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Folk Music Dying?
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Dave H Date: 18 Jun 03 - 02:12 PM What else do we know that we learned from songs? Aside from the fact that the tune is an old English drinking song, the National Anthem recounts the story of the Bombardment of Fort McHenry during the war of 1812. Is there anyone who doesn't know about the Edmund Fitzgerald? Music is a great enhancement to learning. By the way, the whole of the schoolhouse Rock series can be purchased on DVD for use in the classroom. The collectors edition, which I have, comes with a songbook and the story behind the song. You'd be surprised that not only will you remember the song but it will also stimulate your memories. Where you were when you first heard it. Who you were with. Etc. P.S. Its amazing that the people who claim to be "defending the Constitution" have forgotten the preamble, especially where it says "Promote the General Welfare and secure the blessings of Liberty, to ourselves and our posterity". But that's another thread entirely. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: pattyClink Date: 17 Jun 03 - 08:32 PM Thanks, Denise, but you still need to get a book out there for those who have a little ability but no knowledge of folk music or how to present it to kids. Hope you do, cause it sounds like you have a start already. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Pat Cooksey Date: 17 Jun 03 - 06:38 PM Never learnt a note of music in school, but happy to pass on what I have learnt since. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: denise:^) Date: 17 Jun 03 - 05:35 PM ...and, Guest Dave H., MY favorite "Schoolhouse Rock" is "The Preamble to the Constitution" ("We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, extablish justice, and ensure domestic tranquility-y-y-y...") Or maybe "A Noun's a Person, Place, or Thing" ("Mrs. Jones is a lady on Hudson Street; She sent her dog to bark at my brother and me; We gave her dog a big, fat bone, and now he barks at Mrs. Jones...") Hmmm...or, how 'bout, "I'm just a Bill, yes, I'm only a Bill, and I'm sittin' here on Capitol hill..." Yes, I'd say Schoolhouse Rock taught me a thing or two...and now I'll probably be singing them to myself all night... Not "folk music" to begin with, but, from the amount of folks who can sing them now, they may have joined the ranks! Denise:^) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: denise:^) Date: 17 Jun 03 - 05:26 PM Well, this whole "folk music's dying; no one teaches it in school" thing... It's probably a lot like Jay Leno's "Jaywalking" segment on the "Tonight Show." **For those unfamiliar--they walk around with their camera, asking simple questions about current events, history, art, or whatever, and then show these complete idiots, who claim to be college students, doctors, teachers, or whatever, and give the stupidest answers imaginable. It's oftren embarrassing to watch!! They might show them a picutre of Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin, and ask who it is, and you get dorks who say "Kennedy?"...or folks who think that the Civil War was fought in 1933...sutff like that. It's enough to make you doubt that the world can possibly continue much longer. Like the dorks in the UK I heard about on the news today, who were voting for Homer Simpson as the most famous American...Honestly, *can* a cartoon character be the most famous *anything?* besides cartoon, of course... (Again, I'm sure there are pleny of people across the pond who KNOW that Homer Simpson is a cartoon--but they didn't ask them!)** But back to the music-- I do know of several schools with deplorable music programs. I've suffered through dreadful canned shows with hokey lyrics and insipid music. I've been disgusted with my share of music teachers. Still-- I'm sure I'm not the only teacher using music in her classroom!! (although I *have* considered getting some of my 'homemade' books published; I've made up illustrations for several traditional, well-known folk songs, and my kids love them.) If you are teaching, and you know the songs, it's easy to make up a book--especially if you can draw marginally well, or are handy with a good computer graphics program. (I've done it both ways.) My tips (keep in mind that I teach early elementary)-- ~Don't put too many words on a page; either the print or the picture will have to be too small; ~Use the same picture every time the chorus comes around, or a *slight* variation thereof; ~If you play an instrument (I keep an autoharp in my classroom), use it as in incentive: "As soon as you can follow along, and keep the pages turned at the right times, I'll be able to play the autoharp while we sing..." It'll astonish you, how fast kindergarten and first grade, non-reading students learn to track the words as you go. Before long, they recognize the words, and soon they'll recognize them out of context, too. An example: I made a book of Jay Ungar & Molly Mason's "Bound for Another Harvest Home." It has been a favorite with my students every year. The first year I used it, in the fall, one of my pre-reading first-graders came tearing into the classroom with a supermarket flyer one morning. "Look! Look! I found it in the paper! Right here--this page says "HARVEST!" And sure enough--the grocery store was having a "Harvest Sale." The parents were fairly stunned, but I wasn't too surprised. (Pleased, yes; surprised, no.) So, now their son knew a good song AND learned to read a few new words, in the bargain. The kids are also REALLY excited when they can come back to school and tell me that their mom or dad know a song WE know (usually "This Land is Your Land" or "God Bless America."). It makes them feel that school has some relevance to the rest of their life. So, there you go, Patty--I don't even have to write a book! You now know my basic theory and process... --Denise:^) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Frankham Date: 17 Jun 03 - 11:02 AM We use songs to teach kids American History. "Emancipation",(Get Off the Track) "No taxation without representation" (Revolutionary Tea)..taking care of the environment..."Environmental stewardship ..."sustainable growth"(Inch by Inch by Dave Mallet), language skills (many songs singing the chorus in a foreign language) also history about immigration to America...even as was mentioned, ABC teaches the alphabet....songs teach us many things. There are wonderful teachers like Denise who are doing a public service to our school children in various parts of the US who don't get the publicity they deserve. Folk songs are not dying in every school. I believe that this thread is symptomatic of a larger picture of general apathy that is spreading like a disease in this country. Many people seem to have given in to fear and a false sense of patriotism as well as a disregard for the needs of low-income Americans. If this sounds like "liberal" talk, so be it. I've noticed that when progressives are in political office, folk songs tend to be taught in schools. I have also noticed that when progressives were in public office, there was a folk song Revival. Does this tell you something? Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 17 Jun 03 - 09:58 AM Of course. Music has always been used to teach - simple melodies help children retain information. I think we've all been duped by a troll who was either being sarcastic or just picking a fight. Nobody with any intelligence would doubt the value of songs in education. Ron |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Dave Hollowood Date: 17 Jun 03 - 09:47 AM Learn from music? Damn Straight! I guess it could be considered Corporate pop/folk /jazz but the schoolhouse rock songs from the 70's and 80's still reverberate in my mind. Some wonderful lyrics (A man and a woman had a little baby, yes they did, that makes three in the family, its a magic number) and in some cases hauntingly beautiful melodies (Figure 8). htey've taught at least two generations history, math, english, etc. They have had presentations from the original artists where the whole of the audience stood up and sang the songs with them. Never underestimate the power of music! And Sesame Street? I Don't know how much I owe to Jim Henson! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: pattyClink Date: 17 Jun 03 - 09:24 AM Denise, for the love of God, write a book (&CD?) people can use to emulate your method!! Or a curriculum guide or whatever teachie people can relate to. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Pat Cooksey Date: 17 Jun 03 - 05:26 AM SONGS FOR TEACHING.COM ( using music to promote learning ). |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: NicoleC Date: 16 Jun 03 - 06:20 PM "cultire"? Doh! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: NicoleC Date: 16 Jun 03 - 04:42 PM I haven't met a person yet who didn't use the "ABC" song as a kid. (And a few who still use it to alphabetize.) Setting information to music can be a very powerful tool getting kids to remember something, whether it be history or cultire. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 16 Jun 03 - 04:11 PM I'm 45 years old and I learned history, tradition, loyalty and probably "fintness"(if I knew what that meant!) from the Georgia Sea Island Singers this past Saturday night. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,yet ANOTHER guest Date: 16 Jun 03 - 04:06 PM Maybe "another GUEST" could learn SPELLING from a song... (Seriously, I think songs teach kids about a lot of things, and singing together is a great way to make them feel like part of a group. Remember singing at camp?) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 16 Jun 03 - 04:00 PM Guest - If you think they can't learn anything from songs then you are wrong. A song does not replace other methods of teaching, but you would be foolish to dismiss them as a tool. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,another GUEST Date: 16 Jun 03 - 03:50 PM so do you really think that kids can learn histroy, loyalty, tradition, or the 'fintess' of things from songs? your kidding, right? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: denise:^) Date: 14 Jun 03 - 03:23 PM I haven't read all the way through this entire thread--my blood's already boiling, and I didn't make it that far down the page... I'm an elementary teacher, and I'm a folk musician. Consequently, *my* students learn folk songs. They love them, and their parents are always SO excited to have their little ones coming home with songs that they remember, or songs that are meaningful. We had Mother's Day programs in our Kindergarten Classes this year. My students dressed up as garden items--vegetables, flowers, etc.--with a crow, a farmer, a sun and a rain cloud (see where this is going?), and they sang, "Inch by Inch (the Garden Song)" by David Mallett. We made a card about the mothers contributing their precious blossoms to our 'Kinder-garden...' Their parents may not have known this particular song beforehand, but they loved the program! It's a good song, and I've never had a class that didn't love it, or parents who didn't, in 19 years of teaching. The class next door sang "Build Me Up Buttercup." Yes, the '60's pop ditty about an unfaithful 'significant other.' Yes, our kindergarteners are 5-6 years old. No, I'm not making this up. The teacher is in her 20's, and thought it was "a really cool song." It was embarrassing to listen to... Several of the parents were pretty disgusted. Several others didn't know any better themselves. It's scary! I use traditional or "folk" songs to teach reading--I have several books that I have purchased (many from Amazon.com) that are illustrated folk songs. I also make quite a few of my own, on my computer. My kids learn as many in a year as I can squeeze into the curriculum... We sing a patriotic song every morning after the Pledge of Allegiance; we sing when we have to wait in line; we sing when we have to wait a few minutes for the Spanish teacher to come to our room; we play music in the background during free play or "project" time. It sinks in. I have worked at several different schools, and what I see in music class worries me to death. It would have turned ME off as a child, and I was always really 'into' music. Music teachers do a lot of what they are calling "Orff" music (we've had threads on this subject); whether or not they're doing the Orff program "right," this is what I see: they play EVERTYHING with the "1,5; 1,5; 1,5; 1,5..." notes on those detestable xylophon-ey things: "Here's an Indian song--1,5,1,5,1,5,1,5..." "Here's a Spanish song--1,5,1,5,1,5,1,5..." "Here's an African song--1,5,1,5,1,5,1,5..." The kids learn only those 'made-up' songs that go with the Orff instruments. Or they chant. And chant. And chant... My students, when I worked at the schools with the "Orff" teachers, NEVER left music class humming a song... They never sang ANYTHING