Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now

Subject: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 04:47 AM

Another piece of shameless Mudcat self-promotion coming up! My book on Irish songs has just been published. It's called "One Green Hill: journeys through Irish songs". Details and blurb available at www.btpale.com then "new books".                                                            

The launch was in the An Culturlaan Irish Centre in the Falls Road in Belfast last Friday (30 May). I'm happy, and very relieved, that John Moulden, who had an advance copy, made some complimentary remarks (and only one major disagreement of fact). That great Belfast soul singer Brian Moore was also there and sang some of the songs from the book, including, "The Man From God Knows Where", "Henry Joy" and "Dolly's Brae". Get your copy while stocks last!

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 05:57 AM

Blicky

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 08:54 AM

Great news, Tim. Thanks for letting us know.

Alice Flynn

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 02:59 AM

Thanks folks. Early days so far but early reviews encouraging. "Derry Journal" - "as entertaining as it is scholarly". "Donegal Democrat" -"a fantastic new publication...achieves the difficult task of combining erudite scholarship and great entertainment". Well, that's a bit strong, but hits on precisely what I was aiming for: a good read, but as accurate as possible and as unbiased as I could make it.

I'll be reading excerpts at the West Belfast Festival on 3 August: can any of you guys make it? All the best, BT.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 03:09 AM

Good luck with it - I look forward to the read!

Regards

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 04:36 AM

Sorry I couldn't make it to the launch Big T, I'm sure it was a grand day. I tried to order the book last week from Borders Books but their system didn't recognise the ISBN. If anyone has similar problems, I e-mailed btpale.com and they tell me I can get it direct from them.

wr

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,John Moulden - again Cookieless
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 07:47 AM

I've been waiting for the Mudcat to return precisely because I wanted to post a complimentary notice about "One Green Hill."

It was a pleasure to go to the launch and meet Big Tim and talk to him about the book and its construction. He is very modest about his accomplishment - he lives in Scotland and his research had to be done by driving furiously from one place to another while having "holidays" in Ireland. As it is, except for one place - the one he mentioned - his research has been exemplary. The book is also highly readable - much more so than anything I would have written; I would have been plumbing the historical depths. The one place where he made errors of fact - in the Dolly's Brae Story - the evidence is that there were far fewer Catholics killed than is usually said (but in much more disgraceful circumstances)and several Orangemen were wounded and one later died. Big Tim's error is only the one that everybody who has ever written about the incident has made; he, not being able (as I was) to go to original material) - was misled.

Well done John (Big Tim

JOhn Moulden

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 08:45 AM

John

Can I take it you'll have copies in Miltown?

Regards

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 09:08 AM

I don't hink I'll be in Miltown but I will have copies.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Áine
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 09:42 AM

Maith thú, Big Tim!

I'll definitely be getting a copy -- and with recommendations from the likes of John Moulden and Martin Ryan, I know you've done an excellent job.

All the best, Áine

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 03:14 AM

JM - you're too kind, now people will be expecting too much! - BUT can I use your comments for advertising and publicity!

wr - the book hasn't yet spread beyond Ireland's shores, or yet entered the national bibliographical system - hence Borders not being able to trace the ISBN. Buy it online and save yourself £3. As it happens, I was in Borders in Glasgow yesterday and left a copy with the Manager. She seemed very interested and spoke of a possible "event" - a reading and signing. We'll see...If it happens you must drive along the M8...we might be looking for a singer/guitarist!

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 08:11 AM

Two copies ordered, on the strength of John's assessment! (Along with two other books from that site.)

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 07:29 PM

Last post was from me - I've just done a purge of cookies and ditched one too many.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,Seamus Brogan
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 09:49 AM

Can't wait to get my hands on a copy. Well done to Big Tim and thanks to John Moulden.
Seamus

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 12:05 PM

Thanks again guys, I just hope you're not disappointed after all this hype. There's nothing political re the title "One Green Hill", it's just a translation of "Crockglass", the townland in Donegal where I was born and spent my formative years.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 09:11 PM

Big Tim: "One Green Hill" a translation of "Crockglass" ? That means it varies from the Welsh, where 'Glas' is 'blue', not green.
'Craiglas' would be 'blue stone', or 'blue hill' though.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 09:31 PM

Gaelic is a bit different; glas is grey or pale, occasionally azure; but also green (particularly where applied to vegetation, hills and the like). It is the second part of my own name.

