Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?

Subject: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: MudGuard
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 04:45 PM

Hello,

do you know who is the composer and texter of the British National Anthem?
And maybe even when it was texted/composed?

I searched here and in google and found lots of pages with the text and some with the tune, but no info about composer and texter.

Many thanks in advance,

MudGuard/Andy

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 04:48 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Text and Tune is often credited to Henry Carey, 1740, although there is controversy with many votes, including the British monarchy's, for anonymous. On official occasions, only the first verse is usually sung, and occasionally verse 3. The tune has been used by many countries for anthems and hymns.
According to the French encyclopaedia, Quid, the music is by Giam Battista Lulli (Jean-Baptiste Lully in the French form). It was loosely based on a hymn sung when the (French) king arrived at an event, Domine Salvum Fac Regem. When Louis XIV was scheduled to open the educational institution at St-Cyr (1686), his mistress (later, queen), the Marquise de Maintenon, commissioned Lully to write the tune to be sung by the pupils as Dieu Protège le Roi. The French, apparently, did not use it again until 1745 at which time the Old Pretender, claiming to be King James III of England, was organising his rebellion from France (he lived at St-Germain-de-Laye). Madame de Maintenon presented him with the words and music as his National Anthem. (It is not clear who wrote the English words but the implication is that Mme de Maintenon either wrote them herself or commissioned them.) The song was sung for the first time in Britain when Bonnie Prince Charlie landed in Scotland. There are apparently some legal testaments to this story. first publicly performed in London, 1745
From:http://ingeb.org/songs/godsaveo.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen
From: MudGuard
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 04:58 PM

Mudcat is really amazing.

Only 3 minutes, and my question is answered!

Thanks, Sorcha!

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:15 PM

Rather synchronistically there was a programme on BBC Radio 4 last night (12.15am today strictly) Anon's Anthem: the Strange Story of God Save The King covering the history and versions of the words and tune of this very song. I don't know if it's available on the BBC web site.

(I wasn't paying real attention to the programme, but I seem to recall that part of the tune was present in a John Bull tune).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen
From: MudGuard
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:21 PM

Thanks, Mick - there is a short piece of text on the BBC pages here: click me

MudGuard/Andy

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:27 PM

The programme doesn't appear to be available on the web site, but there was this in a press release about programme's from a year ago it seems (on this page):

"Presenter Robert King attempts to discover the origins of the National Anthem in Anon's Anthem (Tuesday 4 June, 1.30pm). Scholars now tend to believe the anthem in its first manifestation was an act of homage to the Stuarts, maybe as far back as the early 1680s. After 1745, when the first performance of God Save Our Noble King was recorded, the tune and multiple versions of the words became immensely popular. It eventually emerged as the British National Anthem - although no Act of Parliament or royal decree has ever been instituted to make it so. In fact the melody has been borrowed for use by some 20 countries or principalities in the course of the last 200 years, and is still the tune for Liechtenstein's national anthem. Among the contributors are the conductor Leonard Slatkin who tells how the tune was purloined by the USA for My Country 'Tis Of Thee - and Major Roger Swift at the Royal Military School of Music at Kneller Hall lets slip what The Queen feels about how the anthem should be performed"

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:29 PM

Oops cross-post of similar nature!

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 07:29 PM

Andy, I don't really know how you missed it. It was the first link to come up on Google..........and, always check Volksleider for info like that. Folk songs in many languages, lots with tunes and info.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 09:06 PM

This is one of the earliest versions, which is at
Internet Library of Early Journals.

Gentleman's Magazine, Vol. 15, Oct 1745, Page 552

~Masato

Subject: ADD: Parody: God Save the King?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:57 AM

I don't know where I learned this, but I think it should be posted here.

King Henry was the king
He could do anything
He was the king
One night he had a date
King Henry stayed out late
The Queen was waiting at the gate
God save the King!

---

Here's the entry from the Traditional Ballad Index:

God Save the King (God Save the Queen, etc.)

