ETHNO ENGLAND 2004

Subject: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Sam Pirt
Date: 31 May 03 - 03:55 AM

To all folk musicians and singers
aged 15 to 25

You are all welcome to come to ETHNO ENGLAND

Are YOU a skilled folk musician between 15 and 25 years of age?

Would YOU like to meet folk musicians from other countries and learn their music?

Would YOU like to teach them YOUR own music, songs and dances?

Would you like to make new friends and have an unforgettable week in England?


Then come to Ethno England where you will be most welcome!


When
June 11th to June 18th in Beverley, East Yorkshire, England

Be Part of the First ETHNO ENGLAND
Ethno England is a meeting place for folk musicians from all over the world. This will be a very special Ethno England as it is the FIRST EVER ETHNO ENGLAND!!

What is Ethno England?
At Ethno England you will teach your own music, songs and dances to the other participants. You may hear music you have never heard before on instruments you never knew existed!! The teaching and learning will be mainly done by ear. All instrumentalists are welcome as well as singers.

Where?
Beverley is an attractive old market town in East Yorkshire,that is famous not only for its folk festival but also its Minster. Beverley is situated on the outskirts of the city of Kingston Upon Hull.

Program
The program for the week consists of a series of workshops, social events, excursions and some concerts in which all the participants will perform together.

The Beverley and East Riding Folk Festival
The final event is a concert at the famous Beverley and East Riding Folk Festival, one of the best known Folk Festivals in England. It also has a number of music and dance workshops throughout the festival.

Participation Fee
£85 to all International participants
£150 to British Isles participants (excluding Eire)
(The fee includes lodging, excursions and all meals during ETHNO ENGLAND)

YOU MUST ALSO PAY AND ORGANIZE YOUR TRAVEL TO ENGLAND (Transport can be provided from Hull Central Station, Beverley Train Station and Humberside Airport)

More Information?, Questions? Want an application form?
Write to : Sam Pirt, ETHNO ENGLAND Director, 97 Hook Road, Goole, East Yorkshire, DN14 5JR, England
E-mail – [e-mail]

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Noreen
Date: 31 May 03 - 10:10 AM

Sounds wonderful, Sam. Look forward to the concert!!

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 03 - 11:08 AM

"You are all welcome" - but "Are YOU a skilled folk musician between 15 and 25 years of age?"

Which is it? Maybe Sam could expand on this and clarify it after the impending ten day Mudcat Wakes-week-and-a-bit.

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 May 03 - 11:16 AM

And what happens if an 'Old Timer' turns up?? I can only just remember being twenty five.

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 May 03 - 11:47 AM

Sam, I understand where you are coming from, and have too much respect for you and yours to get too grumpy about this. Though I confess it stings a bit that I am to be excluded simply on the basis of age (I am 50). Still, I am a proponent of doing whatever it takes to bring young people to folk, so my absence will be a price worth paying in order to achieve it. But may I suggest you reconsider two other elements in your invitation:

a) the emphasis on "skilled", especially as you use no basis for judgment (degree from a respected music conservatory, for example). I know, I am a bit extreme, but who will judge in advance whether someone is sufficiently skilled to attend? Nobody can, of course. Put yourself in your invitees shoes: How will they feel? Will some be too shy to risk being laughed at for being unskilled? Will some baulk at the elitism of the message and say "sod it"?
[This is not an idle comment. My daughter Aliki, who is 18 and sings and plays both Greek and English songs, has just considered your invitation and dropped it on both of the last two counts]

b) The price differential for British Isles participants. First - how will you check? Will a foreign-sounding name be enough? Age apart, I'd be in at the cheap price then given my surname, although I live in the UK (and I can easily provide a foreign address for correspondence, if that's all it takes). And is such a differential (almost double the cost) fiar, or will it be prohibitive? I know you are trying to attract participants from across the water, but while you incentivise some, you could be disadvantaging or putting off those near you. There certainly is no real basis for the price difference - UK based people will not cost you more to admit, after all. Perhaps some other way can be found to provide incentives for those from further afield?

But I honestly do not want to rain on your parade. What you are trying to do IS GOOD, and I wish you and hope for every success in the venture. It's a good basis; just a couple of rough edges that might welcome some smoothing...

Good luck

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Sam Pirt
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 01:46 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 06:02 PM

er -I think Sam is merely emulating a tried and tested formula that currently exists in other countries particularly Scandinavia, as opposed to creating his own invention and set of criteria.

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 12:08 PM

I confess I don't know the Scandinavian folk scene, so I don't know if they also charge locals almost double the international rate for admission at their festivals. But even if they do, it feels wrong.

Example: The £150 UK admission proposed here is more than £50 higher than that of the biggest UK music festival (Reading), where this year people can listen to some of the best in contemporary music like Metallica (and don't sneer at the name before listening to some of their ballads, they will surprise you), Blur, Staind, Linkin Park and Placebo. OK, it's not folk - but it is live music and it is fun. And lots of kids (my daughter included) are taking instruments along and they will have sessions together. So the participatory element is there too.

