids there -- a tale which certainly serves to "demonize" the Druids and their pagan ways. Another is that he did not stop with the Oak of Donar, but sought to destroy all the oaks in Germany. For another rendition of the tale, click here.

Oak-ay, I'm all done for now!   

daylia

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:47 PM

Q, Thanks--the last couple of links aren't working, but I went looking on my own. Here is a chronology at St. Marks.

I have thought about the exhibits at Federal Hall--I had the wrong personage. It's John Peter Zenger whose printing press was on display, though there could also have been Stuyvesant objects also. Here is an online timetable site that might be of interest to some of you.

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:25 PM

I won't try to relink the two I messed up.
WWW.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/stuyvesant/stuy.html
www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=999

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:17 PM

This brief bio seems reasonably accurate. Stuyvesant
It seems that he kept the same farm of 62 acres, the "Great Bowerie," which was tilled and maintained by 50 slaves. His house burned down in 1777. His son's house still exists as the Fish mansion.

A partial answer for Stilly R S- his tomb is in the outer wall of St. Mark's Church, which, as a chapel, was maintained for a time by his wife. A little more data at Tomb St Mark's
The chapel was replaced by the church. Stuyvesant ST

links fixed
by a
joe clone

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 10:45 PM

Not clear if the farm that he had after his return to New York (in 1667) was the same as the one that he had before the English takeover in 1664. He was absent for about three years and may have disposed of the earlier farm. The Bowery is named after the one he held at his death in 1672. I haven't been able to track this down.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: ooh-aah
Date: 23 May 03 - 10:10 PM

It's amusing that Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire argue as to which of their counties Robin Hood was from, when of course he was a Derbyshire lad. Little John certainly was, he's buried in Hathersage!

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 03 - 09:47 PM

Well, there is an interesting paper on Stuyvesant by a scholarly descendant at this site, which includes this bit:

In the spring of 1651 Stuyvesant purchased from the Dutch West India Company land which he called the Great Bowery (or farm). This property ran from the East River to the present Fourth Avenue and Broadway in an area bounded by Fifth Street on the south and Seventeenth Street on the north, roughly the Lower East Side of Manhattan. He paid 6400 guilders for the land. He had a house there, a barn, six cows, two horses and two young Negroes. It was clear that Stuyvesant meant to remain on Manhattan for some time.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:57 PM

I'll be there next month with my 15-year-old daughter, her first trip to The City. If we go by there I'll ask. Or the place to get some good Stuyvesant information is at Federal Hall, where they have an exhibit and some of his artifacts.

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:29 PM

The church is on the site of his grave. Don't know if they moved his remains or just plowed them under. Need a NY history buff here.

English is a conglomerate of Indo-European languages. And some from outside that big group. That is why it is the current internatioal language, like Latin used to be for a long time.

Esperanto is, and will remain, as useless as Klingon. Sorry, Leland.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:12 PM

Over his grave site, or he's buried in the churchyard?

Sounds like the English went a-bowerrowing this bit of the language, eh? ;-)

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 06:50 PM

There were farms in parts of what is now New York City in the 19th century.

Bowery:
Dutch bouwer, farmer, from bouwen, to till. "A colonial Dutch plantation or farm." Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

Bower: The English word, usages for farm, peasant, did come from the Dutch bouwer, or German bauer, first appearing in the 15th century.

Bowery: "a farm, a 'plantation', hence the 'Bowery' in New York City."
The term was first used in "Knickerbocker Tales," by Washington Irving in 1809. OED.

Since bouwerij means farm or husbandry in Dutch, the entry in the website would mean that the original name of Stuyvesant's farm was 'farm,' hardly likely. But the name DID come from his farm. Stuyvesant had gone back to Holland after the English took over, but was reviled at home as a loser, so he came back to New York and set up a farm, a 'bowery.' St. Mark's Church is built over his grave site.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 03 - 05:57 PM

According to the New Nederland Project (in pdf, sorry), bowery does come from the Dutch bouwerij or boerderij and became known as such from the original name of Petrus (Peter) Stuyvesant's farm/plantation.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 03 - 03:44 PM

Bowery in New York was probably a Dutch word then, because back when Manhattan still had farms it was also probably still Dutch.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 02:52 PM

The bowers in Euchre seem to come from another meaning of the word- peasant. Both cards are "knaves." The term applied to cards first appeared in 1872, in the Bret Harte story, "Heathen Chinee."

