Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts

Subject: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: mg
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 10:57 PM

Hi..wonder if any historians out there know anything about this. Someone told me in WWII there were of course blackouts, especially on the coast, and the oysters often have to be picked at night. He implied rather than said that his mother was involved in this...I will be asking him again for confirmation, especially since I have written a song about this, but as I ask other people in the oyster trade, some say it was impossible, some say they never heard of it..One man who works with me at the Interpretive Center says it is true and they honked them back home with their cars. The mud here is really bad mud you can sink in, so it is incomprehensible to me doing it at night with no light..and bad storms, fog etc. Has anyone any knowledge of this in Washington or other oystering areas?

mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: Bert
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 12:53 AM

It's quite possible that they used a torch (flashlight). During the war torches were made with hoods over them so that the light only shone downwards.

After the war, we used to buy these cheaply from surplus stores and remove the hoods so that we could use them on out bikes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: Bert
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 12:59 AM

My buddy here says that he has been awake for many nights worrying about this very problem.

Also, I'm not too sure that the authorities in England would have been overly concerned if the Jerries had bombed a few oyster beds.

I hope you have a verse in your song about an air raid warden paddling through the mud yelling "Put that bloody light out".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 01:10 AM

Louisiana regulations prohibit oystering from one half hour after sunset to one half hour before sunrise; i. e., no night oystering.

Oystering at night smacks of poaching to me, or working on beds under restriction for some reason.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 07:44 AM

Mmmm ! I think there may be a difference between Oystering on the East and Souh Coasts of the UK 1939-45 and on the East Coast of the US of A 1941 -45.

Firstly UK oysters, unless farmed, are dredged, rather than picked, they require a flowing tide to breed and feed. The flats at the mouth of the Swale and Colne, and Fal were defended with obstructions and mines as an anti invasion precaution, and the beaches mined, and obstructed. Fishing boats etc. of all sizes were requisitioned for military use, and where not requisitioned were restricted on where they could fish. A metal Oyster dredge in close proximaty to a Magnetic Mine would not improve your life expectancy.

To this day it is still common for a Trawler to bring home high explosives in her nets. The resultant disposal can be quite spectacular.

In Cheasapeake Bay (US) I understand that Oysters were/are dredged.

I believe there are some species of Oyster that grow between the high and low water marks - Could this be the difference, or are we confusing Oysters with Clams and other shellfish ?

Just a thought

Gareth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 02:15 PM

The dredge is a basket attached to a toothed bar. Dragged over an oyster reef, the bar lifts of the oysters, which are caught by the basket. It can scoop up as many as 200 oysters. Tongs seldom get more than 30 at a time.
Oystering in Chesapeake Bay started out with tongs, later replaced by dredges. The "oyster wars" were fought between tongers and dredgers, marked by violence.
The harvest today in Chesapeake Bay is estimated to be 1/100 of what it was in the late 19th century. Chesapeake

Oysters kept at cool temperatures (not freezing) may remain alive for weeks. Even in the days of the westward expansion, restaurants in some of the mining towns offered this delicacy. The railroads, as lines expanded, brought oysters to almost the entire country. In the 1930s, in Santa Fe, NM, I remember fresh oysters were available, brought in on the Santa Fe railroad. Air transit was not necessary.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 02:45 PM

A photo of a restaurant and oyster saloon in the town of Golden, Colorado, 1870-1880, may be found in American Memory, if oystering is put in Search.

Trying to find American songs (many from UK) about oysters, I ran across this one in American Memory. I find the offerings of the establishment interesting- The first verse of the song "Molly Guzzled" ends:
And Lord! How her eyes did beam,
As she gazed upon the sign:
Oysters, Candies and Ice Cream!
Molly! Molly!

The song is about her love of ice cream, so not pertinent here. But it brought up the image of an oyster ice cream cone.

A waltz song, "Champagne and Oysters," by J. P. Skelly, New York, 1878, is item 100 on the list under oystering in American Memory.

The chorus:
Champagne and oysters, champagne and oysters,
While we are feasting, our cares fly away,
Champagne and oysters, champagne and oysters,
Over our glasses we love to delay.

Ugh! Hardly memorable.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 07:21 PM

Access to the sea on the East and South coasts was pretty tightly regulated during the war, for obvious reasons, worries about spies landing from U-boats and so forth. I'd think night time oystering would have been likely to have been severely curtailed.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 07:53 PM

Night Oystering smells like a snipe-hunt to me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: mg
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 08:38 PM

well goodness gracious. Why in the world would anyone begrudge an oysterman or oysterwoman the choice of picking the oysters when it is best for them to do so, day or night. They have to get them at night here in the winter because that is when the low tides are. I don't know about the other times of the year. It is a hard and dangerous line of work and here we can sit and criticize them from our computers. What a world we live in. mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 11:15 PM

Where is here? I understand MD still has a few dredgers with sail, but they are unknown in other American and Canadian oyster areas. Tides are used in different ways. In Washington, boats come in at high tide and pick up the mesh containers that are filled at low tide (these cages are 30 bushel in Connecticut, I don't know if the size is set in Washington).
Night oystering is prohibited off much of the Gulf Coast. The beds are far from shore; transport to shore may take hours. The reefs are too deep to be worked by anything but dredges on fairly large motorized vessels.

