Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 22 May 03 - 03:30 AM

It's not that there's no evidence for Robin Hood, it's that there's too much. In court rolls and other government documents, different people at different times were given the nickname "Robin Hood" to signify that they were outlaws, suggesting that there was a legend already. This goes back to 1262. Before that, the evidence waits to be discovered; the court rolls and other documents of that era are very difficult to read, and no-one would think of doing so in a quest for a single name! Although a Robert Hod who was outlawed for non-payment of debt does turn up in the 1226 York Assizes, there is no evidence whatsoever that this is the famous outlaw or that he had any exploits at all apart from skipping town to get out of paying! It seems from a marginal note that his nickname was Hobbe, not Robin, in any case.

The upshot is that a "real" Robin Hood is not actually well-documented, or even documented at all. To quote Jeffrey Singman's 1998 book, "no widely accepted candidate has been found, and it may be questioned whether such a discovery is at all possible."

The stories about Robin's death at Kirklees date to the late 1400s at least--the prioress, who is Robin's cousin, in fact bleeds him to death rather than poisoning him, because she is in cahoots (and in love) with an enemy of Robin's, Roger of Doncaster. This is alluded to in several ballads, including the Geste of Robin Hood.

The grave site at Kirklees cannot be verified, and the stone marker that reportedly used to stand there until the eighteenth century is certainly a fake. The epitaph was based on a poem by Martin Parker written in the seventeenth century, but translated into pseudo-old English. It identified Robin as the Earl of Huntingdon, but the Earldom of Huntingdon was held by the Scottish royal family during the relevant centuries. Thus, unless we are to believe that the King of Scotland (or one of his brothers, depending on the year) was running about as an outlaw in England, it is impossible that Robin was the Earl of Huntingdon, and thus impossible that the epitaph is anything more than a cute piece of fiction.

Geez, we happen to be talking about two of the things I've researched recently: tree-lore and Robin Hood! Sorry to be such a...well, nerd!

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:45 AM

From A Concordance to the Child Ballads:

oak (13)
91A.13    2   /as she sits in her chair of oak,/And bid her come to my
91A.19    2   /as you sit in a chair of oak,/And bids you come to her
103A.18    1   leand her back against an oak,/And gae a loud Ohone!/Then
101C.10   3   it roun wi the leaves o oak,/And gart it burn wi ire.
18D.6   2    /And he cut down the oak and the ash as he came along.
20D.3   1    set her back untill an oak,/First it bowed and then it
101A.17   1   /O he's pu'd the oak in good green wood,/An he's
90A.7   4   grave,/Beneath a green oak tree.
102B.18    4   dead,/Beneath the green oak tree.
103A.45    4   /Stands by yon green oak tree?
90A.20    4   /Beneath that green oak tree.'
102B.23    2    came,/Unto the green oak tree,/And there he saw his
20[O.5]    1   leant her back against an oak,/With bitter sighs these words

oake (1)
67A.18      2    a full great othe,/By oake and ashe and thorne,/`Lady,

oaken (4)
65E.12    4    /To be burnt in a oaken'
245D.11    3    /An whar he's wantit an oaken bolt/He's beat the yellow
245D.9      3   pin,/An whar ye want an oaken bolt/Ye'll beat the yellow
101B.24    3    the fire,/Well set about wi oaken spells,/That leamd oer

oak-tree (2)
156E.12      2      bower,/Beyond yon dark oak-tree I drew a penknife frae
142B.21      2    /And danced about the oak-tree:/`If we drink water while

~Masato

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 May 03 - 05:12 AM

Additions:

oke (10)
31.27    3    shee sate/Betweene an oke and a green hollen;/Shee was
31.15    3    shee sate/Betwixt an oke and a greene hollen;/She was
137A.22    1 /At last Kits oke caught Robin a stroke/That
126A.8    3    I have a staff of another oke graff,/I know it will do the
126A.13    3    I have a staff of another oke graff,/Not half a foot longer
126A.12    3    took up a staff of another oke graff,/That was both stiff and
8C.20    1    thou behinde this sturdie oke soone will quell their pride;
126A.15    2    reply'd,/`My staff is of oke so free;/Eight foot and a half,
137A.5    1    /A good oke staffe, a yard and a halfe,/
126A.36    2    danc'd round about the oke tree;/'For three merry men,

oken (2)
101[D.18]    3    /And he made a fire of the oken speals,/An warmed his lady
137A.18    2    Hood,/`Ffor ye have got oken staves;/But tarie till wee can

okes (1)
116A.56    2    bete on the gate,/With str' okes greate and stronge;

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:49 AM

Nerd, I'll have to keep my eyes open for the program that I picked up my information from and check out its date and sources. It has been long enough since I saw it that I don't remember many of the names you mention, if they were present or not. Bleeding or poisoning--either will get the job done! The information was presented in such a way as to suggest that there weren't ambiguities such as you catalog.