DESCRIPTION: Good wishes for the King of England: "God save (our Lord, or any monarch's name) the King, Long live our noble king, God save the King. Send him victorious, Happy and glorious, Long to reign over us, God save the King." Other verses equally insipid
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: c. 1744 ("Harmonia Anglicana")
KEYWORDS: royalty political nonballad
FOUND IN: Britain(England)
REFERENCES (3 citations):
Chappell/Wooldridge II, pp. 194-200, "God Save the King" (1 tune plus variants, 1 partial text)
Fuld-WFM, pp. 249-251+, "God Save the King"
DT, GODSAVE*
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "America (My Country 'Tis of Thee)" (tune)
SAME TUNE:
Heil Dir in Siegerkranz
O Deus Optime (cf. Chappell/Wooldridge II, p. 195)
America (My Country 'Tis of Thee) (File: RJ19006)
My Country (Greenway-AFP, pp. 88-89)
God Save the King (The King He Had a Date) (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 115)
My Country's Tired of Me (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 159)
Can Opener, 'Tis of Thee (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 159)
Our Land Is Free (celebrating the end of transportation to Van Diemen's Land) (Robert Hughes, _The Fatal Shore_, p. 572)
Notes: This, obviously, has never been a true popular or traditional tune.
Given the number of songs derived from it, as well as the parodies (e.g. "The King he had a date, He stayed out very late, He was the King. The Queen she paced the floor, She paced till half past four, She met him at the door, God save the King"), it seems to me that it belongs here.
Fuld tells an interesting anecdote showing that this was once a political song. As first printed, the opening line read "God save our Lord the King." When Bonnie Prince Charlie landed in 1745, this was hastily amended to "God Save great GEORGE our King" -- with "George" printed in large type.
The phrase "God Save the King" is officially listed as Biblical (1 Sam. 10:24, 1 Kings 1:25, 34, 39, 2 Kings 11:12, 2 Ch. 23:11, etc.). One has to note that this is an inaccurate translation in the King James version, leading to the speculation that the acclamation actually predates the KJV. The Hebrew phrase correctly translates as "let the King live," and so is rendered "Long live the King" in almost all modern Bible translations. - RBW
File: ChWII194

---

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Instructions

The Ballad Index Copyright 2003 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 03:00 AM

I had heard on a classical music programms that it was actually composed by a German. Of course, I have long since forgotten the name of the alleged composer. I hope it's true - that sort of irony would appeal to me. Sorcha seems more likely to be right though. I bet we will hear more on this subject!

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Quee
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 04:09 AM

Sorcha's story(the French origin, passed on to the old Pretender and entering Britain with the Jacobites in 1745) seems inherently unlikely.Given the undoubted popularity of the song in London(as an anti-Jacobite rabble-rouser) in October 1745; and also given the fact that Bonnie Prince Charlie's army didnt even get into England till the middle of November:the time scale seems too compressed. Are we to believe that a speedy horeman dashed ahead of the rebel army carrying the Jacobite song, arriving in London in say August, and that the song was hi-jacked by the loyal Hanoverians and turned round politically and made into an almighty hit by October? It's possible, but it all seems to be a bit far-fetched. Particularly as there is plenty of evidence( though perhaps not totally conclusive) that the song was sung in England from 1740.The publication of the song c1742 in London is often quoted, but the date of that particular song book could be a few years out, apparently(or so I have read). All "facts" about this song have a habit of shimmering and changing when you look at them closely. Except the undeniable one(??) that it was well up and running in October 45 in England.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 05:20 AM

Oh, the ignominy! Our National Anthem composed by a Frenchman! (Well, maybe he was Italian, which would be an improvement.) Compared to most NAs, it's a wimpish sort of thing: Confound their politcs/Frustrate their knavish tricks ... none of that gory militaristic stuff you get in The Marseillaise or The Star-spangled Banner! Curious: we don't have an officialy sanctioned NA, nor an officially sanctioned National Flag, and we don't celebrate our National Saint's Day (in England, at any rate). I think it's because we've never felt it necessary to remind ourselves of our place in the world and the Grand Scheme of Things; it's what being British (read English!) means: simply knowing we're superior without having to flaunt it or make a pretence of it. We simply go around evicting whole peoples from their native lands, a régime change here, a cultural extinction there ... And it's not xenophobia, we do it at home too.

Oh dear, I think I'd better go and lie down for a bit ...

Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 07:43 AM

It's been attributed to all sorts over the years. In 1859, Chappell discussed a series of claims (Popular Music of the Olden Time, pp. 691-707) dismissing some as untenable and leaving the question open, though rather inclining, it seems, to Dr John Bull rather than Henry Carey (later commentators have been less kind on the subject of Carey's claim, actually made some 50 years after his death by his son George, who was hoping for a state pension). Lully is dismissed, as the story came, not from a contemporary history, but from a much later novel purporting to be a mémoire.

The Oxford Companion to Music points out that the tune is a Galliard, and examines the way in which such pieces were typically constructed, together with various musical parallels in other pieces. It concludes, "It is probably a late seventeenth- to mid eighteenth-century recasting of folk-tune and plainsong elements... It seems as though there were certain phrases that drifted from tune to tune and found themselves a part of galliards during the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, of minuets during the later seventeenth century, of carols, and at last of a widely accepted patriotic song... If any attribution is necessary for song-books, the word 'traditional' seems to be the only one possible, or, perhaps, Traditional; earliest known version by John Bull, 1562-1628."