Bower in the sense of cover, canopy (and eventually arbor) first appeared in print in the 16th century.

There are several other meanings to the word. See OED. The earliest meaning was a dwelling or place of abode.

Bowery, the NY area, came from an old meaning of bower; a farm.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 May 03 - 10:18 AM

kat, that's quite the story about the Charter Oak - too bad it's days of gracing the landscape are over! I really enjoyed the link re multiple Robins - thanks. I've a hunch that this hypothesis re the origins of the Robin Hood legends (found at this section of kat's link) is the closest to the truth -- "The first Robin Hood play is recorded as being performed at Exeter, not long after the first May Games are recorded there. Professor Lorraine Stock notes that Exeter Cathedral is filled with "Green Man" imagery, the human head with foliage growing out of his mouth. The Green Man, like Robin, has ties to the virgin Mary. (The Exeter Cathedral is dedicated to her.) And Stock feels that the traditions of the Green Man, and the Wild Man, influenced the growth of the Robin Hood legend."

Interesting that "Robin" was also a medieval name for the "devil", and that the color green was often associated with the devil.

Nerd, I'm so GLAD you're a nerd! Thanks so much for your most interesting and informative posts! May your "nerdliness" prevail ...

You too, SRS (not the nerdliness, of course!) This is a wonderful thread ...

Masato, thanks for your verses from the "Concordance of Child's Ballads"!   I looked up the word "bower", and found it meant a dwelling or shelter, particularly one made out of "tree boughs or vines twined together: ARBOR (as in a garden)".   Now I have a question -- does this have anything to do with the fact that in the game of Eucher, the Jacks of the same color are called "Right and Left Bowers"?   The "Bowers" are the highest trump cards in the deck, beating even the Kings, Queens and Aces. Quite the "Bower-Power" granted to the lowly, "common" Jacks! Reminds me a lot of the Robin Hood legends.

daylia

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 May 03 - 01:47 PM

I just found a picture of me, about 5 years old. My brother had just come home for a visit from Southern Illinois Uni. and had brought me a Robin Hood cap, complete with long feather. I already had the bow and arrows. Anyway, I've got the hat, which says "Robin Hood" on it, on in the picture.:-) I'd forgotten about it until now.

I would imagine there must be some songs about the Charter Oak (scroll down) of Connecticut. It's quite a tale of how the early patriots hid their Constitution from the English in the 1600's, for over two years, in the hollow of a grand old oak tree. There is still a first-generation "offspring" of the original Charter Oak in Bushnell Park, in Hartford. There is a picture of it on that same page.

kat

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 22 May 03 - 01:00 PM

A highwayman tosses a coin to a peasant- and the legend is born!

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:53 PM

There is also the layering on of fiction from movies and television. As a child I remember watching Richard Greene as Robin Hood--I don't remember anyone else in the cast. And there were quite a few viewings of the Errol Flynn/Basil Rathbone/Claude Raines version also. I haven't seen the newer films, Connery and Hepburn, or the Costner telling. If anything, I'll go dig out the Mel Brook's movie.

The trees portrayed in the Flynn movie must have been oaks--even if they were a California variety. They're just the best kind of tree for dangling netting and conducting ambushes from, I'm sure of it!
;-)

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:30 PM

Oh, SRS, I should also say that in the Robin Hood world, there is a partisan battle that goes on between Yorkshire and Nottingham that is partly about tourist dollars and partly about county pride. Each group wants to prove that the "real Robin Hood" lived in their county. The early ballads are split between Sherwood Forest (Nottinghamshire) and Barnesdale (Yorkshire), so each side has a legitimate claim. It even gets silly, with some of the Nottingham crowd claiming that the "Barnesdale" of the ballads was really a small hollow within Sherwood Forest called "Bernisdale," and not the famous Yorkshire Barnesdale which is ludicrous given the geographic specificity of the Barnesdale ballads.

Because of this war of words, there is always a ready supply of "researchers" (really enthusiasts) who are willing to claim that "we have a good candidate for the Prioress of Kirklees in 1234" or what-have-you. Serious historians don't agree with them, but they are considerably more vocal than serious historians. I seem to remember one of the shows presenting some of these views, so that may be the one you saw.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:20 PM

SRS,

Both A&E (Biography) and the History Channel (History's Mysteries) have done Robin Hood shows in the last few years. The thing is, both those shows had to suggest that there was a historical person because of the nature of the show--biographical and historical, not folkloric and legendary. So they did include the ambiguity we've spoken of, but they usually disguise it by finishing each section with a line like: "so, although not all historians are convinced, there's a good chance this obscure churchyard is Robin Hood's final resting place." It's not inaccurate, because it's true that "not all historians are convinced," but it would be more honest to say that "no historians are convinced!"