I ever recognized--and I know a LOT of songs! They were not excited about going to music class (it was always the highlight of my school week!), and were always being punished for "touching THE INSTRUMENT" when they weren't supposed to. This year, at a new school, the music teacher didn't have all those 'bongers' laying around when I took my kids to her room...My hopes rose...She was enthusiastic! She was singing! But-- She was singing silly or downright offensive little ditties: "Miff loves Biff, Miff whiffed Biff (with a hand waved in front of a 'bad smell' face), now Miff hates Biff..." --instead of using her precious time to teach them to love folk songs, or classical music, or opera, or *something* worthwhile! Yeah, all kids sing goofy stuff like that--but then, why bother to teach it to then in music class at school? They'll learn it on their own. Give them something to keep, while you have a chance! This is what they're getting to take with them through life? Sheesh... Yes, they chuckle when they're singing it with her, but what do they sing when they're playing, or we're taking a walk, or riding on a bus? "This Land is Your Land," "I've Been Working on the Railroad," "Where Have All the Flowers Gone," or something else I've taught them--often one of the songs from the list. I know I go bananas and send a huge post or two every time this subject comes up (I was busy with the last week of school earlier this week; that's why it took me so long!), but it's something I really get steamed up about. We only have so much time to plant seeds of worthwhile music, literature, etc., in the minds of these children, before they become cynical and jaded. Yes, I listened to pop radio when I was a kid--but I had a good school music program to influence me, too. I read the Sunday funnies, and 'contemporary' (read: trashy) kids' fiction--but our school library had good books that I chose from every week (don't even get me STARTED on the books!! Our school library is an absolute travesty...), ao that, by the time I was grown, I could make intelligent choices about what I'd read, listen to, do with my free time, etc. The scariest thing is that these kids, with no sense of history, morality, loyalty, tradition, or the 'fitness' of things, are going to be in charge when we get old... |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 13 Jun 03 - 12:30 PM I'm happy to report that I shared the URL with my colleages, and one says she already teaches 1/3 to 1/2 of the songs, and two say they are printing out the list to keep on hand as they make their lesson plans for next year! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 11 Jun 03 - 03:58 PM Don't worry, Dave- they have to "invent" an instrument- they can be inspired by existing instruments but must use no part of any. So, wire is ok, guitar strings are not. I get lots of "boxophones", long-neckd strings, pvc pan pipes, glass bottle pipes and many, many plastic drums. They compose a "recycled percussion" piece in small groups and may or may not notate, depending on how much time we have (this year we didn't). They then present their compositions at an assembly or in front of a kindergarten class. This year the time was so constrained we created whole-class compositions- each child self-selected the category he/she fit into and each group created a rhythm or melody pattern. Then the whole group came together and had to figure out how each part fit together, how to begin the piece, and how to get it. Tomorrow we present the composition at their last school assembly! Next week, we'll sing our favorite songs- Hi ho the rattlin bog, Anne Boleyn, All God's Critters, Drunken Sailor, John Kanaka- stuff like that! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: jimmyt Date: 11 Jun 03 - 02:34 PM Interesting concepts in this thread. I have a friend who graduated with a degree in music, has performed oldies from pop music of the fifties and sixties. He is in his 30s and has an open mind for music in general. He heard our group play recently a set of old 50s and 60s "commercial" folk music, ala P Pand M and Kingston Trio stuff. He was totally unfamiliar with all of this music. Not that he didn't like it, he had NEVER HEARD IT! We performed twice this past weekend for great audiences and second set, we included a lot of singalongs of old hootenanny material (I know, groan!) The audience loved it! many said it was the first time in 30 years they had sung. The younger folks seem to enjoy it also, but are pretty much shocked that it was ever popular music in its time |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 11 Jun 03 - 01:43 PM Well I did say it is starting. The Media from the Printing Press to Cable Television provided culture with the 'one size fits all' oneway consume-it strategy. It was not so much that we would be oldhat not to join in the madness as to be uninformed, and that in a most cases meant losing money. One result of Massbroadcasting was OC the 'common consciousness', the public 'morality' etc. So from Marx to M&M there is a canvas on which to paint, a fertile ground to seed with yer stuff - whatever that may be. But nobody cared to ask what made any of it possible. Reading social history from Luther to MTV it is hard to miss the emergence of all kinds of quakery under this new - at the time - Public Morality. From Hobbes to Freud they all cash in on its effects. However that is about to forever change into something far far more amazing, something that will leave what we today call normal into a dusty forgotten irrelevant and strange way of life. To the Social Historian it will become the last days of Mass Media . So if you think your Folkstuff is that good, post a sample on the internet - very easy these days - and see how many hits you get. The CD can be a MM file off a paysite. If you think you can do old worn out songs about stuff everybody knows already go ahead, but what are you selling? Your voice? your skill as a picker? OTOH posting a badly sung or played originals or local pieces might be time better spent, BECAUSE the Internet is a twoway nosizefitsall media, a meeting place for what is unique, a trading place for what is both unique and valuable, the beginning of Locality re-emerging as the dominant focus of attention. It is so alien to todays cultural heritage that we have to search back as far as the Darkages to find anything like it. Folk (Corpofolk) is dead simply becuase it is no longer possible to force an audience to listen to it. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Dave Hollowood Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:54 PM "a durable, decorated acoustic instrument that really plays, and write a composition for it" - Animaterra Fantastic, though I doubt I would have had the talent to pull that off when I was that age. I "helped" my son construct a crude baililaika (sp?) but he couldn't write a composition. He can't carry a tune in a bucket for that matter. I would agree that the "demise" in folk music is more about community than anything else. We are all to busy, no-one knows their neighbors anymore and it is true that most of us would rather not sing in the presence of others (We're not skinny, beautiful, and electronically altered to perfect tune/pitch)(Me? I don't mind singing, I'm not sure if they mind listening). We don't ahve to create our entertainment anymore. Our values and morals are spoon fed to us (does life imitate art or art imitate life?) Should the power go out (and the batteries run out) sooner or later more people would begin making their own music. It's a shame because it ignites the soul to be able to commune with an instrument. The heartbeat is a great backbeat! The other thing is that most of the childrens' songs mentioned are considered extremely juvenile by todays kids (my daughter stopped calling me "Daddy" at the age of four - still breaks my heart) they aren't going to want to sing them much past kindergarten. I've also got to admit that the last time someone invited me to do the Hokie Pokie I flipped him off. Sorry for contributing to the demise. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: IanC Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:17 PM It's interesting to see how the list of 84 songs coincides with The OldTown Schools Songbook's 94. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Amos Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:03 PM I think the original list is germane to the forum: CHILDREN'S SONGS A Tisket, A Tasket All the Pretty Little Horses Bought Me A Cat (the cat pleased me) Bingo Did You Ever See A Lassie Eency, Weency Spider Farmer in the Dell, The Hickory, Dickory Dock Hokey Pokey, The Hush Little Baby (don't say a word, papa's ...) Rockaby Baby (in the treetops, when the wind...) If You're Happy and You Know It Looby Loo Mary Had A Little Lamb Muffin Man Mulberry Bush Oats, Peas, Beans, and Barley Grow Oh! Dear! What Can the Matter Be? Oh, Where Has My Little Dog Gone Old John the Rabbit Old MacDonald Polly Wolly Doodle Pop! Goes the Weasel Ring Around the Rosies Row, Row, Row Your Boat She'll be Comin' Round the Mountain Take Me Out to the Ballgame There's a Hole in the Bucket This Little Light of Mine This Old Man Three Blind Mice Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star Wheels on the Bus, The FOLK SONGS All Night, All Day Amazing Grace Aura Lee Away in a Manger Billy Boy Camptown Races Cindy Clementine Columbia, Gem of the Ocean Cotton-Eyed Joe Crawdad Song Dixie Down by the Riverside Down in the Valley Drill, Ye Terriers, Drill! Erie Canal, The Follow the Drinkin' Gourd Frog Went A-Courtin', A Go Down, Moses Go Tell Aunt Rhody Go Tell it on the Mountain God of our Fathers Goober Peas Goodbye, Old Paint He's Got the Whole World in His Hands Home on the Range I Couldn't Hear Nobody Pray I've Been Workin' On the Railroad Jim Along, Josie Blue Tail Fly, The Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho Kum Ba Yah Liza Jane Michael Row the Boat Ashore Oh, Susanna Old Chisholm Trail Old Folks At Home (Way down upon the Swanee River, far, far away) Onward Christian Soldiers Over the River and Through the Woods Rock-A-My-Soul Shenandoah Shoo Fly Shortnin' Bread Simple Gifts Silent Night Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child Susie, Little Susie Sweet Betsy From Pike Swing Low, Sweet Chariot Water is Wide, The We Gather Together When the Saints Go Marching In You Are My Sunshine PATRIOTIC SONGS America America, the Beautiful Battle Hymn of the Republic God Bless America Marines' Hymn (From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli) Star-Spangled Banner, The Caissons Song This Land is Your Land When Johnny Comes Marching Home Yankee Doodle You're A Grand Old Flag A. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,marilyn@neflin.org Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:51 AM Hi All! Great discussion! I'm the girl who did the folk song study. You can see the results at http://www.neflin.org/marilyn/folksongsurvey The list of 100 songs is there. I'd post it here, but it'd be too long. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Jun 03 - 09:53 AM Having just read all of the songs on the recommended list, to make up an annotated singers' songbook for use with kids, I think I know why most of them aren't taught in schools any more-- a variety of converging reasons: 1. Some are hymns. Not in schools, nowadays. 2. Some are VERY non-PC. Schools have not figured out how or when to teach the history that makes sense out of what used to be unquestioned culture. 3. Some are considered too juvenile for elementary age-- you get these at home or in preschool. 4. Some are considered ubiquitous-- doesn't EVERY child know Twinkle Twinkle, so why teach it? 5. Some are considered outmoded-- Daisy would ride a bike now not because a carriage can't be afforded, but because the SUV is still on the wish list. 6. Barney has replaced working-class archtypes (media and classism converging). 7. Classism-- schools hold up middle class values, not crawdads and shortnin' bread. That's po' folks food. Head Start is supposed to end all that and save our children into the middle class. And spirituals? Slave history has historically been a period many African Americans would prefer not to be associated with. 8. Take Me Out to the Ballgame-- yeah, let's DO ditch school today! I don't care if I EVER get back! What school is going to teach that? 9. That still leaves a few songs not accounted for. I guess the catchall answer is, times change. So I think there is a need for us to pass these songs along, with all the wonderful lore we have about them, and with any wisdom we may have accumulated about what they mean and how they relate to our culture now. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Frankham Date: 11 Jun 03 - 09:28 AM Folk music is about change. It's also about continuity. Can't have one without the other. Folk music and tradition are synonymous. Media helps folk music....recording companies, radio broadcasts, TV shots, internet.....and fortunately we still live in a pluralistic society where it's not all the same. There's other outlets than just Fox Ñews. If there is going to be a new revival of interest in folk music it can't be just warmedover pop songs from the sixties with accoustic guitars and vocal stylists. Somebody has to do their homework. They gotta' study the way it was done by their folk music predecessors. There needs to be more about writing good folk-style songs. I like to bring up Jean Ritchie because she is able to use her background and tradition in the creation of her songs. AP Carter did this. Woody Guthrie also. And in his own way, Pete Seeger and Tom Paxton. There are others who are lesser known. Sometimes, just messing with them and making them "better" in your own way is OK. As to dress and fashion, this is part of show business. Can you see Sinatra in overhauls? (Maybe some can). Would you accept a grunge band in shining tuxedos? How about a blues man in the garb of seventies disco? Dress is part of the show business image. Most traditional working people from the Appalachian community dressed up in suits, ties, and their finest frocks when they go appear in public. Ralph Stanley wears a tie. So did Monroe. A lot has to do with what the audience will accept. It has nothing really to do with music. But dress is a show-business conveyor. If you don't look the part of the music that you play in the audience's mind, you won't succeed at presenting it. What is dying is a sense of community as we become more mechanized, propagandized, fast-foodized, Orwellianized (war is peace) and sanitized. One way to counteract this onslaught is to become tuned in to nature. The hiking trails, bike paths, bird watching, swimming in the creeks (that are not yet polluted, sailing on the ocean, tending a garden...these things lead us away from the abstraction of technology. Technology can serve us in music or in life if we are in tune with nature. Stepping off the pulpit now. Damn, it's so easy to get preachy. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Nevada Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:49 AM Sad but true. I have just left school & almost finished my exams, & although i have to admit i'm a crazed Eminem fan, (yes, i do know all the words to "Lose Yourself"), i still know where my roots are. I go to 10 or 11 festivals a year & to clubs at least once a fortnight. Unfortunatly, this is not due to my school music teacher, who having found out i like folk music, continually asks when i'm going to perform my Irish dancing?!! One of my teachers is into Bob Dylan, but does not go to clubs or festivals. It does appear that we are losing our tradition, but all we can do is keep playing & hope. Keep it Live! Luv AAA x |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:04 AM Well, most of these songs can be found at Mudcat, Kiddiddles, or Enchanted Learning. (Of course here at Mudcat we have the added bonus of Origins information, variants, and memories of singing them.) Many appear in the Wee Sing series of books and tapes. I wonder if some of them are no longer taught in school because they have become ubiquitous? Or perhaps they are taught in schools, but in early-childhood programs that didn't exist when our elders went to school? Were pre-K teachers included in the Ward surveys? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:20 AM Fortunato, I still think you are wrong to blame the media for this and your arguement only proves it. The media just regurgitates what the public wants. The media serves no other purpose than to make money - not that it is right, but that is the way it works. The public buys this crap. If your home truly teaches the values you mention (which I'm sure it does) then your children can separate the phony entertainment values and make the right decisions - and that is the point I was getting at. Blaming the media for violence and "degeneration" is missing the point and an easy (and wrong) excuse. If you are doing the right things as a parent then your children know the difference. If a person fails as a parent or a teacher, don't look to the media as the excuse. Check a mirror. Somehow this has turned into a morals issue, which was not what the discussion was about. Clumping all pop culture under a "degenerate" label fails to recognize what brought it about. Just because a midriff shows or a bra pushes up does not turn a child into a degenerate. The point I was attempting to make was that you can't ignore pop culture and expect old models to fit current needs. "Kumbayah" is not relevant to a kid watching MTV. However, someone like Eliza Carthy, Jewel, Full Frontal Folk and so many others can show that folk music is "cool" and perhaps, just maybe, some of those kids will learn a little something about the tradition. Whatever happens will only happen because a society makes it possible. The period only serves to close the sentence, there is still more to the story. Ron |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:03 AM After reading all the posts and thinking about how we use media today I am even more certain that 'Folk' as we were conditioned to think of it, is gone. World music is not going anywhere while people move from passive to active media use; besides after I heard the latest cloned performance of the same old standards, I wonder why people are singing them. Is this the folk version of 'Elvis'? So what do we know that is unique to our place? At this time very little I bet, but that is how it begins ..... |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:00 PM IT AIN'T DEAD...till it starts to:
Sincerely,