So when my daughter decided to plumb her savings into the Reading event instead of ETHNO 2003, it may have been a little disappointing for me, but I can see her point. And if she, with folkies for parents, decided to go that way, how about others? And who will be the poorer? Folk music, surely.

The formula may be tried and tested in Scandinavia, but is the pricing approach tested equally well? Because it looks like it did not work in the case of my daughter.

I stress again that I am not driven by some "sour grapes" feeling (just because I am an old fuddy-daddy, over the hill and so on; I am, but that wasn't the reason;-)). I do want the initiative to succeed, and that's why I am getting finicky about the pricing.

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 05:22 PM

George I know it is not sour grapes chuck! The travel costs have to be taken into account -if you are travelling from abroad your costs will be higher - and therefore you are not disadvantaging musicians from abroad by charging them the same cost as local musicians where travel costs may be arguably cheaper. I think the Ethno fest thing and I am not an expert- is different from a festival and you cannot make an exact comparison of costs.- I would imagine it to be more like folkworks - but Sam would need to confirm this Linda XX

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 05:31 PM

OK, fair dos Linda, no more griping.
Except...no, no, no more griping (tease). Soapbox dismantled.
Good luck and success, Sam! And it would be nice to have a report on the event afterwards.

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Les from Hull
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 05:33 PM

Did people not see that the fee includes lodging meals and excursions? £150 sounds reasonably good value for a week, and if UK participants help subsidise overseas visitors travelling costs that seems fine too. I'm sure that participants staying on for the Beverley and East Riding Folk Festival will enhance the sessions and other events. Looking forward to the concert Sam!

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 10:21 PM

I can't see any economic justification for charging someone living in Northern Ireland nearly twice the fee payable by someone living maybe only a few yards away in the Republic. Although the theory may be sound (if not examined too closely), the practice appears to be seriously discriminatory. A system of bursaries, although harder to administer, would be rather more fair; particularly as incomes are lower in the UK than in most other European countries, not to mention the USA and Canada. Was this system wished upon you by a grant-awarding authority?

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 04:17 PM

only Sam can answer that Malcolm. I agree with Les for lodgings etc the cost seems reasonable either way

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 04:32 PM

I would that thought that differential pricing for different parts of the EU was contrary to the Single Market regulations.

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 06:09 AM

This kind of Ageism is not acceptable.
PP

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 06:47 AM

Is,the,accomadation,compulsory?
I,know,there,are,a few,local,young,folkies,that,might,be,interested,in,this
Such,as,Hannah,Sweetfire,etc.It,seems,silly,them,staying,there,if,they,only,live,down,the,road.

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Fay
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 07:39 AM

Great initiative Sam, good luck with it all - don't worry about the nitpicking, it will get far worse than this!...and can I personally add how pleased I am that it is being led by someone not in the folkworks mafia and not being held in Newcastle!!!

Up Yorkshire!

Love Fay xx

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 11:22 AM

John you appear to have had an attack of the comers.
PP

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: GUEST,JeZeBeL
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 03:25 PM

I don't think it is a bad price at all.

Take a look at Folkworks Summer School for example... how much is that this year? It must be over £200 and for the same type of thing, although I belive this will be much better as it isn't run by Folkworks, and it is going to be people of the same age range teaching each other the most amazing music from all around the world.

I don't think you can argue with £150 for all that plus lodgings excursions etc....

Sam can I have an application form?

Can we just come to learn or is teaching others compulsory too?

Emma

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 07:12 AM

REFRESH

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 03:53 PM

Fay wrote:
don't worry about the nitpicking

I would like to stress that my comment was NOT nitpicking, it was a serious concern that the pricing arrangements may be unlawful.

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 06:09 PM

i,was,not,picking,nits,as,well,i,was,just,asking,about,beberley,people

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 07:35 PM

Given the cost of travel having a price differential seems a fair enough idea, though inevitably rough and ready. I'd have thought that making it based on whether people have had to travel from overseas might be a better basis, which would get rid of the differential rate for people on the two sides of the Border in Ireland.

And I suppose having a youth only policy makes some kind of sense, though if I was on an organising committee for something like this I'd be opposed, asd I would undoubtedly have done in the far-off days when I was under 25. I've alway believed that one of the key thgings about folk music is that it is at heart resistant to ageism.

But even so, 25 seems too low a cut off point - why not 30? And I suspect that "Are YOU a skilled folk musician?" might put off some fine people.

But good luck with it anyway.

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 02:13 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: ETHNO ENGLAND 2004
From: GUEST,Hannah
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 07:25 PM

The Ethno England website is now up and running - click on the Ethno link on the Beverley & East Riding Folk Festival website for more information.

Hannah