TV docs pick interviewees from a wide range of people. Usually they've got one historian whose carefully-edited interviews present only the more positive side of their arguments (I know this 'cause I've read their books), one re-enactor who tells you how Robin Hood "would have done things," one neo-pagan spokesperson who talks about the more mystical side of Robin Hood, and the current Sheriff of Nottingham, who wants people to visit the Robin Hood theme park there and so does a good deal of public speaking about Robin Hood in Nottingham. They don't really make it clear who's who, because they can just list J.C. Holt (an eminent Cambridge historian), John Matthews (a well-known neo-pagan author and spiritual workshop leader), and Richard Whatsisname (a re-enactor; I really did forget his name) as "Author:" with the title of their respective Robin Hood books. It looks like they're all equally expert.

Both shows actually do a rather good job of covering many aspects of the legend, but both try to leave viewers with the general impression that there was a historical figure because they are shows dedicated to history and biography.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:49 AM

Nerd, I'll have to keep my eyes open for the program that I picked up my information from and check out its date and sources. It has been long enough since I saw it that I don't remember many of the names you mention, if they were present or not. Bleeding or poisoning--either will get the job done! The information was presented in such a way as to suggest that there weren't ambiguities such as you catalog.

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 May 03 - 05:12 AM

Additions:

oke (10)
31.27    3    shee sate/Betweene an oke and a green hollen;/Shee was
31.15    3    shee sate/Betwixt an oke and a greene hollen;/She was
137A.22    1 /At last Kits oke caught Robin a stroke/That
126A.8    3    I have a staff of another oke graff,/I know it will do the
126A.13    3    I have a staff of another oke graff,/Not half a foot longer
126A.12    3    took up a staff of another oke graff,/That was both stiff and
8C.20    1    thou behinde this sturdie oke soone will quell their pride;
126A.15    2    reply'd,/`My staff is of oke so free;/Eight foot and a half,
137A.5    1    /A good oke staffe, a yard and a halfe,/
126A.36    2    danc'd round about the oke tree;/'For three merry men,

oken (2)
101[D.18]    3    /And he made a fire of the oken speals,/An warmed his lady
137A.18    2    Hood,/`Ffor ye have got oken staves;/But tarie till wee can

okes (1)
116A.56    2    bete on the gate,/With str' okes greate and stronge;

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:45 AM

From A Concordance to the Child Ballads:

oak (13)
91A.13    2   /as she sits in her chair of oak,/And bid her come to my
91A.19    2   /as you sit in a chair of oak,/And bids you come to her
103A.18    1   leand her back against an oak,/And gae a loud Ohone!/Then
101C.10   3   it roun wi the leaves o oak,/And gart it burn wi ire.
18D.6   2    /And he cut down the oak and the ash as he came along.
20D.3   1    set her back untill an oak,/First it bowed and then it
101A.17   1   /O he's pu'd the oak in good green wood,/An he's
90A.7   4   grave,/Beneath a green oak tree.
102B.18    4   dead,/Beneath the green oak tree.
103A.45    4   /Stands by yon green oak tree?
90A.20    4   /Beneath that green oak tree.'
102B.23    2    came,/Unto the green oak tree,/And there he saw his
20[O.5]    1   leant her back against an oak,/With bitter sighs these words

oake (1)
67A.18      2    a full great othe,/By oake and ashe and thorne,/`Lady,

oaken (4)
65E.12    4    /To be burnt in a oaken'
245D.11    3    /An whar he's wantit an oaken bolt/He's beat the yellow
245D.9      3   pin,/An whar ye want an oaken bolt/Ye'll beat the yellow
101B.24    3    the fire,/Well set about wi oaken spells,/That leamd oer

oak-tree (2)
156E.12      2      bower,/Beyond yon dark oak-tree I drew a penknife frae
142B.21      2    /And danced about the oak-tree:/`If we drink water while

~Masato

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 22 May 03 - 03:30 AM

It's not that there's no evidence for Robin Hood, it's that there's too much. In court rolls and other government documents, different people at different times were given the nickname "Robin Hood" to signify that they were outlaws, suggesting that there was a legend already. This goes back to 1262. Before that, the evidence waits to be discovered; the court rolls and other documents of that era are very difficult to read, and no-one would think of doing so in a quest for a single name! Although a Robert Hod who was outlawed for non-payment of debt does turn up in the 1226 York Assizes, there is no evidence whatsoever that this is the famous outlaw or that he had any exploits at all apart from skipping town to get out of paying! It seems from a marginal note that his nickname was Hobbe, not Robin, in any case.