Oh dear; another book I am going to have to buy!

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:52 AM

"One Blue Hill" - no way! Growing up there we were taught that it meant "green hill", so even if it doesn't, that's what it will always signify for me.

The title was also inspired by the Oysterband song "One Green Hill" -

"There's nothing for your comfort in the place where I was born,
someone's got the roses, cause my people got the thorns,
my people are the poor ones, their country made of stones,
their wealth is in persistence, in stories and in bones

And one green hill, one green hill,
one far green hill we carry everywhere..."

Thank you Johnny Jones.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: belfast
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 07:20 AM

This is an absolutely wonderful book and no one will be disappointed with it. For those with any interest at all in the songs and music of these islands it is a "must have". Previous postings have already made clear what a well-researched piece of work we have here but seldom has good research being presented in such a readable form for it is a very readable and entertaining piece of work   As well as all that knowledgeable stuff about the origins and history of the songs there are little bits, such as a brief description of his visit to the Orange museum in Loughall or the final couple of pages where he describes the monument to Ferghal O'Hanlon and Sean South, which are a pleasure to read.

And mention should be given to "Beyond the Pale" not just for publishing the work but also for making such a good-looking book. A great production all round.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Alice
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 08:11 AM

Any chance we can get autographed copies from you?

Thanks.

Alice

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 06:02 AM

Thanks belfast, I really appreciate that.

Alice, a signed copy is in mid-air to you in Montana at this very minute!

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 01:10 PM

Dear other "Big", ........ hahahahahaha

I have been unavailable for a bit, but coming back to this wonderful news has made my day. I will soon be ordering a copy and I hope you will sign it for me, as well. I have always enjoyed your posts here. I am very excited to get a chance to read it.

Congratulations, sir.

Mick

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: widowmaker
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:48 PM

At last Big tim, I,m so glad that your hard work and endevour have paid off you will have to let me know where in Scotland you are as I am up there quite a lot and in fact have just returned from honeymoon up there. We might see you at my local festival on 3/08/03. If my bosses in Yorkshire let me go. Slan

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 07:44 PM

G'day BT,

My copy winged its way to Australia ... and landed on my doorstep last night. I haven't read as far as I would like to have ... I was up to my elbows in photographs and scans from this last weekend's 8th Australian Folk & Dance Gathering at Albion Park. (It was "Queen's Birthday" public holiday on Monday ... I can't remember which Queen's actual birthday ... maybe George V's Mary ... certainly not Elizabeth's ... and not Victoria's 24 May - but we Australians never query a public holiday!)

The book looks great. Everything else that I have on the songs of Ireland's politics has its feet firmly planted in one camp ... usually the Republican ... and the fine sense of balance of your book is a welcome fresh breeze to clear the fog ... and smokescreens!

Now I need to start looking more closely at the tunes to the Northern/Protestant songs that I don't know so well. The tunes of Southern/Catholic persuasion are often consulted in sourcing Australian folk songs, but I fear the other side has not received its due consideration.

I must post to this thread a song by local singer/songwriter/stirrer John Dengate (which I published in his first book My Shout, Bush Music Club, Sydney, 1982), that starts with the question:

"Who gave Australia the songs to sing,
The tunes to songs so grand ...?"

and has already answered itself in the song's title: The Answer's Ireland. It certainly celebrates the Irish contribution to Australian song ... even if it may be a little one-eyed about which side! (The tune John used is Roddy McCorley.)

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: Add Lyr: to Big Tim's Book thread
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 07:04 AM

G'day again Big Tim,

I did promise to post John Dengate's song praising the effect of those Irish songs upon the Australian tradition. I must admit that I forgot that he had published it before his book My Shout! in the Bush Music Club's Singabout magazine in 1966, to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the uprising. I will send you directly scans of both versions, but here is a posting for the Mudcat (and, perhaps ... one day ... DigiTrad!).

I have added some notes to explain a few of the local references.

Enjoy!

Bob Bolton

The Answer's Ireland
Words: John Dengate                               Tune: Roddy McCorley

Who gave Australia the tunes to sing, the tunes of songs so grand,
Songs to inspire, full of fight, full of fire? The answer's Ireland.
Know when you sing of Jack Donahoe that he was a Dublin man,
And Denis O'Reilly is travelling still with a blackthorn in his hand.