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:20 PM

SRS,

Both A&E (Biography) and the History Channel (History's Mysteries) have done Robin Hood shows in the last few years. The thing is, both those shows had to suggest that there was a historical person because of the nature of the show--biographical and historical, not folkloric and legendary. So they did include the ambiguity we've spoken of, but they usually disguise it by finishing each section with a line like: "so, although not all historians are convinced, there's a good chance this obscure churchyard is Robin Hood's final resting place." It's not inaccurate, because it's true that "not all historians are convinced," but it would be more honest to say that "no historians are convinced!"

TV docs pick interviewees from a wide range of people. Usually they've got one historian whose carefully-edited interviews present only the more positive side of their arguments (I know this 'cause I've read their books), one re-enactor who tells you how Robin Hood "would have done things," one neo-pagan spokesperson who talks about the more mystical side of Robin Hood, and the current Sheriff of Nottingham, who wants people to visit the Robin Hood theme park there and so does a good deal of public speaking about Robin Hood in Nottingham. They don't really make it clear who's who, because they can just list J.C. Holt (an eminent Cambridge historian), John Matthews (a well-known neo-pagan author and spiritual workshop leader), and Richard Whatsisname (a re-enactor; I really did forget his name) as "Author:" with the title of their respective Robin Hood books. It looks like they're all equally expert.

Both shows actually do a rather good job of covering many aspects of the legend, but both try to leave viewers with the general impression that there was a historical figure because they are shows dedicated to history and biography.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:30 PM

Oh, SRS, I should also say that in the Robin Hood world, there is a partisan battle that goes on between Yorkshire and Nottingham that is partly about tourist dollars and partly about county pride. Each group wants to prove that the "real Robin Hood" lived in their county. The early ballads are split between Sherwood Forest (Nottinghamshire) and Barnesdale (Yorkshire), so each side has a legitimate claim. It even gets silly, with some of the Nottingham crowd claiming that the "Barnesdale" of the ballads was really a small hollow within Sherwood Forest called "Bernisdale," and not the famous Yorkshire Barnesdale which is ludicrous given the geographic specificity of the Barnesdale ballads.

Because of this war of words, there is always a ready supply of "researchers" (really enthusiasts) who are willing to claim that "we have a good candidate for the Prioress of Kirklees in 1234" or what-have-you. Serious historians don't agree with them, but they are considerably more vocal than serious historians. I seem to remember one of the shows presenting some of these views, so that may be the one you saw.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:53 PM

There is also the layering on of fiction from movies and television. As a child I remember watching Richard Greene as Robin Hood--I don't remember anyone else in the cast. And there were quite a few viewings of the Errol Flynn/Basil Rathbone/Claude Raines version also. I haven't seen the newer films, Connery and Hepburn, or the Costner telling. If anything, I'll go dig out the Mel Brook's movie.

The trees portrayed in the Flynn movie must have been oaks--even if they were a California variety. They're just the best kind of tree for dangling netting and conducting ambushes from, I'm sure of it!
;-)

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 22 May 03 - 01:00 PM

A highwayman tosses a coin to a peasant- and the legend is born!

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 May 03 - 01:47 PM

I just found a picture of me, about 5 years old. My brother had just come home for a visit from Southern Illinois Uni. and had brought me a Robin Hood cap, complete with long feather. I already had the bow and arrows. Anyway, I've got the hat, which says "Robin Hood" on it, on in the picture.:-) I'd forgotten about it until now.

I would imagine there must be some songs about the Charter Oak (scroll down) of Connecticut. It's quite a tale of how the early patriots hid their Constitution from the English in the 1600's, for over two years, in the hollow of a grand old oak tree. There is still a first-generation "offspring" of the original Charter Oak in Bushnell Park, in Hartford. There is a picture of it on that same page.

kat

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 May 03 - 10:18 AM

kat, that's quite the story about the Charter Oak - too bad it's days of gracing the landscape are over! I really enjoyed the link re multiple Robins - thanks. I've a hunch that this hypothesis re the origins of the Robin Hood legends (found at this section of kat's link) is the closest to the truth -- "The first Robin Hood play is recorded as being performed at Exeter, not long after the first May Games are recorded there. Professor Lorraine Stock notes that Exeter Cathedral is filled with "Green Man" imagery, the human head with foliage growing out of his mouth. The Green Man, like Robin, has ties to the virgin Mary. (The Exeter Cathedral is dedicated to her.) And Stock feels that the traditions of the Green Man, and the Wild Man, influenced the growth of the Robin Hood legend."

Interesting that "Robin" was also a medieval name for the "devil", and that the color green was often associated with the devil.

Nerd, I'm so GLAD you're a nerd! Thanks so much for your most interesting and informative posts! May your "nerdliness" prevail ...

You too, SRS (not the nerdliness, of course!) This is a wonderful thread ...