The upshot is that a "real" Robin Hood is not actually well-documented, or even documented at all. To quote Jeffrey Singman's 1998 book, "no widely accepted candidate has been found, and it may be questioned whether such a discovery is at all possible."

The stories about Robin's death at Kirklees date to the late 1400s at least--the prioress, who is Robin's cousin, in fact bleeds him to death rather than poisoning him, because she is in cahoots (and in love) with an enemy of Robin's, Roger of Doncaster. This is alluded to in several ballads, including the Geste of Robin Hood.

The grave site at Kirklees cannot be verified, and the stone marker that reportedly used to stand there until the eighteenth century is certainly a fake. The epitaph was based on a poem by Martin Parker written in the seventeenth century, but translated into pseudo-old English. It identified Robin as the Earl of Huntingdon, but the Earldom of Huntingdon was held by the Scottish royal family during the relevant centuries. Thus, unless we are to believe that the King of Scotland (or one of his brothers, depending on the year) was running about as an outlaw in England, it is impossible that Robin was the Earl of Huntingdon, and thus impossible that the epitaph is anything more than a cute piece of fiction.

Geez, we happen to be talking about two of the things I've researched recently: tree-lore and Robin Hood! Sorry to be such a...well, nerd!

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Kaleea
Date: 22 May 03 - 03:04 AM

Maybe the old timers just happened to like the Old Oak Tree 'cause of all the pretty yellow ribbons tied around it.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 May 03 - 02:53 AM

Keith - I don't know the cemetery of Mons, but there are other types of German war cemeteries I have seen and worked at.
Damvillers near Verdun was a mayor centre of the rear area with an Army hospital; there the dead were buried in rank an file under recently planted trees in a regular pattern.
Near this town in Lissey every unit buried their dead in a small forest; there is no recognizable pattern. Some are buried in lines, some in circles around a stone with the units name, sometimes with no place to go between the single parts of the burying ground.
The trees were mostly no oaks.
Often single oaks are planted to commemorate a jubilee or an outstanding event. Around my house are two such oaks. The first planted to commemorate the birthday of Jahn, founder of the German Turner-movement, and the other at Oct. 3, 1990 - the day of the reunification of my divided fatherland. On this occasion I swung the shovel happily.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:53 PM

I haven't read all of this site's stuff, but it looks as though it might have some good info on several real "Robins:" clickety.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 May 03 - 04:48 PM

That was a shot in the dark on my part in placing a date on Robin Hood, but I think there is now pretty good evidence that a figure existed in history who the folkhero is based upon. As to whether he did any of the things purported to him, that's another story. An evil Abbess is said to have poisoned an ailing Robin she was supposed to be caring for, and I think his burial site has been documented.

Time for another Metacrawler search. . . I think I saw a biography of him on A&E or saw something on PBS.

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 21 May 03 - 04:28 PM

Stilly River Stage makes a good point about the Major Oak, except that Robin Hood, if he existed at all, probably existed in the later twelfth or thirteenth centuries, so only about 7 or 800 years ago. How old is the tree, does anyone know? If Bayliss is right and he wrote recently, it could have been 200-300 years old already when Robin Hood was alive--if he ever lived! In any case, the tradition that associates Robin Hood with the Major Oak is relatively recent, I believe.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:36 PM

Robin Hood is a historic figure who dates back about a thousand years, so one wonders about this tree in the photo. It would have been a sapling. I would suggest that the world "oak" in question in the quote is a metaphorical use of the word or perhaps a single word used in a collective manner (just as "deer" or "fish" can be singular or plural) to indicate that they hid in an oak forest or brake of some sort.

For texts that could provide something closer to an accounting of the role of trees, try examining texts that we know come from very early periods. Sappho and Aesop were contemporaries (may even have known each other) going back to about 600bc. Beowulf is another many are familiar with.