Who raised a ruckus at Castle Hill, who there defied the Crown?
'Twas the same rebel boys who in 98 'gainst odds would not lie down.
Oh but they made Samuel Marsden fret and ruffled the silvertails.
The words 'croppy pike' were enough to strike fear into New South Wales.

Who agitated at Ballarat for Joe Latrobe's death knell?
Who was it raised the five starred flag and damned the traps to hell?
Who was it gathered beneath that flag where solemn oaths were sworn?
Who wouldn't run from the red coats' gun upon Eureka morn?

Ned Kelly's dad was an Irish lad; the Kellys all died game.
Brave Michael Dwyer's bones are buried here, we'll not forget his name.
Who could resist Larry Foley's fist? and Foley wore the green,
And who led the anti conscription ranks in nineteen seventeen?

Repeat first verse.
From Singabout – Journal of Australian Folksong, Bush Music Club, vol. 6, no. 1,1966.

Some Notes
Jack Donahoe:
Irish born 'bushranger' (escaped convict, living by highway robbery), John Donahoe, 1806 – 1830. Sentenced to transportation for life, Dublin, April 1824, for "Intent to commit a felony". Escaped 1828.
Denis O'Reilly:
The Irish 'hero' of the song With My Swag All On My Shoulder, tramping the bush of Australia "with a blackthorn in (his) hand".
Castle Hill:
Also known as "Vinegar Hill" – the scene, near Parramatta of the suppression of a convict uprising, in 1804.
Samuel Marsden:
Anglican clergyman, magistrate and landowner, 1765 – 1838. Conservative, anti-Catholic and a brutal sentencer.
Silvertails:
Well-off English-born free settlers (Local-born were depicted as 'bronzewings' … both breeds of pigeon.)
Joe Latrobe:
Charles Joseph Latrobe, 1801 – 75, Lieutenant Governor of Victoria 1851-54 … the goldrush era, when his license fees help spark the (gold) diggers' revolt at Eureka Lead, 1854.
The miners were led by Irishman Peter Lalor (1827-89) … but his deputy was Raffaello Carboni, previously in Garibaldi's ranks!
Five-starred flag:
The Eureka rebels' flag depicting the constellation known as The Southern Cross.
Ned Kelly's Dad:
John "Red" Kelly, 1820-66, was transported from Ireland for seven years for an agrarian offence (theft of 2 pigs?).
Brave Michael Dwyer:
Irish insurgent, 1770-1825. Banished to New South Wales in 1805, but not tried. Later became Chief Constable of Liverpool (NSW) and a publican! Now buried at Waverley Cemetery under an impressive monument.
Larry Foley:
Australian champion boxer, 1847 - 1917
Anti-conscription ranks:
The 1916 referendum to impose conscription for WW 1 was defeated … perhaps on Irish sentiment, post Easter 1916 rebellion.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Dita
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 02:56 PM

Well done Big Tim/John. It looks great. I was just reaching for my credit card when I saw your post about a signing/reading in Borders Glasgow. I'll be there. Just let me know when.
With respect, Dita/(John McCreadie)

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 03:13 PM

Thanks Bob, that's an excellent, and, I think, a very accurate song!

At the risk of embarrassing Bob, very small risk, the guy is Croc Dundee tough, I must tell Mudcatters this one.

I appealed a while back on Mudcat for some son, or daughter, of Oz to get me a picture of the grave of John Goulding, a transported Fenian in 1867, one of the "Fenians of Cahersiveen". BB drove 100 hundred miles from his home to Gerringong in NSW, took the pic, sent it to me, and it's now in the book! A significant contribution, as it illustrates well just what sacrifices those guys made for their cause in those days. Surely an example of Mudcat at it's very finest. Thanks mate.

Re you're first post Bob, about "balance". I was very happy to learn the other day that "One Green Hill" was the subject of a feature in the "Belfast Telegraph", the biggest circulation newspaper in Northern Ireland, and one of essentially unionist ethos. My book is nationalist in spirit but, respectful of the unionist tradition as equally valid. The "Belfast Telegraph" feature proves that the book will appeal to reasonable people in both rival camps. If there is a message in the book at all, that is it: mutual tolerance and respect.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 03:33 PM

Dita/John - "I'm glad to hear you're still alive, your're looking like a saint" (Dylan).