The Gulf Coast provides more than 50% of the oysters consumed in the U. S. The area Conn. through Maine provides about 15%, the west coast some 25%, and other areas less than 10%. This is a great shift from the 19th century harvests, when the Chesapeake area contributed to national sales. Delaware has strict regulations for natural reefs, but most harvesting is from private leased beds. Aquaculture is important in Connecticut, but I don't know details.

Some of the Washington area is farmed, but many are harvested off beaches at low tide. Many triploid (genetically altered) oysters are being harvested. The beds are seeded (hatchery produced), because reproduction is slow in the genetically altered oysters. Oysters are harvested directly into steel mesh containers which are later retrieved by vessels at high tide and transported to processing plants. Oysters for half shell consumption may be directly sold bagged to buyers at the beach. The Japanese oyster, gigas, fairly large, greatly increased production from this region, but others have been seeded and are being harvested. Some 5 different kinds are now available from Washington, and over 8 million pounds are harvested yearly and sold coast to coast.
Washington to California (and British Columbia) provide about 25 % of the total oyster harvest.
Methods used in Washington, and in the Gulf, are quite different from the old methods described for the east coast The old tongs are long gone from commercial harvesting, and new dredging tools have been developed.

Here in Western Canada, most of the East Coast oysters sold are from Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick, plus the salty Belon from Newfoundland. U. S. Atlantic coast oysters are seldom seen. Malpeques have been seeded on the west coast but most are from PEI and are sold under the name Stanley Bridge. Varietal names, as genetic modification takes over, are being used that have little reference to either species or old marketing names, and I keep a menu from a local oyster bar so that I can identify what I am getting. Names like Kumamoto (a small Japanese raised in Washington), Emerald Cove, Totten Inlet, are among the 30 sold at my favorite oyster bar (of course, only about half that available on any given day).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: Bert
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 04:22 AM

McGrath has a point. I'm sure that there would have been some restrictions on access to the coast. But fishing and shellfish gathering still had to go on; so either the authorities would have made some allowances for the local gatherers, or the locals would have managed somehow to circumvent the regulations.

So how about posting the song Marymeluv?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 07:06 AM

Hi Mary, I'm sure you already know this, but read the diaries of James G. Swan. He was many things, including an oysterman in Willipa Harbor about 1847. His life story is absolutly amazing. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 08:49 AM

Bert, there were heavy restrictions on the UK coasts - and some very nasty minefields, ours and thiers, just off the coast. Dig yerself out an Admiralty Chart of the Thames Estuary, or Dover Strait, and you will see what I mean by the sheer number of Wrecks, restricted areas, and deliberate obstructions left 60 years later.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: mg
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:59 AM

I posted it in the oyster songs thread..oops..should have clickedf it... ut it is still up...mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: georgeward
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:39 PM

Mary,

   I grew up near Oyster Bay, Long Island, NY during WWII. I don't remember anything, myself, about oystering in blackouts. And many of the older-generation types, like my dad, who'd have a quick answer have passed out of telephone range.

    I do remember oil slicks on the beaches from ships torpedoed offshore. As an adult, I've wondered what their effect was on the shellfish industry. The war felt like a very immediate thing, even to a five-year-old.

    The Flower family, however, who have tended the beds in Oyster Bay for over a hundred years, are still very much involved in the business and might have some tales for you. I'd offer to ask in person, but I don't get "downstate" often there days. Here's a link to the Flowers' website: Frank M. Flower & Sons, Inc.

Hope it helps. - George

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oystering in WWII Blackouts
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:43 PM

Not daring to speak to this myself (since I grew up away from the oyster beds) I asked the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum if there was oystering on the Bay at night during WWII. Here's the answer:

"I rather suspect that some oystering was still taking place at night during World War II, but, if so, it was not legal. I believe oystering at night has been illegal since about 1865, when Maryland's oystering laws were overhauled and reenacted.

The offense of oystering at night was usually committed to cover up some additional illegal activity, such as dredging on ground reserved for tongers or dredging with a power vessel instead of a sailing vessel, or some other such offense.


Sincerely,
Pete Lesher
Curator
Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum"

If you haven't visited the CBMM, do so. Their display on oystering is wonderful -- as is the whole place.