The argument against old texts is that they're translated. Words may have been cleaned up, missed, or mistranslated.

The argument for old texts is that they're translated. Most of us can't read the old forms, and the translators could. If they got it right, a lot of sub-text stuff came through, including everyday activities and the "furnishings" of the world in which the story takes place. Including trees, food, furniture, housing, etc.

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:17 PM

I just remembered that the origin of Beth Luis Nion was Roderick O'Flaherty's Ogygia, which was seventeenth, not eighteenth century. It was O'Flaherty who claimed to have it from a bard, who in turn claimed it was ancient and pagan in origin...

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:20 PM

The problem with a lot of these interpretations, from a folklorist's point of view, is that they're so devoid of specificity:

"He is Osiris, Mithras, Adonis, Dionysus, and even Jesus."

What exactly does this mean? We already know that different mythical figures have life-stories told about them which follow similar patterns. This was noticed long ago. (Most recently Jospeh Campbell made a cottage industry out of pointing it out, and George Lucas made a major industry out of copying it for "Star Wars" movies.) So, theoretically, you could say that these figures are all the same as one another.

But what good does it do from the standpoint of understanding myths to say "Jesus is both Osiris and Mithras?" It's much more useful to say that Jesus's story is like Osiris's in this specific way, and like Mithras's in this other way, and then interpret the stories to try to see why that would be and what it might mean. The promiscuous equating of all mythic figures who bear some simlarities is a modern-day version of what the Romans did, calling all hammer gods Dis Pater and all sky gods Jupiter; it confuses the issue for people trying to get at the specificity of the stories or the beliefs behind them.

The Beth-Luis Nion alphabet is a great example of romantic wishful thinking transformed into neo-Pagan dogma (or the closest one can come to dogma in such a non-dogmatic set of religions!) It was first published in the 18th century, I think (I have the references on my other computer, so if you want them just ask and I'll try to post from there tonight). There was one single informant, a Scottish highlander with some reputation as a bard. He claimed it had been handed down to him orally and that it had existed since Pagan times. The collector, whose name escapes me, dutifully wrote it all down in a treatise on Scottish history. No historian or folklorist or anthropologist or Archaeologist ever believed it, at least not in modern times. There is no evidence for it independent of this one informant. The only person to pick up on it was (of course) Robert Graves, by profession a fiction writer and poet, whose word was uncritically accepted by many many people, but who Anthropologists and Folklorists think was essentially wrong about most things. So now there are hundreds of websites explaining the supposed "Beth-Luis Nion" alphabet as a truly ancient piece of lore, and the only reference they can muster up is to a twentieth century novelist!

The primary places in which we find the Beth-Luis-Nion alphabet now discussed are among neo-Pagan groups such as the "McFarland Dianics," started in 1971. So we aren't really talking about ancient British folklore, but modern neo-Pagan creative invention based on Robert Graves. Look at any sites or books devoted to Beth-Luis-Nion and you will find that all the references are to Graves and to modern Neo-Pagan books with titles like "The Celtic Tree Oracle."

Ogham itself cannot be proven to predate Christianity in any case. If it did predate the coming of Christianity, it was by barely a century. Almost all Ogham inscriptions are merely of the "X son of Y" type. So most of the later "wisdom" about ogham's connection to trees, calendars, pagan religion, druids, etc. is pure speculation, and the primary example is the usual explanation of "Beth-Luis-Nion."

Wimberley's book is another example of romanticism. The ballad "The Cruel Mother" simply refers to leaning one's back against an oak" in order to have something to push against in childbirth. The oak, we might conjecture, is used because it rhymes conveniently with the next line. There isn't much evidence that this refers to "twining one's arms around a guardian tree" unless one wants to find that. In other ballads with this motif, where a character is firing off some parting shots before dying (eg. Johnnie O Braidislea), it can be understood as a way to steady the character's aim. It's unnecessary to look for "deep" meanings outside of that.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 May 03 - 01:05 PM

"Robin and his merry men must have liked each other a *LOT* if the entire band hid in that oak!"

:>) MMario, have you gone and dug up the roots of Mel Brooks' "Robin Hood --- Men in Tights"? And now this silly song is playing in my head ...

"We're men! We're men in tights (real tight)!
We wander around defending the people's rights ..."

Typical Mudcat day ...

