BS: Roadmap to peace

Subject: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 May 03 - 11:49 AM

I didn't want to bury this in one of the many threads about Israel and Palestine. I find the recent developments quite promising. A little light of hope.

Prime minister Mahmud Abbas obviously means business on the road to peace (other than weasely Arafat) and the recent suicide bombs in their timing were meant as a signal to him not to give up the all or none position of Arafat.

Sharon too can be heard with (for him) new tones: "I think, the notion, it would be possible to keep 3.5 Million Palestinians occupied for good - yes, it is occupation, even if you don't like the word, what happens here is occupation - is bad for Israel and bad for the Palestinians and bad for Israel's economy." That's what he told his dumbfounded Likud faction in the face of furious hecklers and he told them he would go this way further even if the whole faction of Likud was voting against him. "That's my historical duty" he said.

The Hamas and Al Aksa suicide brigades will do all they can to prevent the road map to peace to come into effect and there are some like-minded extremists in Israel as well that would do everything they can to torpedo any peaceful solution.

But in the best case there will be an armistice soon accompanying real negotiations. In the end, extremists from both sides will be bypassed: Palestine will recognise Israel and this Israel will be a bit larger than the 1967 borders were. Israel will give up many of the so-called settlements and will stop impeding sovereignty of Palestine. Of course, that's hardly more than what the famous resolution 1441 had said all the time, but sometimes peace only comes from mutual exhaustion.

I wish the protagonists strength and good luck (and that's what they need, for would-be assassins are abundant in both camps). Abbas, I believe, is willing but I'm not sure whether he is able. Sharon is able, but is he willing? Arafat is neither willing nor able, but I hope he is by now too weak to influence the future.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 27 May 03 - 02:05 PM

Wolfgang,

The developments of the past two days would indicate that Abbas and Sharon are prepared to make peace.

It is Arafat who has revealed himself for the enemy of peace that he is. He seems determined to do his best to undermine Abbas' efforts. Let us not forget that the suicide terrorists of Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade belong to Arafat's own Fatah militia.

Be that as Arafat may, let us hope that Sharon and Abbas, with the help and hopefully firm hand of Bush, can bring the peace that most people, on both sides of the conflict, truly want.

The peace is impossible some say. However, in my parents' lifetime Nazi Germany perpetrated mass genocide against the Jewish people, and today, Germany and Israel have good relations. If that was possible, and it was, then so is peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: DougR
Date: 27 May 03 - 04:37 PM

I certainly hope you are both right! I, too, think it looks encouraging, but for all the reasons you both stated, it is going to be a dicey situation.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 03 - 08:19 PM

It doesn't have a chance. The Isreali's will not give up the the land they have stolen. There are enought loopholes in this plan to allow Sharon to escape dealing with consessions and blaming the Palestians.

Guarenteed.

This is all just gamemanship, posturing and politics but has no chance of sucess until Isreal is willing to return what it has stolen and get the heck out of the Palestinians faces with their tanks and bulldozers.

I hope I'm wrong, but don't think so....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,Abbas
Date: 27 May 03 - 09:11 PM

Memo

From: Abbas
To: Sharon

We have decided to cancel all negotiations with you because we have been advised, by the wise Bobert, that you will never get out of our faces.

Now that Bobert has Guarenteed (sic) the results, there's no point to pursuing peace.

Oh well. It would have been nice to have made peace and created a Palestinian state. But, there's no way we can overcome Bobert's Guarentee (sic).

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:02 PM

Abbas;

Real funny....

Ahhhh, given Sharon's background, do you really believe there is so much as an ouch of sincerity in the Isreali response?

Okay, make that a half an ounce?

A quarter of an ounce?

A trace?

Okay, a danged trace of a trace?

Isreal holds all the cards here. They have their number one allie (the US) also as an occupying nation (Iraq). So like what do they have to gain? Nothing, that's what. Hey, they stole the Plaestianian's land fair and square, just as the US has stole Iraq's oil fair and square, so I'll repeat my question: Given Sharon's background, what does Isreal have to gain here?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: mg
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:19 PM

They do not hold all the cards. What if someone told Sharon that financial assistance was dependent on cooperation? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:41 PM

Well, mg, Bush certainly wouldn't do that. Nor would Gore. Or Clinton. Or Lieberman. Or....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 03 - 03:56 AM

"Isreal" (the ones living in our time) and "Plaestianian's" (the ones living back in the pleistocene)? Nice pun, Bobert, but not very PC!

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 03 - 04:03 AM

Come on Bobert - you are the person on another thread who is stating that the solution is so simple. In a posting of yours on that thread you end by saying:

"But you and Bush and Sharon can keep it as complicated as you folks think is necessary to maintain the status quo..."

There is only one person who wishes to maintain the status quo in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as far as I can see it - Yasser Arafat - without the conflict he is nothing - without the conflict his main stream of revenue is cut off, he is currently amassing a huge personal fortune by manipulating the suffering of the people he is supposed to represent.

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:54 AM

Sometimes the previous "bad guys" do the right thing in the end. Remember South Africa.

There's always got to be hope.

Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 03 - 06:16 AM

Of course there's hope, there's always hope. But expectation, that is a very different thing.

It is prety clear that there is no sincere committment to an end to the illegal settlements from Sharon when he has just gone on record as advising the settlers to keep on building for their great-grandchildren.

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 May 03 - 06:32 AM

McGrath - I know, I was trying to cheer myself up with a bit of unfounded optimism.

Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 03 - 07:50 AM

MGOH,

Where and when today (28th May, 2003) did Sharon go on record advising the settlers to keep building?