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Fortunato Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:40 PM Ron, I don't agree. There is no gratuitous sex and violence in my home. There are no individuals who are scantily clad. There are no videos who call women ho's and bitches. I see degeneration around me and I see the news media, the radio and movies and television as the purveyors of that degeneration. I don't believe the mothers and fathers across the country choose these trends; I believe we have found wealth in violence and we seek wealth as a society. But individuals within society have always stood for what they believe is right apart from what is profit. We do so. We have struggled in our home to provide values of decency, honor, and respect for life and individual rights, while all the while our children have been bombarded with sex in the junior high school, and push up bras and bare midriffs for pre-teenage girls. My period stays. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: paddywack Date: 10 Jun 03 - 05:54 PM If you leave something alone for long enough it will soon become forgotten.(This applies to just about anything and everything.)Forgotten does not mean dying. I am totally convinced that at some time in our future we will be able to ressurect even the dinosaur via dna.The bottom line is nothing dies. Now to my point.Up until four years ago I was chair of governors at our local primary school. As part of my duties I took it upon myself to run a music workshop. I scoured the carboot sales looking for instruments. When I had found enough I sent fliers round the school."If you would like your child to learn a musical instrument and purchase one at amore than reasonable price then contact the headmaster". I started the children off with basic two chord folk songs.Within a matter of weeks we had a school band. (The headmaster made the mistake of announcing them on one particular assembly as the school orchestra.)This was great for him to be able to say he had an orchestra, but the kids hated it.The very next day I got the children together and said that we would be holding a talent competition.The rule was that the only people to vote were those that took part. The first prize was that they got to choose the name of the band.The headmaster lost his orchestra ,and the childre ended up with a school band called "SQUEAK". They say that it is sport in school that teaches a child to become part of a team, my reply to this is "rubbish".On the day of the talent show I told the children to organise themselves into solo acts or groups.It was absolutely magic for me to see an eleven year old boy,along with his guitar choose an eight year old girl with her recorder to partner him. There was twenty eight primary school children with anything up to a four year age gap picking and choosing the opposite sex, younger and older. This is what team work is all about.They made the rules ,they organised themselves and I reaped the rewards.I had organised and ran a folk session twice a week for two years for primary aged children. It sadly came to an end when I moved home, but I can live off memories like that. The headmaster managed to take the glory for my efforts (But that dont matter),He entered my children in a competition run by the Guardian newspaper.He totally undermined them, he paired them off, he told them what to play and he had to stand in front of them waving his hands as though he knew what he was doing.They came second. I planted the seed in in them so that they could grow on their own.(Yes I am blowing my own trumpet but I saw what they had become, another generation of folkies). I go out now as a singer/musician but I will never walk off stage and get that same buzz that I got from watching those children walk on. Folk music could not die.It only takes one person to infect a nation. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Amos Date: 10 Jun 03 - 04:39 PM A good list though some of them are pretty latter-day stuff and don't add much value (If You're Happy and You Know It ) and others I never cared for much -- I never could figure out why I was supposed to go Loobyloo or what it meant to do so, and why it was germane to Saturdays...no-one tells kids anything!! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 10 Jun 03 - 04:39 PM Hey, I teach a lot more of those than I suspected! And you'd be surprised how many kids come to school aged 5-6 knowing a lot of them, either from public television or the excellent array of tapes and cds for kids that are on the market. And do they LOVE singing them! (I'm still blushing from the praise, but I have to add, Dave, that my "graduation requirement" for 5th grade is that they have to invent a durable, decorated acoustic instrument that really plays, and write a composition for it) Jeri, no disguise needed. Come on down any time! My kids love showing off for visitors, and they love it even more when the visitors join in! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Dave Hollowood Date: 10 Jun 03 - 04:38 PM Yeah, I guess I'm not too bad off, I know most of them too. Marine Corps Hymn? I always thought it was an anthem. Hymns were always prayers offered to music. Marines don't need prayers, if they're offered it's for the people they're about to encounter (with extreme prejudice!). No offense to any of you Marines out there, Semper Fi! It makes a great geography lesson. It also points out that we've always had problems with backward little third world countries! I'm rather suprised the other service "hymns" didn't make the list. Anchors Away, Wild Blue Yonder, Semper Paratus ("Always Prepared" - Coast Guard - Ain't we just grown up boyscouts!). I believe the caisson song refers to "When the caissons go rolling along"? Is that the "official" Army hymn? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: NicoleC Date: 10 Jun 03 - 03:52 PM Hey, I know almost all of those! Or at least the chorusor the first verse. Maybe my music history experience isn't as bad as I thought. Although to be honest, I can't see that songs like "The Wheels on the Bus" have any more educational merit than the latest Disney movie theme. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Jun 03 - 03:44 PM From Marilyn Ward, who I have invited to join the discussion: Susan, this is the list of songs representing the American children's folk heritage. I began with several hundred music books and songbooks from the 1700's to 1950. Every song listed in at least 3 books was included in the initial list (500+ songs). Then I surveyed 233 elderly people from 44 states in the nation to determine which songs they had learned as children growing up in America between 50-100 years ago. Their list was 250+ songs. Then I sent that list to the top 30 University Elementary Music Education Specialists (as determined from the college rankings put out by U.S. News and World Report). They narrowed it down to the 100 songs most representative of the American children's folk heritage. CHILDREN'S SONGS A Tisket, A Tasket All the Pretty Little Horses Bought Me A Cat (the cat pleased me) Bingo Did You Ever See A Lassie Eency, Weency Spider Farmer in the Dell, The Hickory, Dickory Dock Hokey Pokey, The Hush Little Baby (don't say a word, papa's ...) Rockaby