Masato, thanks for your verses from the "Concordance of Child's Ballads"!   I looked up the word "bower", and found it meant a dwelling or shelter, particularly one made out of "tree boughs or vines twined together: ARBOR (as in a garden)".   Now I have a question -- does this have anything to do with the fact that in the game of Eucher, the Jacks of the same color are called "Right and Left Bowers"?   The "Bowers" are the highest trump cards in the deck, beating even the Kings, Queens and Aces. Quite the "Bower-Power" granted to the lowly, "common" Jacks! Reminds me a lot of the Robin Hood legends.

daylia

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 02:52 PM

The bowers in Euchre seem to come from another meaning of the word- peasant. Both cards are "knaves." The term applied to cards first appeared in 1872, in the Bret Harte story, "Heathen Chinee."

Bower in the sense of cover, canopy (and eventually arbor) first appeared in print in the 16th century.

There are several other meanings to the word. See OED. The earliest meaning was a dwelling or place of abode.

Bowery, the NY area, came from an old meaning of bower; a farm.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 03 - 03:44 PM

Bowery in New York was probably a Dutch word then, because back when Manhattan still had farms it was also probably still Dutch.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 03 - 05:57 PM

According to the New Nederland Project (in pdf, sorry), bowery does come from the Dutch bouwerij or boerderij and became known as such from the original name of Petrus (Peter) Stuyvesant's farm/plantation.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 06:50 PM

There were farms in parts of what is now New York City in the 19th century.

Bowery:
Dutch bouwer, farmer, from bouwen, to till. "A colonial Dutch plantation or farm." Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

Bower: The English word, usages for farm, peasant, did come from the Dutch bouwer, or German bauer, first appearing in the 15th century.

Bowery: "a farm, a 'plantation', hence the 'Bowery' in New York City."
The term was first used in "Knickerbocker Tales," by Washington Irving in 1809. OED.

Since bouwerij means farm or husbandry in Dutch, the entry in the website would mean that the original name of Stuyvesant's farm was 'farm,' hardly likely. But the name DID come from his farm. Stuyvesant had gone back to Holland after the English took over, but was reviled at home as a loser, so he came back to New York and set up a farm, a 'bowery.' St. Mark's Church is built over his grave site.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:12 PM

Over his grave site, or he's buried in the churchyard?

Sounds like the English went a-bowerrowing this bit of the language, eh? ;-)

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:29 PM

The church is on the site of his grave. Don't know if they moved his remains or just plowed them under. Need a NY history buff here.

English is a conglomerate of Indo-European languages. And some from outside that big group. That is why it is the current internatioal language, like Latin used to be for a long time.

Esperanto is, and will remain, as useless as Klingon. Sorry, Leland.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:57 PM

I'll be there next month with my 15-year-old daughter, her first trip to The City. If we go by there I'll ask. Or the place to get some good Stuyvesant information is at Federal Hall, where they have an exhibit and some of his artifacts.

SRS

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 03 - 09:47 PM

Well, there is an interesting paper on Stuyvesant by a scholarly descendant at this site, which includes this bit:

In the spring of 1651 Stuyvesant purchased from the Dutch West India Company land which he called the Great Bowery (or farm). This property ran from the East River to the present Fourth Avenue and Broadway in an area bounded by Fifth Street on the south and Seventeenth Street on the north, roughly the Lower East Side of Manhattan. He paid 6400 guilders for the land. He had a house there, a barn, six cows, two horses and two young Negroes. It was clear that Stuyvesant meant to remain on Manhattan for some time.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: ooh-aah
Date: 23 May 03 - 10:10 PM

It's amusing that Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire argue as to which of their counties Robin Hood was from, when of course he was a Derbyshire lad. Little John certainly was, he's buried in Hathersage!

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 10:45 PM

Not clear if the farm that he had after his return to New York (in 1667) was the same as the one that he had before the English takeover in 1664. He was absent for about three years and may have disposed of the earlier farm. The Bowery is named after the one he held at his death in 1672. I haven't been able to track this down.

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:17 PM

This brief bio seems reasonably accurate. Stuyvesant
It seems that he kept the same farm of 62 acres, the "Great Bowerie," which was tilled and maintained by 50 slaves. His house burned down in 1777. His son's house still exists as the Fish mansion.

A partial answer for Stilly R S- his tomb is in the outer wall of St. Mark's Church, which, as a chapel, was maintained for a time by his wife. A little more data at Tomb St Mark's
The chapel was replaced by the church. Stuyvesant ST

links fixed
by a
joe clone

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:25 PM

I won't try to relink the two I messed up.
WWW.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/stuyvesant/stuy.html
www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=999

Subject: RE: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:47 PM

Q, Thanks--the last couple of links aren't working, but I went looking on my own. Here is a chronology at St. Marks.

I have thought about the exhibits at Federal Hall--I had the wrong personage. It's John Peter Zenger whose printing press was on display, though there could also have been Stuyvesant objects also. Here is an online timetable site that might be of interest to some of you.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 May 03 - 12:33 PM

Thanks everyone for the information about the word "bower". If the origins of the game Euchre do lie with the Pennsylvania Dutch, then the meaning of the word "bower" as "farmer" does make sense.