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:23 AM

Perjoratives are common to every language. Pagan meant rural, rustic, but, as Stilly says, in Christian Latin it acquired the meaning of someone who preserved the old idolatry.
In Navajo, anaasazi, anglicized to Anasazi, meant an alien, an enemy, and it was applied to the people who had long before abandoned their settlements in what is now Navajo country. The archaeologists took up the word, and now the ancestral pueblo Indians (who these old peoples were) are known as Anasazi everywhere.

Whether the May-day 'survivals' have anything to do with pre-Christian festivals, or have evolved from medieval celebrations and have had 'pagan' attributes added to them by lovers of old fables is a fertile field for argument.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: MMario
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:20 AM

Robin and his merry men must have liked each other a *LOT* if the entire band hid in that oak!

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:13 AM

Gads, I'm hooked on those venerable oaks now! Check out this picture of the Major Oak of Sherwood Forest!

In his article "King of the Wood -- an examination of the traditions and folklore concerned with the oak tree", Peter Bayliss describes the Major Oak":

"Of course, mention of Sherwood Forest immediately makes one think of Robin Hood and the Major Oak. This gigantic tree, 1000 years old, is still growing in Birkland Wood near Edwinstowe. It is said to have been the meeting place of Robin and his men, and that the entire band used to hide inside the hollow trunk. It seems to have derived its name from a naturalist and antiquarian called Major Haymana Rooke FSA."

For the rest of his article, click here

Enjoy!   daylia

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:06 AM

COINWOLF posted a neat little cat ghost story in the Mudcat name thread in which a peg of oak (no pun intended, Peg *bg*) figures slightly.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Peg
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:50 AM

Found this at a website called whitedragon.co.uk:


One etymology of the word Druid derives it from "dru-wid", meaning "knower of oak trees", but "deru" also means truth or troth and so could also give the meaning "knower of the truth".

In the Ogham, the Oak is given the word Duir. Duir comes from the Gaelic and Sanskrit word meaning "door" and there are many associations to be found linking the oak, not only to the doors of our houses but also as representing a doorway to inner strength and inner spirituality. The Oak will lead the way to the truth, especially where this is connected to part actions and this revelation will bring strength and vision, and a doorway to new understanding.

Sometimes the road for Oak in the Beith-Luis-Nion is given as Dair instead of Duir. The word dair describes a rutting deer and kingship, connected the Oak and the Oak king to the Beltane rites. It is also closely connected to the Daghdha who is linked to the Earth and the physical attributes of food, sex and crude raw physical energy, also uppermost at Beltane.

In the Beith-Luis-Nion system as described by Robert Graves the Oak, being the 7th tree, is central to the 13 moons and is linked to the Summer Solstice. "The lunar month which takes its name from Jupiter, the Oak-god, begins on 10th June and ends on 7th July. Midway comes St John's Day, 24th June, the day on which the Oak King was sacrificially burned alive. TheCeltic year was divided into 2 halves, with the second half beginning in July, apparently after a 7-day wake, or funeral feast, in the Oak King's honour."

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:43 AM

Great thread, and wonderful links! thanks all ...

Here's a few interesting lines from the article "The Mighty Oak" in last year's "Witches' Almanac":

"The oak has long been held sacred, an awe reflected in the prodigious age and impressive height reached by the species. An average life span runs to 250 years, but some oaks in England's Windsor Great Park are over a thousand years old ...

Tales of many ancient European tribes reveal the belief that the oak was the first tree to be created. The Greeks dedicated it to Zeus, and his oracle at Dodona served in an oak grove. Under a great tree a priestess interpreted rustles of the leaves in answer to questions posed by supplicants. Romans believed the oak belonged to the great god Jupiter, and it's leaves were a badge of honor. Oak leaves and acorns formed wedding wreaths to assure fertility. The Teutonic and Scandinavian tribes associated the oak with Thor, god of thunder. Boughs of oak protected home and barn from lightening strikes. Celtic Druids ... so revered the oak tree that their teachings and many spiritual rites were performed in it's shade.

The essential veneration may be traced to the fact that the acorn ... was once a major food source to the wandering tribes of prehistoric Europe.

But look at the tree itself. It's giant twisted form reveals a brooding mystery. The way the branches reach out, turn and thrust against the sky shows it to be the tree a mystic mind would choose as its own. And the acorn in magical lore symbolizes the hightest form of fertility -- creativity of the mind."

The awesome oaks in Windsor Great Park - wow!