I should think that the current edition of Groves Dictionary would have as accurate a summary of the question as would be available.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen
From: MudGuard
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:59 AM

Sorcha, there might be a difference between google.de and google.com - whenever I go to google.com I get redirected to google.de - I do not know how they do it, only that they do it...

MudGuard/Andy

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 11:12 AM

Strange that so many interesting words have been written about a dull tune with rotten words!

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 02:34 AM

Anybody have the French song, or the German lyrics for "Heil Dir in Siegerkranz"?
It seems that there are so many conflicting stories about the song, that we'll never find its true origin. I always thought "My Country Tis of Thee" stole its tune from "God Save the King," but could it be they both got it from a third source?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 04:52 AM

From My Country 'Tis of Tee: Patriotic Melodies (Library of Congress), with bibliography, and links to sheet music, song sheets and sound recordings:

Although we know that Reverend Samuel Francis Smith wrote the words to "America" (also known as "My Country 'Tis of Thee"), the origin of the song's melody remains a mystery. And the history of its verses is even more complex.

The son of Henry Carey, a British singer-composer, claimed his father was the first to compose both the words and the music and introduced them in London in 1740 as "God Save Great George the King." However, Carey's son had financial reasons for making such a claim, and music historians argued it was more likely any such tune would have been based on a pre-existing melody.

Such an earlier melody, if it did exist, has been attributed to various seventeenth-century sources including the English composer John Bull, the French court composer Jean-Baptiste Lully, and even a military hymn from Switzerland. Although the tune's exact origin is not confirmed, it was printed in England in 1744 in the tune book Thesaurus Musicus.

The performance that led to the explosion in popularity of "God Save the King" took place in London in September 1745. Dr. Thomas Arne arranged the tune for a September 28, 1745 performance at the Drury Lane Theater and it was also performed at the Covent Garden Theater for several nights running. The song was intended to show support for the Hanoverian King George II, following the defeat of his General John Cope at Prestonpans, a battle that was the opening salvo in the war against "Bonnie Prince Charlie," his Stuart rival for the throne.

Before the music of "America" made its way to the United States it was played in many countries. By the 1790s the melody had become that of the Danish national anthem "A Song to be Sung by the Danish Subjects at the Fete of their King, to the Melody of the English Hymn." Eventually it also became the national anthem of at least six other places, including Prussia ("Heil dir am Siegerkranz" or "Hail Thee in Victor's Wreath"), Britain ("God Save the Queen") and Liechtenstein.

The first documented version of this melody printed in the American British colonies dates from 1761. The tune of "God Save the King" was used, in a slightly modified form, as the melody for the hymn known as "Whitefield's tune," published in Urania, a collection of sacred songs compiled by James Lyon and printed by William Bradford.

~Masato

Subject: Lyr Add: Heil dir im Siegerkranz
From: masato sakurai
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:22 AM

From HERE:

            Heil dir im Siegerkranz
Balthasar Schumacher, 1793 - nach Heinr. Harries, 1790 - nach...

1. Heil dir im Siegerkranz,
Herrscher des Vaterlands!
Heil, Kaiser, dir!
Fühl in des Thrones Glanz
Die hohe Wonne ganz,
Liebling des Volks zu sein!
Heil Kaiser, dir!

2. Nicht Roß und Reisige
Sichern die steile Höh',
Wo Fürsten steh'n:
Liebe des Vaterlands,
Liebe des freien Manns
Gründet den Herrscherthron
Wie Fels im Meer.

3. Heilige Flamme, glüh',
Glüh' und erlösche nie
Fürs Vaterland!
Wir alle stehen dann
Mutig für einen Mann,
Kämpfen und bluten gern
Für Thron und Reich!

4. Handlung und Wissenschaft
Hebe mit Mut und Kraft
Ihr Haupt empor!
Krieger- und Heldenthat
Finde ihr Lorbeerblatt
Treu aufgehoben! Dort
An deinem Thron!

5. Dauernder stets zu blüh'n
Weh' insre Flagge kün
Auf hoher See!
Ha, wie so stolz und hehr
Wirfst über Land und Meer
Weithin der deutsche Aar
Flammenden Blick.

6. Sei, Kaiser Wilhelm, hier
Lang' deines Volkes Zier,
Der Menschheit Stolz!
Fühl' in des Thrones Glanz,
Die hohe Wonne ganz,
Liebling des Volkes zu sein!
Heil, Kaiser, dir!