However, there is some debate as to the origins of Euchre. Some enthusiasts point to 18th century Europe and the French card game "Juker", in which a Joker was used as a "wild card" or "best bower", higher than the right/left bowers and trumps (some American players still use the Joker today). It's said that the English loved the game but hated it's creators (the French), so the name was changed to "Euchre" before it was brought to America in the 1800's. Either way, the meaning of the word "bower" as "peasant" rings true.

Although the etymology of the word "euchre" is unknown according to Webster's on-line dictionary, some say it has it's roots in the Greek "EOS", which means "favor or grace". (The Greek "eos" is also the root of the word "Eucharist", the breaking of the bread, or holy sacrament of the Catholic Mass). My own interpretation is that the game of Euchre probably expresses an ancient dream of the "common people" - to be (divinely?) "empowered" beyond that of even royalty.

Which brings us back to Robin Hood and the Major Oak. There's more information and pictures of this ancient tree, said to be the oldest in England at over 800 years, at this link.

Considering the time-honored European beliefs about oak trees being sacred "vessels of the Divine", dwelling places for woodland spirits/faerie folk and mediums of prophecy and knowledge, there's little wonder that Robin and his merry men came to be associated with an oak tree. This association lends even more credibility to the theory that the Robin Hood legends have their roots in the ancient Celtic pagan god of Nature, the "Green Man" or "Wild Man". (Parallels are found in the Greek god "Pan"). And certainly this association would have made him an "outlaw", a hero of the common folk who wished to remain loyal to their "old ways" once the Christianization of the British Isles began in earnest.

No discussion of "sacred oaks" would be complete without mentioning St. Boniface and the Oak of Donar (Thor) St. Boniface was the English missionary who converted the Germanic peoples to Christianity in the 8th century. The Germanic peoples had long revered the "sacred" oak, decorating it with golden apples at the Winter Solstice.

Apparently St. Boniface was so determined to rid the people of their ancient pagan "oak-worship" that he "felled a great oak tree that was a center of worship for the then Druid peoples. In felling the tree Saint Boniface hoped to symbolize the end of the old beliefs. However, the legend maintains that a small fir sapling was somehow left standing (or later appeared, depending on the version of the legend), and the missionary offered up this new tree as a symbol for emergence of the new Christian beliefs. (Hey, if you're dealing with tree worshipers, its best not to push them too far in one step!) So, hence forth, fir trees came to be associated with the early Christian rituals in this part of the world. Instead of decorating oak trees for the winter solstice, as had been the custom in pagan times, the new found Christians decorated fir trees for "Christmas" (the mass celebrating Christ's birth)... The early missionaries of Christendom were wise enough to know that it was one thing to change the nature of the gods people believed in (and which type of tree they might revere), but it was quite another thing to tamper with the timing of a great and traditional festival. So the Christian stories and mythology were adapted to the existing culture of these people ("the return of the sun" shifted to the "coming of the son"), and in much the same manner Christianity and other religions have spread and continue to spread to this day." (emphasis mine). So that's why today's Christmas trees are evergreens and not oaks!

There are many other versions of this story. One is that St. Boniface felled the Oak of Donar to prevent a human sacrifice about to be performed by the Druids there -- a tale which certainly serves to "demonize" the Druids and their pagan ways. Another is that he did not stop with the Oak of Donar, but sought to destroy all the oaks in Germany. For another rendition of the tale, click here.

Oak-ay, I'm all done for now!   

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 May 03 - 02:26 PM

Euchre- the OED says the term has long been thought to be German, but "no probable source has been found in that language." The OED speculates that it could be the American-Spanish word yuca, or "cock of the walk." This is more likely since the game is American as far as is known, first mentioned in print in the 1840s, but the quotation implies that the game had been around for some time.
Railroad euchre has a joker.
The term 'bower' may have been an addition to the game since it is not known in print before the 1860s.
On the other hand, bower in the meaning of peasant was taken into English at least by the 1400s, long before the 'Pennsylvania Dutch' came to America.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 May 03 - 06:05 PM

Well, for Robin Hood and his merry men, the 'bower' sounds like the right place to be, according to Child's Ballad No. 150 -- Robin Hood and Maid Marian.

"14 When bold Robin Hood his Marian did see,
         Good lord, what clipping was there!
       With kind imbraces, and jobbing of faces,
         Providing of gallant cheer.


15 For Little John took his bow in his hand,
       And wandring in the wood,
   To kill the deer, and make good chear,
       For Marian and Robin Hood.


16 A stately banquet the[y] had full soon,
      All in a shaded bower,
   Where venison sweet they had to eat,
      And were merry that present hour.


17 Great flaggons of wine were set on the board,
       And merrily they drunk round
   Their boules of sack, to strengthen the back,
       Whilst their knees did touch the ground."


Lusty drunken tree-huggin "bowerish" lot that they were! Seems like they've won just about all the "tricks" too (he he he), including the trick of remaining fertile ground for the birth of fresh new myths, legends and songs for almost a millenium.