The Borders thing is not arranged yet but I'll keep you posted. If you remember, I deserted White Street a while back.

I still owe you one, a major one: so if you PM me an address I'll send you a free, signed copy. NO FURTHER IRISH, OR IRISH AMERICANS, NEED APPLY!

My "wee Proddie pal", Alec Gormlie, has a copy, so there's at least one "One Green Hill" doing the rounds of the Partick pubs!

John

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Jun 03 - 01:13 PM

Credit to Big Tim for producing the BEST book on folk songs I have read.
I have a large number of various books on Folk music but this is far and away the most ineresting I have read.
Brilliantly researched there is no stone left unturned in the quest for the origins and history of each song.
I got the book yesterday morning and never left it down until I finished it last night

But please Tim return Derrytrasna and Derryadd to Armagh, after all we are the smallest County in the north, a minor quibble, but once again a marvellous read and I am sure more to follow. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Jun 03 - 04:33 PM

Ard: you old rascal - thanks. But really you must learn not to exaggerate!

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Jun 03 - 01:16 PM

This is also the opinion of an old friend of mine, who, after reading my copy is also purchasing another to add to his large collection.   Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Jun 03 - 01:28 PM

Ard, what are you complaining about? You've already been assigned Moira, at least according to the Post Office.

My copy of Big Tim/John's book arrived a few days a ago and I'm glad to endorse everything that belfast said. Well done to Beyond the Pale for producing it, but particular credit to the author. It's seldom you find such appreciation for the folklore of both traditions in one person.

My one quibble, and only a minor one, is that here and there the typesetting and proofing is a bit wayward, though I wouldn't have noticed if such things weren't part of my own job. Anyway, Beyond the Pale is quite a discovery for me. I also ordered, and have received, Ardoyne: the Untold Truth, which looks like a comprehensive exercise to document eye-witness accounts of that north Belfast community's troubled recent history.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 12:37 PM

I would certainly complain if Moira was included in our wee County, Moira is still in County Down no matter what the Post Office says and long may it remain. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 02:23 PM

Ard, sorry about Derryadd and Derrytransa, imagine moving them north rather than south! A few other gremlins crept in as Fionn has said: the worst being spelling Thomas Davis as "Davies". How it happened we don't know, but we were all horrified when we saw it in print; too late too late...

There's also a factual error, on page 99 in "Roddy McCorley". I'm sure only one person would have noticed, and she would be someone to whom I sent a copy! She is Helen Meehan, who has done much research on "Ethna Carbery". The error is that the name of Seumas MacManus's second wife, after the death of Carbery, was Catalina Veronica Paez, NOT Margaret McCollin, as stated in the book. This is my error, and mine only. I had the correct info but copied it wrongly. The "Derry Journal" of 13 July 1911 reported,

"An interesting and pretty Irish-American wedding took place recently at the Holy Name Church, New York, when Mr. Seumas MacManus, the well known Irish litterateur and lecturer, was joined in matrimony with Miss Catalina Veronica Paez, daughter of General Ramon Paez, and grandaughter of President Jose Paez of Venezula...". The couple were to have two children.

Even Helen couldn't trace a cause of death for Carbery. However, I haven't given up on that one yet!

There's a special prize for anyone who can find the Bob Dylan quote!I'm confident that nobody will, not even Little Hawk, probably not even Dylan himself.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 02:44 PM

Hi Big Tim,
I've just ordered your book via Amazon and it should take about a month. Good things are worth waiting for.
PS I'm getting over my Guillian Barre pretty well.
Slainte,
jim

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 05:01 AM

My copy should arrive soon. I'm looking forward to open it. I'm sure it deserves all the praise it has got so far.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 07:13 AM

Big Tim, Your book is getting rave notices from a few oul codgers, cynics to the back-bone, but they have been high in their praise of your book.
Forget about about the the wee bit of nit-picking, you have created a gem. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 07:46 AM

Just got (a present of) a copy and for now just enjoying the feel and the look of it! A fine pioece of work.