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 10:19 AM

The number of ditties that are sung in Germany to that tune are countless. Here is one recent (in historical times) example from the GDR (very unPC then):

Das verdankt der Proletensohn,
Mutter Sowjetunion,
Da staunt die Bourgeoisie,
Sowas gab's noch nie.
Aus uns wird einmal nichts,
Aus uns wird zweimal nichts,
Aus uns wird 3mal nichts:
Dank der Partei.

(roughly) The son of the prolet has to be thankful
to mother Soviet Union
and the bourgeoisie is amazed
for such a thing had not be seen before:
We are no success once
we are no success twice
we are no success three times
thanks to the party.

In Southern Germany, this tune is used freely for carnival ditties.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 02:36 PM

Hi, Wolfgang - I get a kick out of DDR memorabilia like that, since I spent two years spying on the East Germans.

Here's a somewhat longer version:

Heil Dir im Ziegenstall
Ziegen gibt's überall
Dank der Partei
Gestern noch Uhr geklaut,
Heute schon Kosmonaut,
. . . .
Dank der Partei.

Das verdankt der Proletensohn,
Mutter Sowjetunion,
Da staunt die Bourgeoisie,
Sowas gab's noch nie.
Aus uns wird einmal nichts,
Aus uns wird zweimal nichts,
Aus uns wird 3mal nichts:
Dank der Partei.

Wir sind in Gewi schlecht,
Wir haben niemals recht,
sagt die Partei... -

...from here (click)

---

I'm going to have to work a bit on the translation, but it starts out:

Hail to thee in the goat stall
There are goats everywhere
Thanks to the Party
Yesterday the clock struck (?)
Today a cosmonaut
... (missing line?)
Thanks to the Party

(and then Wolfgang's translation)

We are bad in Gewi (science??)
We are never right
So says the Party

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 07:58 PM

A suggestion Joe:

Gestern noch Uhr geklaut,
Heute schon Kosmonaut,
could be something like

"Yesterday we were still stealing watches
Today we're cosmonauts
Thanks to the party"

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:13 PM

Ah, yes, now I remember what "klauen" means. guess I've been in California too long.
Thanks, Snuffy.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 02:49 PM

I've promised Joe to look up the text of Heil dir im Siegerkranz, but, as usual ubiquitous Masato was faster. Unfortunately he refers to a faulty source, and so I think I'm entitled to give the official text as sung by my grandfathers, of the Hessian Division, R.I.P.

Looking through my grandfather's song books I find that the Imperial Hymn is of a very recent date, In the old books books before A.D. 1870 you'll wont find it; It seems to be spread widely only after the foundation of the 2nd Reich in 1871.
Nevertheless it is a lot older. It was written in 1790 by Heinrich Harreis (1762-1802) of Flensburg (thence a part of Denmark), in 1790, for the Danish subjects, to sing at the King's birthday to the tune God save the King.
In 1793 the song was plagiated by a certain G. B. Schumacher, of "very dubious fame", and published as his own work with a dedication to the King of Prussia, thence Friedrich Wilhelm II.
This change was, unfortuantely, better known after 1871. In the years before you won't find it in the German students songbooks; only after the happening in the Mirror Room at Jan. 18, 1871 it became widely spread and sung in Germany.
About the quality only one word: Schumachers stolen text in the 4th stanza Handlung und Wissenschaft = commerce and science is in Harreis's original Tugend und Wissensachaft = virtue and science
Masato`s link to the text leads to a text slightly faulty; here I give the formerly official text as it was sung in my grandfathers' times (both with te Hessian Army) R.I.P.

Heil dir im Siegerkranz

1. Heil dir im Siegerkranz,
Herrscher des Vaterlands!
Heil, Kaiser, dir!
Fühl in des Thrones Glanz
die hohe Wonne ganz,
Liebling des Vols zu sein!
Heil, Kaise, dir!

2. Nicht Ross' und Reisige
sichern die steile Höh',
wo Fürsten stehn.
Liebe des Vaterlands,
Liebe des freien Mann's
gründet den Herrscherthron
wie Fels im Meer.

3. Heilige Flamme glüh',
glüh' und erlösche nie,
fürs Vaterland!
Wir alle stehen dann
mutig für einen Mann,
kämpfen und bluten gern
für Thron und Reich.

4 . Handlung und Wissenschaft
hebe mit Mut und Kraft
ihr Haupt empor!..
Krieger- und Heldenthat
finde ihr Lorbeerblatt
treu aufgehoben
dort an deinem Thron.