Now, I wonder if that particular "bower" mentioned in the ballad was fashioned by twining together the boughs and vines of the Major Oak ...

;>)   daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 May 03 - 08:20 PM

In one of the Robin Hood ballads in Child, Robin has a staff of ground oak. What plant is this?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 03 - 09:46 PM

Wow. Those oaks look Tolkien bred. I've never seen any that massive or gnarled.

Southeast Alaska has no oak at all; I miss them. It's either too wet or too cold or a combination.

Growing up in western Oregon, I and my brothers often slept outdoors under the spreading branches of the grove of oaks that ringed our very large back yard. We didn't have sleeping bags, just bedrolls made up of mother-made comforters; they were heavy and coarse, and our wild barn cats would sleep nestled next to our warm heads and scamper off when we woke. In the mornings we woke very early and padded barefoot through the dew-wet grass to bring in the cows; a magic time.

As to Robin Hood- in the stories I read when I was but a child, Marian was not his inamorata but that of Alan o'Dale. What's the scoop on that?

Robin Hood was my first absolute hero. I was a girl but I saw no contradiction between that and living in vast forests, bow or staff in hand, flitting from tree to tree, miraculously evading capture. Nowadays, of course, I wonder - where did they keep their horses? What did they feed them? If they bought/stole/were given hay in the winter time where did they store the provender? Where did they keep their cooking pots? Their clothes? Why did no one ever stumble upon their campsites?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 May 03 - 10:31 PM

There is a song on one of my Ed McCurdy albums about a "Heathen Chinee" who cheats at Euchre, something to do with a "right bower." This is from memory, I don't have the song handy. I'll have to dig it out. He has packs and packs of cards up the ornamental sleeves of his jacket. (A totally Un-PC song!)

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 May 03 - 11:18 PM

I hope you post the song, Stilly R S. McCurdy or whoever wrote it probably based it on the Bret Harte story, "Heathen Chinee." That story has the first mention in print of the term 'bower' applied to Euchre.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 May 03 - 11:32 PM

GUEST Q, Here's the ballad -- "Robin Hood and Little John" No. 125. According to the link, "ground oak" means an oak sapling. In the ballad, Robin has just met Little John, and the two are testing their 'manliness' (I remember this hilarious scene in the Mel Brooks' movie!):

" 'Thou talkst like a coward,' the stranger reply'd;
'Well armd with a long bow, you stand,
To shoot at my breast, while I, I protest,
Have nought but a staff in my hand.'

'The name of a coward,' quoth Robin, 'I scorn,
Wherefore my long bow I'll lay by;
And now, for thy sake, a staff I will take,
The truth of thy manhood to try.'

Then Robin Hood stept to a thicket of trees,
And chose him a staff of ground-oak;
Now this being done, away he did run
To the stranger, and merrily spoke:

Lo! see my staff, it is lusty and tough,
Now here on the bridge we will play;
Whoever falls in, the other shall win
The battel, and so we'll away...

... The stranger gave Robin a crack on the crown,
Which caused the blood to appear;
Then Robin, enrag'd, more fiercely engag'd,
And followd his blows more severe.

So thick and fast did he lay it on him,
With a passionate fury and ire,
At every stroke, he made him to smoke,
As if he had been all on fire..."


Ah, the legendary "fire-power" of oak-wood! Thor must've been proud!

Speaking of Thor, I found more information about St. Boniface and the Oak of Donar at this link. Certainly no fool, the missionary saw to it that the wood from this great oak was used to build an oratory dedicated to St. Peter. No doubt the construction material itself was the main attraction for the site's new congregation!

" ... Boniface sought to fell a tree of great size, at Geismar, and called, in the ancient language of the region, the oak of Thor.

The man of God was surrounded by the servants of God. When he would cut down the tree, behold a great throng of pagans who were there cursed him bitterly among themselves because he was the enemy of their gods. And when he had cut into the trunk a little way, a breeze sent by God stirred overhead, and suddenly the branchtop of the tree was broken off, and the oak in all its huge bulk fell to the ground. And it was broken into four huge sections without any effort of the brethren who stood by. When the pagans who had cursed did see this, they left off cursing and, believing, blessed God. Then the most holy priest took counsel with the brethren: and he built from the wood of the tree an oratory, and dedicated it to the holy apostle Peter."

Interestingly enough, this site about St. Boniface claims that he was educated partly at the abbey school of Exeter, the community where the first Robin Hood plays were staged! What a coincidence!

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 03 - 12:16 AM

It might not be McCurdy--as I consider it, I think it's Richard Dyer-Bennet. I don't see the song on the Richard Dyer-Bennet 1 CD, so it must be on one of my tapes of other recordings.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 03 - 12:35 AM

Q: I found it: on Richard Dyer-Bennet 12, the song is called "Plain Language from Truthful James." I found it in a search, here is the Bartleby link. It looks like the Bret Harte poem (not story) was simply put to music. I don't know if Dyer-Bennet did the tune; I don't have liner notes handy for this one (I may have it elsewhere around the house, but it's too late to start looking for that tonight). This isn't in the DT.