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 May 03 - 08:00 AM

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/05/27/sharon030527

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 03 - 08:41 AM

Guest Peace, didn't find anything specific on the link you posted, only a single sentence saying that he gave encouragement to Settlers. On another American News site I got the text of both the question and the answer given by Ariel Sharon:

"Settler and Likud lawmaker Yezhiel Hazan asked the prime minister: "I want to know whether I can stay in my home; will my children and I continue to bleed?"

Sharon replied: "It will definitely be possible, and there is no restriction here. You can build for your children and grandchildren, and I hope even for your great-grandchildren."

I find it interesting that Sharon used the word "here" in his reply - what exactly does he mean by it?

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 May 03 - 08:59 AM

I'm not sure exactly what he meant by the word "here", but since the man is described as a settler, it seems reasonable to conclude that he (Sharon)is still envisioning further expansion of settlements in the occupied territories for many, many years to come.

It seems to me that Sharon is just playing the politicians game now. He knows that with the new pressure the US is placing on him to co-operate with peace plans, he needs to be seen to be at least willing to engage with the processes. On the other hand he has no intention of freezing the settlements and abiding by other areas of the road map and he needs to give that message to certain people in his country too. I think he feels that it is fine to be seen to engage with the road map, and that will be enough, as he will put obstacles in the way of the implementation that he can then blame the palestinians for. And its all back to the status quo.

Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 28 May 03 - 09:30 AM

Perhaps this 75-year-old warrior has taken a realistic look at his nation's future and understood that Israel must not rule over another people. -New York Times editorial (May 28, 2003)

I think the editorial about Ariel Sharon and the peace process in today's New York Times has a much deeper analysis than anything I've read by the chorus of McGrath of Harlow, Bobert, Peace or CarolC. You can read it by clicking here.

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 May 03 - 09:43 AM

"Perhaps" - I hope so.

But perhaps not - I fear so.

Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 28 May 03 - 09:52 AM

Just a show, or the real thing? From Ha'aretz

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:03 AM

Another interesting article from the above source:

`U.S. told us to ignore Israeli map reservations'

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:08 AM

Thanks, Bagpuss. Good link.

If Sharon is ready for a U-turn, he'd use words appeasing the settlers until the last moment. Why invite (more or less) violent opposition in this moment when he doesn't even know how many of the settlements have to be given up.

On the other hand, if he isn't ready for a U-turn, he'd use words appeasing the settlers as well.

So, I don't take these words in an interview as any indication at all about his plans.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 03 - 07:27 AM

Abbas hopeful of Hamas ceasefire agreement (The Guardian)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Bobert
Date: 29 May 03 - 09:18 AM

I'm with you GUEST, Peace, I fear not.

Just as we have a President who will say anything that he thinks folks wanta hear, I fear Sharon is following the same course. Like what else can he say?

As fir support of the settlements, T, I believe that you are being terribly niave if you think there isn't at the very least tacit support from the Sharon government. It ain't like the Isreali military is driving tanks into the houses of the settlers? I can't believe that you make this arguement or that you possibly believe it.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 03 - 06:50 AM

Bobert,

I think the Ha'aretz link supplied by Bagpuss above reflects the situation with regard to what was said, and why, in Sharon's "occupation speech". It also helps to keep in mind that my original question and subsequent comment arose from what was said in that speech and in that speech alone.

The link regarding reservations supplied by Guest 28.05.03 - 10:03AM above is also well worth the read.

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 30 May 03 - 06:56 AM

T - that guest was me too, I forgot to type my name in (I keep losing my cookie and can't be bothered logging back in all the time).

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:01 AM

Interesting link, GUEST,New York City. I think this part pretty much says it all:

"Mr. Sharon has not abandoned his support for the scores of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. He seems to think that most of them could continue to exist on land that Israel would keep and that would not be part of any future Palestinian state. Yesterday, Mr. Sharon pulled back on the advice of his attorney general, who said the legal term from Israel's perspective was "disputed" rather than "occupied" territories. Mr. Sharon is also a clever politician. He knows that by edging to the center, he can portray himself as besieged from the right and unable to yield all that the Americans may ask of him."

Great links, Bagpuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:25 PM

The isolated paragraph quoted by CarolC does not, as she says, say it all.

Read the whole article to get the whole picture. A couple of relevant excerpts include:

"You may not like the word, but what's happening is occupation," he told Likud members of Parliament in a heated two-hour session. "Holding 3.5 million Palestinians is a bad thing for Israel, for the Palestinians and for the Israeli economy."

Nonetheless, Mr. Sharon said what needed to be said, succinctly and clearly, and by doing so, he shifted public debate in Israel. No Israeli has spent more time on the battlefield or developed a more deserved reputation for hard-nosed patriotism than Mr. Sharon. When he told his party members that he knew every stone in the West Bank, he was hardly exaggerating. Anyone who has spent time with the prime minister knows him as someone who has a profound attachment to the biblical lands of what he calls Judea and Samaria. Giving them up — or a large chunk of them — in the name of security for Israel will not be easy for him. Perhaps this 75-year-old warrior has taken a realistic look at his nation's future and understood that Israel must not rule over another people.

There seems to be good will on both sides as Sharon met with Abbas yesterday in advance of the session with Bush next week. You can read the JTA story about the meeting by clicking here.

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:27 PM

Sorry, my last paragraph above should not have been in italics.

***
There seems to be good will on both sides as Sharon met with Abbas in advance of the session with Bush next week. You can read the JTA story about the meeting by clicking here.

Subject: RE: BS: Roadmap to peace
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:35 PM

Matter of opinion, GUEST,New York City, which I remembered to acknowlege in my post when I said, "I think this part pretty much says it all", and just as it is your opinion that it does not say it all.