Baby (in the treetops, when the wind...) If You're Happy and You Know It Looby Loo Mary Had A Little Lamb Muffin Man Mulberry Bush Oats, Peas, Beans, and Barley Grow Oh! Dear! What Can the Matter Be? Oh, Where Has My Little Dog Gone Old John the Rabbit Old MacDonald Polly Wolly Doodle Pop! Goes the Weasel Ring Around the Rosies Row, Row, Row Your Boat She'll be Comin' Round the Mountain Take Me Out to the Ballgame There's a Hole in the Bucket This Little Light of Mine This Old Man Three Blind Mice Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star Wheels on the Bus, The FOLK SONGS All Night, All Day Amazing Grace Aura Lee Away in a Manger Billy Boy Camptown Races Cindy Clementine Columbia, Gem of the Ocean Cotton-Eyed Joe Crawdad Song Dixie Down by the Riverside Down in the Valley Drill, Ye Terriers, Drill! Erie Canal, The Follow the Drinkin' Gourd Frog Went A-Courtin', A Go Down, Moses Go Tell Aunt Rhody Go Tell it on the Mountain God of our Fathers Goober Peas Goodbye, Old Paint He's Got the Whole World in His Hands Home on the Range I Couldn't Hear Nobody Pray I've Been Workin' On the Railroad Jim Along, Josie Blue Tail Fly, The Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho Kum Ba Yah Liza Jane Michael Row the Boat Ashore Oh, Susanna Old Chisholm Trail Old Folks At Home (Way down upon the Swanee River, far, far away) Onward Christian Soldiers Over the River and Through the Woods Rock-A-My-Soul Shenandoah Shoo Fly Shortnin' Bread Simple Gifts Silent Night Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child Susie, Little Susie Sweet Betsy From Pike Swing Low, Sweet Chariot Water is Wide, The We Gather Together When the Saints Go Marching In You Are My Sunshine PATRIOTIC SONGS America America, the Beautiful Battle Hymn of the Republic God Bless America Marines' Hymn (From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli) Star-Spangled Banner, The Caissons Song This Land is Your Land When Johnny Comes Marching Home Yankee Doodle You're A Grand Old Flag Then I used the information from the elderly study to determine, of those 100 songs, which were most frequently taught to children growing up in America between 50-100 years ago, all across America. This created a recommended song list (84 songs). Here's that list, too. Hope this helps. Thanks for writing! Take Care, Marilyn Ward RECOMMENDED SONG LIST 1. A Tisket, A Tasket (a green and yellow basket) 2. All Night, All Day (angels watchin' over me, my Lord) 3. All The Pretty Little Horses (Hushaby, don't you cry) 4. Amazing Grace (how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me) 5. America (my country 'tis of Thee, sweet land of liberty) 6. America, the Beautiful (Oh beautiful for spacious skies) 7. Away in a Manger 8. Battle Hymn of the Republic 9. Billy Boy 10. Bingo 11. Blue Tail Fly, The 12. Caissons Go Rolling Along, The 13. Camptown Races, The 14. Cindy 15. Clementine 16. Columbia, the Gem of the Ocean 17. Crawdad Song 18. Did You Ever See A Lassie? 19. Dixie 20. Down By the Riverside 21. Down in the Valley 22. Eency, Weency Spider 23. Farmer in the Dell, The 24. Frog Went Courtin', A 25. Go Down, Moses 26. Go Tell Aunt Rhody 27. Go Tell it on the Mountain 28. God Bless America 29. God of our Fathers 30. Goober Peas 31. Goodbye, Old Paint (I'm a-leaving Cheyenne) 32. He's Got the Whole World In His Hands 33. Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush 34. Hickory Dickory Dock 35. Hokey Pokey, The 36. Home on the Range 37. Hush Little Baby 38. Rock-a-by Baby 39. I've Been Workin' On the Railroad 40. If You're Happy and You Know It 41. Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho 42. Kum Ba Yah (my Lord, Kum Ba Yah) 43. Liza Jane 44. Looby Loo 45. Marines Hymn 46. Mary Had a Little Lamb 47. Michael Row the Boat Ashore 48. Muffin Man, The 49. Oats, Peas, Beans, and Barley Grow 50. Oh! Dear! What Can the Matter Be? 51. Oh, Susanna! 52. Oh, Where has My Little Dog Gone? 53. Old Chisholm Trail 54. Old Folks at Home 55. Old MacDonald 56. Onward Christian Soldiers 57. Over the River and Through the Woods 58. Polly Wolly Doodle 59. Pop, Goes the Weasel! 60. Ring Around the Rosies 61. Rock-A My Soul 62. Row, Row, Row Your Boat 63. She'll Be Comin' Round the Mountain 64. Shenandoah 65. Shoo Fly 66. Shortnin-Bread 67. Silent Night 68. Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child 69. Star-Spangled Banner, The 70. Swing Low, Sweet Chariot 71. Take Me Out to the Ballgame 72. There's A Hole in the Bucket 73. This Land is Your Land 74. This Little Light of Mine 75. This Old Man 76. Three Blind Mice 77. Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star 78. We Gather Together 79. Wheels on the Bus, The 80. When Johnny Comes Marching Home 81. When the Saints Go Marching In 82. Yankee Doodle 83. You are my Sunshine 84. You're A Grand Old Flag |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:51 PM Well put Amos. People tend to think that old models need to be kept intact for music to perpetuate (i.e. - folk clubs). Folk music ia a living tradition and it must adapt to modern technology. The internet for example is one aspect where folk music seems to be blossoming. Festival attendance seems to be up. Perhaps the day of a coffeehouse or local club has become outmoded and unnecessary. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Amos Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:46 PM I just came down off a mountain where a friend holds an annual three-day bash called "Geekfest". All engineering types who talk code, drivers, loops, protocols and god knows what all. But there I was batting out tunes for them for three solid nights, alone some and accompanied some, and I got to tell ya, there was nothing dead about the music or the appreciation there of. I think it is kind of like an underground reservoir of water -- it'll out where it can, not necessarily where it is supposed to. A |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:39 PM I'm sort of in the middle on the fashion issue. Every generation has its own fashion statement. In the sixties there were mini skirts, long hair and more - I remember my parents being horrified at some of the things they wore. Sure MTV has created images, but it caters to physical of fashion perfection in the same way as the 60's did. If you had a crew cut in the 60's you were "square". Folk, blues, gospel and bluegrass may not cater to the bare midriff crowd, but when someone from the bare midriff crowd comes into folk they are immediately singled out. Each crowd maintains an image that becomes hard to break. We aren't unique. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Tunesmith Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:37 PM I went to see Cara Dillon last week. The place was packed! 300? And I was wondering why most those people didn't support our local folkclub. But in reality there's a world of difference between the well-organised performance of Cara and friends, and what greets visitors to their local folkclub i.e. some very amateur efforts and a rather cliquish atmosphere . It would seem that the well-establish way of running folkclubs ( in the UK ) is bound to die.I'd give them ten more years at most. Sad but..... |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: NicoleC Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:31 PM I agree, Ron -- I was noting that said magazine also assumes that folk = grungy and pop stars MUST be beautiful (or vice versa). It may be a marketing fact that the Dixie Chicks had to show some navel to sell their first records, but it's still awfully said. The vast majority of kids out there won't ever be one of the "beautiful people" (and those that will won't believe it at a young age anyway.) Kids who think they have to achieve some kind of physical or fashion perfection to play music are not going to try. It's because folk, blues, gospel, etc. don't cater to the bare midriff crowd that it can become MORE accessible to kids. They just have to be exposed to it enough to get over the marketing brainwashing -- get past the MTV images and hear the music. Great call, Dave, on making their own instruments. That might get their brains working in a way that being forced to be an audience member (of something they assume they won't like) won't. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:04 PM The sky is falling, the sky is falling!! We have a thread going that is moaning about folk music dying and another that is moaning out radio dying. I better find a new pastime. Joking aside, there are some good examples of things we can do to HELP interest new ears toward folk music, but they still need a reason to embrace the music in the first place. What are we trying to accomplish? If we want folk music to compete with popular music, we have just changed the definition. Play it, they will come. And why do we need to comment on the way artists dress? I am not singling you out Nicole, many people do this all the time. Why does folk music need a costume? Denim and flannel. Jewel feels comfortable the way she looks, then fine. I've seen folk singers look like they picked their attire out of trashbins. That shouldn't influence their music. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Dave Hollowood Date: 10 Jun 03 - 01:39 PM It's on life support..and that's where you come in. Forget monitary donations. If you can play and sing get involved! Folk music was traditionally a way of teaching and entertaining. We all seem to be lamenting what the schools are doing, but what are we doing about it? The cure to this malady is involvement! Check with your local schools and see what they are teaching. See if they will allow you to come in and perform traditional pieces that are part of curriculum that they are teaching. "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" comes to mind. Many of the pieces of folk music are "public domain" (here in the states) and so can be easily gotten and reproduced without much hassle. To counter the "we have no money for instruments" argument you can either have students make their own instruments or use the many plans that abound on the internet for the creation of instruments. PVC piping can be used to make cheap flutes, whistles, percussion and other instruments. Look what the Blue Man group does with it! It can be personalized (always a plus among students) without damage to the instruments. to counter the "we don't have the time" argument, hold sessions during lunch or recess (if it exists)or even after school (at least you'll get some of the kids and you'll be performing a vital public service for working parents). Get involved! Don't let the Music die! (Thanks to Kaleea, Tooligan, and Nicole C for the inspiration o this thread!) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: NicoleC Date: 10 Jun 03 - 01:34 PM Just an aside -- I saw a headline the other day about some star getting a makeover. I think it was about Jewel, and it read "From Folk to Fabulous!" Accompanied, of course, by a picture of a photo slathered with too much makeup and a skimpy dress. Fabulous? I think not. "Trashy," maybe. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 10 Jun 03 - 01:16 PM Scratch that "period" Chance, it is not that easy. If you "drag" a child to a festival they are going to be resentful for one thing. The other is all this crap about "brainwashing" from the media. BS!!!!! I am so sick of people making the media to always be the scapegoat - that is too damn easy and it misses the real problems! The media "brainwashes" in the same way that parents, church, politicans, peers, etc. are involved in "brainwashing". If a parent can't lead a child to figure out right from wrong for themselves, then there is no hope. Bare midriffs and pushup bras? Why does the folk crowd need to be denim and flannel? That is an image that the folkies have created - "brainwashing" their audience the same way that Britney & co. do to theirs. The "sell" is that each appealed to a specific generation at a specific point in time. You can't manufacture that - it evolves from the culture. Perhaps it is groups like Full Frontal Folk that might lead to new audiences. Ron |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Fortunato Date: 10 Jun 03 - 01:00 PM Blessings upon Bev and Johnny and all those who take music to the schools. It is a rare music or elementary teacher who can go much beyond 'Skip to my Lou', and a steady diet of those old hackneyed songs could put our children right off music altogether. How does one compete with bare midriffs and pushup bras? Drag you ungrateful whelps to festival and away from the tube. They may not like it but any day away from the brainwashing they're getting from the media is a good day. Period. chance |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music Dying? From: Amos Date: 10 Jun 03 - 08:40 AM Thanks for the correction, Ian!! My grade-school inaccuracies have stuck with me! A |
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