Regards

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 12:42 PM

I am fast into the reading of this book, and I must tell you that if it continues as it has begun, this is going to be a favorite of mine for years. I'm with Ard on this one. Don't worry about the few nits that get picked. It appears that you have done us all a great service with this one. Irish Americans especially need to read this one.

Full review later,

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Dita
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 09:28 AM

Big Tim/John has produced an absolute darlin' o' a book.
For me it joins up so many dots in my understanding of the web of Irish history, much of that understanding gleaned from songs.
I echo the "best" tag from other posts, not the best song book I own, but by far the best book about song I have ever read. That includes LLoyd, McColl and the rest.
I have made a space with pride for it, on my shelf beside "Songs of the People." This is a "must have" folks.

May your god go wi' ye, Big Tim/John

Proud to know you,

Dita/John

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: weerover
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 10:45 AM

If anyone was experiencing the same difficulty as I was in buying John's book online, the technical difficulties now appear to have been resolved and mine is on its way. Yes, go on - save the 3 quid.

I have the advantage of having had an advance peek at one chapter and can attest that it's a very thorough piece of work.

wr

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: belfast
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 06:55 AM

From earlier posts:
"I'm glad to hear you're still alive, your're looking like a saint" (Dylan).
"There's a special prize for anyone who can find the Bob Dylan quote!"

Lily, Roesmary and the Jack of Hearts?

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 09:40 AM

No belfast, it's not that easy! I meant in the book and the reason nobody is likely to get it is that it's not from one of Dylan's songs. It's something he said in an interview about 30 years ago, which stuck in my mind and came back to me when I was visiting the Drumboe Martyrs site, "no death ever stopped the world", on page 212.

It's strange because in the final edit I decided to delete the phrase but my editor must have liked it, or missed my change, and in it went. I'm glad about that now tho I just hope Dylan doesn't sue!

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: belfast
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 10:30 AM

Ah well, I never claimed, not wanted, to be a Dylanologist and I suspected it wouldn't be that easy.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 11:54 AM

Well, John... er, Big Tim! Congratulations and wish you luck with the book. Do you know whether John Moulden has a stock?

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 01:56 PM

Dan

John mentioned earlier in the thread that he would have stock.

While you're there.... someone recently asked me for a copy of your Bonny Bunch of Roses book. Has John got copies - or can you get oone to me at some stage - no rush!

Regards

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 03:21 PM

Big Tim, I saw in the thread somewhere that you sent a signed copy to someone. Maybe you'd do the same for my daughter? If you PM me your address, I'll send a cheque.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 03:01 PM

Hi Martin! Good to hear from you. Hope all is well in Athlone and Galway. Don't want to hijack Big Tim's thread so let me just say that Ulstersongs does have a few copies. Thanks for the interest.
All the best to Josephine and her brave general. Maybe see you in September. Dan

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 03:33 PM

First "GUEST": I can't send a PM to a guest.

If you want, get in touch with the publishers, tell them what you want, get them to send it to me (they're in Ireland, I'm in Scotland), I'll happily sign it and send it on to you. That's about the best I can do.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,Seamus Brogan
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 04:04 PM

Received my copy from Amazon last week and it's everything I was hoping it would be after reading John Mouldens review. No Irish home should be without a copy. Great work.
Thanks again
Seamus Brogan

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:29 AM

My copy came through today and I entirely agree with all the positives: a well-produced and thoroughly researched work which will grace the collection of anyone interested in Irish songs and/or history. Just have to work out a cunning plan now to get it signed.

wr

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 08:38 PM

Big Tim, "First Guest" was me, no less, having failed to notice that my cookie had again failed to kick in. I've already got a copy for myself of course, and another for a friend who will appreciate it, but I intend my daughter's to take its place in her growing collection of autographed copies. I'll follow the advice in your post, and in due course you'll be right up there beside PJ Curtis and the like.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:17 PM

I have just received my copy of this book; it's a gem !

I'll be back in touch once I have read it and had a wee sing too.

Looks great !

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:54 PM

John (Big Tim),

I am now into my second reading of this marvelous work. I promised a review and here it is.