Of course, at this point, this is total thread creep, as it has nothing to do with oaks or Robin Hood.

SRS

Thomas R. Lounsbury, ed. (1838–1915). Yale Book of American Verse. 1912.
Francis Bret Harte. 1839–1902

200. Plain Language from Truthful James

Table Mountain, 1870

WHICH I wish to remark,   
And my language is plain,   
That for ways that are dark   
And for tricks that are vain,   
The heathen Chinee is peculiar,          5
   Which the same I would rise to explain.   
   
Ah Sin was his name;   
And I shall not deny,   
In regard to the same,   
What that name might imply;   10
But his smile it was pensive and childlike,   
As I frequent remarked to Bill Nye.   
   
It was August the third,   
And quite soft was the skies;   
Which it might be inferred   15
That Ah Sin was likewise;   
Yet he played it that day upon William   
And me in a way I despise.   
   
Which we had a small game,   
And Ah Sin took a hand:   20
It was Euchre. The same   
He did not understand;   
But he smiled as he sat by the table,   
With the smile that was childlike and bland.   
   
Yet the cards they were stocked   25
In a way that I grieve,   
And my feelings were shocked   
At the state of Nye's sleeve,   
Which was stuffed full of aces and bowers,   
And the same with intent to deceive.   30
   
But the hands that were played   
By that heathen Chinee,   
And the points that he made,   
Were quite frightful to see,—   
Till at last he put down a right bower,   35
Which the same Nye had dealt unto me.   
   
Then I looked up at Nye,   
And he gazed upon me;   
And he rose with a sigh,   
And said, "Can this be?   40
We are ruined by Chinese cheap labor,—"   
And he went for that heathen Chinee.   
   
In the scene that ensued   
I did not take a hand,   
But the floor it was strewed   45
Like the leaves on the strand   
With the cards that Ah Sin had been hiding,   
In the game "he did not understand."   
   
In his sleeves, which were long,   
He had twenty-four jacks,—   50
Which was coming it strong,   
Yet I state but the facts;   
And we found on his nails, which were taper,   
What is frequent in tapers,—that 's wax.   
   
Which is why I remark,   55
And my language is plain,   
That for ways that are dark   
And for tricks that are vain,   
The heathen Chinee is peculiar,—   
Which the same I am free to maintain.   60

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 03 - 12:55 AM

Interesting: I found several copies of the Bret Harte book as items in a closed auction. You can click on the images to get enlargements of the title pages.

I think I'll stop now. It feels (after three consecutive postings) like I'm talking to myself. ;-)

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 May 03 - 04:24 PM

The poem first appeared in the Overland Express, followed by the 1870 edition which was issued on nine cards, illustrated by Joseph Hull, in an envelope, with the title "The Heathen Chinee, Plain Language from Truthful James," Western News Co., Chicago. Limited editions with comments and background followed in the 1930s, some of which sell for as much as an original copy.

Apparently it helped inflame anti-Chinese feeling in the United States.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 May 03 - 04:27 PM

Lyr. Add: The Heathen Chinee, Plain Language from Truthful James, by Bret Harte.
Posted by Stilly River Sage, above.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 May 03 - 05:09 PM

The "anti-Chinese feeling" in the US probably had a lot to do with this ...

"And he rose with a sigh,   
And said, "Can this be?   40
We are ruined by Chinese cheap labor,—"   
And he went for that heathen Chinee."

It was the same situation in Western Canada at the time, with the labour unions in BC fighting against the "cheap labor" imported from the Orient.

But 24 Jacks up your sleeve at a Euchre game? Even playing one before the bowers make their appearance? I can believe that "heathen Chinee" had no understanding of the game!


:>)   Thanks SRS!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 03 - 08:25 PM

Er, well, I think that's the point!

In 1884 the Chinese exclusion act (it has been a while since I had to pull this info out of my hat, but it is this name or something similar) restricted the direct entry into the U.S. by Chinese laborors or immigrants. The companies that built the railroads and ran the mines had been encouraging them to come for many years. In theory the law was intended to a degree to protect the Chinese who were being treated dreadfully by that time by some of the employers and by the communities they lived in or near. Many came in through Canada, sometimes crossing the continent north of the border and coming in via the eastern cities to avoid detection.