More pics of English/Westen European Oaks

And a bit rather painful "Oak-lore" gleaned at this site -- "Toothaches were cured in the 18th century by driving a nail into the tooth or gum until it bled, then driving the nail into an oak tree."

suddenlygratefulformoderndentistrydaylia

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:23 AM

Bearing in mind, of course, that the term "Pagan" is a pejorative christian term that was applied to the Other--and is a term meant to imply that the spiritual practices of non-christians was disapproved of by the church. It is a common human practice to give names to those who are Not Us and end up with those names being what Other(s) are called.

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stewie
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:11 AM

There are several references to the oak tree in L.C. Wimberly's 'Folklore in the English and Scottish Ballads': for example, the twining of arms about a 'guardian tree' to ensure easy delivery in the pangs of childbirth - 'The Cruel Mother'. Other references are to growing in fairy woods, association with enchantment, sanctity of, swearing by and the soul taking its form.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:05 AM

That's my boy!

Wilfried, I have visited the German war cemetry near Mons and it is striking how differrent to the British yours are. Where ours are laid out like a formal English garden, The German fallen lie in a recreation of a forest glade, with oaks the predominent (only?) tree.
Keith.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Peg
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:03 AM

Oak trees are now somewhat "endangered" in forests in the Northeast. Actually, that word is somewhat inaccurate, it is that they face the possibility of not being one of the dominant trees anymore.

It seems that the reduced occurrence of forest fires (which oaks tend to survive, while other trees do not--another mysterious bit of their lore) has allowed other trees to grow faster and utilize nutrients the oaks would normally have access to while new trees grew in the charred earth around them. So the now-ubiquitous red maple has become much more prevalent than it was years ago, and since it grows faster then the oak, has tenbded to overshadow it and push it aside in recent years...and this is changing the composition of forests throughout New England and New York state...

according to the New York Times.

Subject: Oaks & Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Ben A - from Hertford's Green Hills
Date: 21 May 03 - 09:39 AM

Trees are an integral part of the ancient Pagan culture of the British Isles, which survives in many forms and particularly in our folk culture.

On Mayday in our villages Jack o' the Green, or the Green Man dances with the May Queen - an echo of the most ancient human religion. The Green Man is the Horned God. He is the sacrificial scapegoat draped with English Oak. He is Osiris, Mithras, Adonis, Dionysus, and even Jesus. He is the dying and rising God of nature and wild places who is born at the Winter Solstice (Christmas), arrives in the wilds at Imbolc, dies at the festival of the Goddess Oestre (Easter) and rises again three days later.

In other ancient European cultures the mask of Dionysis, Adonis and other equivalent dying-rising Gods were "crucified" on stakes or trees. Osiris himself was found by the Goddess Isis in a tree, whereupon she ressurected him.


Many trees are vital to our ancient culture. The custom of touching or knocking on wood comes from a time when our ancestors would awaken the tree spirits for help, a prayer or a spell.

Oak is the wise old tree of the Horned Sun God, the Green King of the Greenwood.

Willow is the moon/water tree of the Triple Goddess in her waxing (Maiden) and full moon (mother) phase - and the wood of the witches wand.

Hazel is the mystic wood of the wizard's staff and offers "Green Man" style invisibility to those who are initiated in the ancient ways.

Elder is another Goddess tree. Its wise, wizzened trunk is home to the Triple Goddess in her Crone aspect - the aspect of the waning moon.

These and others are trees of medicine and magic to Pagans and workers of magic.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: ooh-aah
Date: 21 May 03 - 05:28 AM

I know that there is a strong link between oaks and the English God Thunor (Scandianian 'Thor') - apparently scholars think that this connection between the oak and thunder gods may have something to do with the frequency with which lightneing strikes them. On tree-lore in general its worth pointing out that Germanic heathens saw the worlds as being cradled in the branches of Yggdrasil, a vast ash (or possibly yew) tree.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Jeanie
Date: 21 May 03 - 04:52 AM

What an interesting thread !   Information about the oak from a Germanic Heathen perspective can be found here:
http://www.ealdriht.org/herbms.html

-jeanie

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:50 AM

An interesting link is in the thread Folklore: Fable and Phrase with some entries about the oak.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:43 AM

Thanks for the link, Masato. The same fits for the oak in Germany. The German oak is proverbial for strength and endurance in battle.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:14 AM

Gratuitous link to Hob y deri dando continuing the mention of deri= 'oak' in Welsh

Nigel