First, let me commend your research. Your approach to each song is wonderful. You begin by talking about the specifics of the song, then you move to the general conditions that spawned the various incidents depicted. You state that this is book about these songs, but it really is a wonderful primer of the history of the land that spawned my Grandparents. One walks away with a full understanding of the glories and tragedies of Ireland and its people. This approach appealled to me on a number of levels. I came away with a new understanding of the politics of the times. I came away with new understanding of what life was like at various times for the various factions and peoples. And most importantly, I came away with a renewed affirmation of a very important personal belief of my own. I have written in other places on this forum of my revulsion for allowing anyone to demonize whole groups of people. When we permit others to dehumanize others, it makes justification for inhumanity seem reasonable. As I read, I was struck by your unbiased approach to how the various factions played "the Orange card" or "the Patriot game" to benefit the end they sought to achieve. The end result was a marvelous clarity on all the complexities that go into producing human conflict. Having said that, you gave due reverence to the beauty and the message of the songs profiled. In the end, one comes away full of knowledge, and loving this music all the more. You should be very proud of your achievements to this end, sir.

A word to my Irish American friends. Please purchase and read this book. Then re-read it several times. Pay attention to the conditions that spawned the songs that we sing so often, without thought of why they appeared. And do so fearlessly. You need not worry that somehow everything you thought to be truth is not necessarily so. Having read this book, I have not shifted from my beliefs that Ireland should be undivided. But what I have come away with is a much better understanding of the truth of history. I understand that the peoples of the North and the South, the Orange and the Green, the Republican, Nationalist, and Loyalist, all have much more in common than not. The peace they seek is tied to that commonality. And most importantly, I will be able to sing these songs, and interpret them from a position of understanding.

Well done, John. This is a must read for anyone who has more than a passing interest in the land of our ancestors, it's music, and its future.

All the very best,

The other "Big" guy,

Mick Lane

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 06:16 AM

Thanks Mick - I greatly appreciate you comments, of course. If you don't know any of the songs in the "Discography" - list the songs that you would like a recording of and I'll send you a tape(s). OK Big Man!

If any Catters can make it to Belfast on 3 August I'll be doing some readings in the Donovan Rossa GAA place on the Falls Road (5 p.m.). The incomparable Brian Moore (and his guitar) will again be performing many of the songs. It's a long, long way from Michigan to there, but it's not that far from Ard Mhacha...

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 06:14 AM

I got my copy too, meanwhile. A book thoroughly to my taste in this great combination of history and songs.

The book ends with the "border campaign" which is probably a wise decision. But I hope in fourty years or so someone will write a sequel to this book and cover "The troubles" along songs like "Men behind the wire", "Loughgall Ambush",...

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 07:07 AM

G'day Big Tim,

I certainly found the book gripping reading. I have always kept an eye on the Irish songs that underlie a lot of Australian tradition, but your book has sent me of in all sorts of directions that haven't been suggested in books of rather more limited scope (and led to a few conversations with unsuspected Irish fellow passengers on my 'bus to work!).

I will squeeze in a review in the next issue of Mulga Wire (August 2003) with the reasoning that Australians have to understand something about the songs of all those Irish - and a broader understanding of why they ended up out here! As I usually offer my reviews to other Australian magazines, such as the new national magazine Trad&Now, I would be interested in what is the best link to suggest to anyone local to purchase from ... I presume direct to "Beyond the Pale"?

By the way ... I suspect that the song Sean South of Garryowen might be more accurate that your text ... at least, I think it more likely that RUC Sergeant Kenneth Cordner was "... raking the truck with Sten gun fire ...". It's a bit awkward deploying a Bren out of a second floor window ... but, if he was, it's likely the effect would have been far greater!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,Seamus Brogan
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 03:23 PM

I've just finished reading Big Tim's book and I only hope that he's going to pick another twenty or so Irish ballads and give them the same treatment. It was a pleasure to read from start to finish. Can't wait for the next book. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 05:02 PM

Thanks Seamus, Bob, and Wolfgang.

Yes to end with the Border Campaign (1956-62) was quite deliberate: I couldn't have faced tackling more recent events.

Re Sten/Bren: well, probably lack of technical interest there on my part. I know nothing about guns. On further checking tho: (J.Bowyer Bell's IRA history), it seems that Sean South was firing a Bren gun from the back of the lorry and that Sergeant Cordner was using a Sten. However, Tim Pat Coogan's IRA history states "a burst of Bren gun fire wounded Phil O'Donoghue [of the attacking IRA group]".