It seems to me that there was a real hardship also because men were still getting in but women weren't allowed in, making it difficult to bring families or wives (or potential wives) here. I'll have to go look it up before I try expanding on this idea. Which gets ever further from Robin Hood and oaks (unless you want to get into stories like the 1854 The Life and Adventures of Joaquín Murieta, the Celebrated California Bandit by John Rollin Ridge, which is a Western take on an old theme of stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, all mixed up with Chinese laborors and Mexicans and Indians. It was actually an allegory to do with what was going on in Cherokee land, where Ridge's father was murdered and other family members killed or put off of the land. That was the richer taking from the well-to-do, in Ridge's case.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 May 03 - 02:13 AM

Bower for a peasant seems reasonable. Don't forget the Germans whose language is often called Dutch over there.
Here we find Bauer = peasant, the sound au pronounced like in how.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 May 03 - 03:47 AM

On the other hand, when we are discussing trees there is only one item possible:
bower n : a framework that supports climbing plants; "the arbor provided a shady resting place in the park" [syn: {arbor}, {arbour}, {pergola}] v : enclose in a bower [syn: {embower}]
source

as used by Coleridge in
this poem

A framework isn't necessary if we consider the broad branches of the oak.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 26 May 03 - 09:08 AM

As noted previously, Bower with regard to shelter or plants has several meanings, most of which were in the English language by the 1400s or before (OED); Old English from Teutonic roots:
1. a dwelling or abode (in print by AD 1000).
2. an idealized place ("dear lovely bowers of innocence...").
3. a covered stall or booth at a fair.
4. a chamber in a large house or building.
5. a boudoir or lady's apartment.
6. a lady's attendant.

7. a place overarched with branches.
8. a shady recess, a covert.
9. a large nest.
10. a shaded run, for animals.
11. "The bower that wanders in meanders, ever bending, Glades on Glades." Addison 1706.
12. "Care must be had that you do not confound the word bower with arbour, because the first is always built long and arch'd, whereas the second is always round or square at Bottom, and has a sort of dome or ceiling at the top." Bradley Family Dictionary, 1727.
13. Branches of a tree.
14. To enclose (in a structure).

Bower. In the meaning of farmer, a husbandman, a tenant who rents a herd of cows, etc., was in use in English from the 15th century or earlier, but is now obsolete (From Ger. bauer of Dutch bouwer, as noted before).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 May 03 - 09:40 AM

Wilfried, thanks for the link - that's one of the best on-line dictionaries I've seen yet, and certainly the most complete explanation of the word "bower".

It's tempting to draw connections between "bower" meaning --

(1) pergola or arbor (a shelter built in the trees)
(2) boor, or peasant/farmer
(3) a "knave", or common "jack" who becomes elevated in power/stature      
    over even kings and queens
(4) one who uses a longbow or strongbow (as in bows and arrows)
(5) a joker or trickster (as in Euchre's 'best bower')

--- and Robin Hood, who fits the bill quite well in all 5 cases! But as SRS points out, there are plenty of similiar stories, "like the 1854 The Life and Adventures of Joaquín Murieta, the Celebrated California Bandit by John Rollin Ridge, which is a Western take on an old theme of stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, all mixed up with Chinese laborors and Mexicans and Indians." So it's probably going out on quite a limb to assume such correspondences ...

Back to the "Mighty Oaks" for a moment, I did a web search yesterday to find out if there were any famous oaks in Canada, and came up with these:

The Treaty Oak at Niagara-on-the-Lake Ontario, where the first treaty money was paid to the native peoples by the first Indian agent in Canada. Only remnants of this great red oak remain at 407 King Street in that town.

The Parliament Oak, also in Niagara-on-the-Lake, where on May 1 1793, " there was passed on this spot the Seventh Act of Parliament, freeing the slaves in Upper Canada. Thus Canada became the first British possession to provide by legislation for the abolition of slavery, 79 years before slavery was abolished in the United States."

It's fascinating that even centuries after Europeans were "cured" of their Druidic oak-worshipping ways by people like St. Boniface, the "mythic" oak tree was chosen to "witness" -- even "protect", as in the case of the American Charter Oak -- the most important of historical treaties/events on a new continent!

Yet it's very unfortunate that here in Ontario, the mightiest and oldest of the oaks and maples and pines were felled long ago, victims of the material ambitions of the newcomers to this continent. I found a bit of the story of the demise of Ontarios great primeval forests at this site :

"The Loyalists who moved here had to chop through one of the thickest walls of forest in North America to reach the soil. The settlers developed a hatred for trees and they "killed" these natural enemies by setting fire to them or by cutting a deep gash through the bark right around the tree to stop the tree from being nourished; the tree gradually died. For fifty years the pioneers of Essex County competed in a race to destroy the dense forest that kept them from the fertile soil. Fire became a symbol of material progress. Citizens of Chicago, 300 miles away, admired the glow in the sky on several occasions when millions of cords of Essex County hardwood (oak and walnut) went up in smoke as the settlers struggled to clear at least five acres as stipulated for their first year improvement, and then to enlarge their farms as each year went by."

The little village of Midhurst Ontario, where I live, is named after Midhurst England, where some of the oldest oaks and chestnuts in England still grow. There are pics of them at this link I posted above. Scroll down to the third picture, the awesome chestnut of Cowdray Park in Midhurst England.

Unfortunately, all of the forest around Midhurst Ontario was clear-cut about 100 years ago. The topsoil blew away, and the land was devastated, becoming a sandy desert. The first reforestation nurseries/experimental forest areas in Canada were opened in Midhurst about 60 years ago. Today the area is treed once more --- with tall, thin, almost branchless spindly red pines that are planted in rows way too close together. They are quite ugly-looking .... I call them "pencil-trees".

But I guess they're better than nothing ...

Sometimes I dream about what the primeval forests around here must have looked like over a century ago, before the white men came with their axes. Call me a tree-hugger, but it's hard not to mourn for them. Midhurst England looks nothing like her name-sake on this continent ...and I live about 2 blocks from a street called "Cowdray Park Lane"...

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 May 03 - 09:53 AM

Q, that's a great list! So "bower" also means a lady's boudoir, apartment or attendant? Oooo, that Robin was a wily fellow! ;>)

Just wondering what's happened to the GUEST who started this thread -- was that you, Q? If not, funny that s/he's disappeared ...

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 03 - 06:56 AM

No I am still here and have watched this mighty thread grow from a small acorn. Which leads me to my next question where does the Greenman fit in with all this

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 27 May 03 - 07:31 AM

Well, the "Green Man" or "Wild Man" of preChristian Europe can quite easily be seen to have associations with the Robin Hood legends. And Robin is connected by local tradition with the Major Oak of Sherwood Forest.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 03 - 11:59 AM

Those Green/Wildman connections might be a tad too squishy to support an argument along with Robin Hood. There are ancient legends (also on the continent, not just in Great Britain) of the Green Knight, along with Gawain and Arthur and the Holy Grail; those have been associated with Adonis and Attis (the vegetation gods with the annual death/rebirth rituals). I suspect Robin Hood is going to come across as Gawain-lite in this context.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: MMario
Date: 27 May 03 - 12:13 PM

I find this little article on the Green Man :

notes on the Green Man

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 27 May 03 - 01:20 PM

Original guest probably is just standing back to watch the nonsense flow.

There are major problem with the entries in the 1913 Webster's- perhaps not so much the entries as their interpretation because of the lack of dates and relationships. Much has been added to our knowledge since its time. This now-failed competitor to the OED never used supporting quotations or had the breadth of scholarship of the OED contributors. The 1976 3rd Edition, even though it had been taken over by the Encyclopaedia Britannica, probably did not return printing costs.

1. Euchre has little to do with the rest, since the game (first known in the United States) is now thought to be a Spanish or Spanish-American game (yuca) introduced to the United States during the 19th century. (first known reference 1861). Terminology probably much changed from the original by American players, and bower probably a substitute for gabinete (various meanings including chamber, bower in sense of an enclosure, etc.).

2. Manyt of bower's many meanings are found in late old English to Medieval texts in England, illustrating the origin of the word in Anglo-Saxon and other Teutonic relationships in the developing English language. It did not come from later German or Dutch contact.

3. The connection of the pop ballads (Child devoted over 30 to this thief, but some written long after the first)) about a highwayman or renegade nobleman in Medieval Europe (but especially in the "greenwoods" (forests) of England) to the "Green Man" tales is dubious.
The Green Knight appeared in dances and plays in late medieval times, but especially in the 15th century and combined with popular characters of the day, including Robin, the fictional St. George, and the May Queen. The "expulsion" of winter, by then, bore little or no resemblance to the pagan rituals.

Whether the revived Mediaeval Green man was related to anything in the Roman tales of pagan rituals is speculation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 03 - 02:47 PM

Q, get yourself of copy of Jessie Weston's From Ritual to Romance. She did a lot of research, including material that dates back to sanskrit texts from India.

Here's a review that seems to appear in identical form on all of the web book sites:

Acknowledged by T. S. Eliot as crucial to understanding "The Waste Land," Jessie Weston's book has continued to attract readers interested in ancient religion, myth, and especially Arthurian legend. Weston examines the saga of the Grail, which, in many versions, begins when the wounded king of a famished land sees a procession of objects including a bleeding lance and a bejewelled cup. She maintains that all versions defy uniform applications of Celtic and Christian interpretations, and explores the legend's Gnostic roots. Drawing from J. G. Frazer, who studied ancient nature cults that associated the physical condition of the king with the productivity of the land, Weston considers how the legend of the Grail related to fertility rites--with the lance and the cup serving as sexual symbols. She traces its origins to a Gnostic text that served as a link between ancient vegetation cults and the Celts and Christians who embellished the story. Conceiving of the Grail saga as a literary outgrowth of ancient ritual, she seeks a Gnostic Christian interpretation that unites the quest for fertility with the striving for mystical oneness with God.

Here it is at Amazon. It includes a disparaging review, though I think that party is way too hard on the book. You might want to look up some Joseph Campbell to see what he says on this subject--he's bound to have, at some time or other.

Here's a Robin Hood text.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 May 03 - 03:28 PM

Jessie Weston's book is a great read, but, as I discovered thirty years ago when I drew on her ideas quite heavily in an undergraduate essay on something or other, was even then considered extremely unreliable; and would not, I suspect, be considered useful to serious study today except as an interesting side-light on thinking on the subject in the early years of the 20th century. It is, of course, essential to any study of The Waste Land, but that's another matter.