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 09:59 AM

G'day Big Tim,

Thanks for the extra information. I guess that it's details like this that emphasise to people on the other side of the world (like me) just what level of conflict was (is) happening in Ireland. I have had a bit more exposure to these weapons and I know what they were throwing at each other ... and I needed to realise that we were looking at a full military confrontation.

Anyway, back to the earlier request: Do I direct my readers to www.btpale.com (... then "new books") - or is there a better contact?

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 02:19 PM

Bob,

If it's copies of the book you're after then yes - go to the website. I was so keen to get it that I trusted my credit card details to the digital ether for the first time and was very impressed with the prompt service.

wr

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 04:16 PM

The website is ok, certainly, for individual orders. However it might be worth emailing btp to see if they will offer better terms for any kind of bulk order. Their office is run by a very nice, friendly person.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 07:30 PM

G'day again John,

I think I'll just cite the Beyond the Pale link ... I don't think there are enough serious song scholars in my Australian readership to warrant stocking copies here - but I'm certainly going to recommend the book highly! It would be great to see it appear with some local 'mainstream' distributor - and thus be read by a wider Australian public, but I don't have any clout in those quarters.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 03:48 PM

I sent a copy on to a friend as a birthday present. He is delighted and has recommemded it to other friends. Some of his comments were; "splendid ", "very informative", "beautifully presented" and "jam-packed full".

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 04:34 PM

There is another thread about Freddy Anderson, and it would appear one of his poems/songs is included in Big Tim's book. Is that right ?

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 05:01 PM

No! The song in question is "The Man From God Knows Where". Apparently Freddy Anderson liked to recite it, but he didn't write it. The author was Florence Wilson (1874-1946)of Bangor, Northern Ireland, in 1918. It was set to music by Five Hand Reel (mainly by Tom Hickland - whom I spoke with during the course of my reasearch, also Bobby Eaglesham on 3 occasions). This song is in my book. Since publication, I discovered that Brian Moore also set the poem to music. In Belfast last Sunday, I did some readings and Brian sang the songs, including "The Man From God Knows Where"!

I love this song and thought that it deserved more attention than it has had so far: that's why I included it. Seems to be working!

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: David Ingerson
Date: 08 Aug 03 - 04:25 PM

How clever I thought I was saving a few quid by having your book sent by surface mail, Big Tim. What an eejit I was! I just got it the other day and to think I was without it all those weeks. Well, I have it now and am working my way through it with great pleasure!

One thing that strikes me is that you have managed the trick of writing so ... so effortlessly (and, oh! I know how much work it takes to write "effortlessly") and so transparently that you, the author, have disappeared and only these crystalline ideas remain to unfold naturally across the pages. (Sorry about the mixed metaphor--or have you seen crystals unfolding before?)

It's a pleasure reading the work of a master craftsman! Thanks for all your hard work--and your dispassionate approach to such a touchy subject.

David

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Aug 03 - 12:04 PM

David: that's a bit strong, but thanks so much anyway.

In the first draft there was a lot of self-indulgent, personal stuff, which my brother Daniel, the real intellectual in this family, told me to cut out. Originally each chapter was 4000 words and I ruthlessly cut them back to 3000, of hard info. Then I kept reading and researching more, so each chapter crept back up to near 4000 words again: no self-indulgent, too personal stuff though.

Thanks again for you comments.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 07:19 PM

Other matters kept me from reading the book which I received several months ago, but now that I'm halfway through it I can but join in the praise above. Just my kind of book - very readable, but very informative (these two things don't go together often), and - as Bob Bolton has said - leading off in all kinds of directions besides the song histories themselves. It's a treasure trove (plus very attractively produced, despite the few glitches mentioned already), and I wish, Big Tim, you'd do the same for a handful of Scottish songs!

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 03:09 AM

Thanks Susanne. Doing Scottish songs? Easier said than done - I'll leave that one to Jim McLean!

Please feel free to use the book as you wish.

Subject: RE: Big Tim's Book on Irish Songs out now
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 07:33 PM

Hi Tim - would have contacted you sooner, but for some reason both PM and eMail addy on your card failed. Send me the correct one at lag at folk.de, please! (End of thread creep.)