5. Sei, Kaiser Wilhelm, hier
lang deines Volkes Zier,
dr Menschheit Stolz!
Fühl in des Thrones Glanz
die hohe Wonne ganz:
Liebling des Vols zu sein!
Heil, Kaise, dir!

And now what my dear friend and penny whistler MudGuard originally asked for:
In all my grandfather's songbooks as composer is noted Henry Carey, 1743, and the poet referred to is H. Harreis.
About the tune my source refers to:
1. Fr. Chrysander: in Jahrbücher für musik. Wissenschaft, 1863 and
2. Cummings: Musical Times, 1878.
At first I'll try to find the German Article; H.M. own subjects are kindly requested to look up the English reference in the British Library.
My wonderful source:
Friedlaender, Max:
Commersbuch / hrsg. u. mit krit.-hist. Anm. vers. v. Max Friedlaender.- 3., verm. Aufl. - Leipzig : Peters, [1911]

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 05:33 PM

Addition:
The tune composed by John Bull in 1619 does not sound unisimilar to that of Carey, my source says.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 13 Jun 03 - 02:33 AM

Beg your pardon - I spy faults again in my text:

1 and 6:
...
Liebling des Volks zu sein,
Heil, Kaiser, dir!

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 13 Jun 03 - 02:52 AM

MudGuard - Jahrbücher für musikalische Wissenschaft ; 1.1863
available at Munich in Bayerische Staatsbibliothek: Mus.th. 726, Mus.Z 98.16 [Repr.]
and Universitätsbibliothek: 0911/Z 36.
Musical times not available in Germany before 1904. At the British Library: P.P.1945.aa.

Gruß
Wilfried

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 10:56 PM

An additional quotation from Percy A. Scholes, ed., The Oxford Companion to Music, 10th ed. (1970, p. 411):

10. Various Untenable or Doubtful Claims. Claims that have been made for the composition of this tune by Lully and Handel and others (or even for its final arrangement by them) are not worth entering into here, as under examination they have been found to be vitiated by gross errors of date, etc. The claim on behalf of Henry Carey is equally untenable;.... The suggestion has been made that the first printed version ... is the work of James Oswald (q.v.), who may have been the editor of Thesaurus Musicus; this cannot at present be proved or disproved.

Scholes had researched extensively and written a book on this song: God Save the Queen!: The History and Romance of The World's First National Anthem (Oxford University Press, 1954; xviii+328 pp., with 25 plates).
      James J. Fuld, The Book of World-Famous Music, 5th ed. (Dover, 2000, pp. 249-50) wrote:

Chappell, p. 704, stated that the anthem was first printed in Harmonia Anglicana; inasmuch as no copy of such work had been found containing the anthem, it had generally been agreed that Chappell erred. However, a unique copy of Harmonia Anglicana has recently been found at the Library of Congress, and there is no question but that this volume precedes the volume retitled Thesaurus Musicus, previously believed to contain the first printing of the anthem. Harmonia Anglicana, "A Collection of ... Songs, Several of them never before Printed" (London), was apparently published in one volume, the anthem appearing on p. 22 in two stanzas only. A publication date between April 20 and Nov. 16, 1744, is probable. (See Plate II.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:41 AM

The King's Anthem [tune only], from Aird's Airs - A Selection of Scotch, English, Irish, and Foreign Airs, adapted for the Fife, Violin or German Flute (printed and sold by I.A. Aird, Glasgow, 1780?), at Richard Robinson's Tunebook.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Joe_F
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 06:23 PM

"All the brass instruments and big drums in the world cannot turn `God Save the King' into a good tune, but on the very rare occasions when it is sung in full it does spring to life in the two lines:

Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks!

And, in fact, I had always imagined that the second verse is habitually left out because of a vague suspicion on the part of the Tories that these lines refer to themselves.

-- George Orwell (1943)

I am glad to see that those lines go back pretty near to the beginning. Likewise the lines

May he defend our laws
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice, etc.

Fancy any other people on earth openly praying, in the presence of their sovereign, for divine intervention to make him mind his business!

The rhymes are pretty embarrassing, tho.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:27 PM

See Scholes' Appendix I (to God Save the Queen! pp. 284-307): "False Claims to the Composition of the Anthem--With Some Forgeries and Confusions," which Scholes says to be "the most comprehensive clearing ever attempted." Claims are debunked and disproved for Henry Carey, James Oswald, Anthony Young, Anthony Jones, Henry Purcell, Edward Purcell, a Dr. Rogers, Handel, Lully, 'the Saville-Hunter Forgery,' 'the Egregious Clark,' and so on.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 06:12 AM

Henry Carey composer of "God save the King"
In Jahrbücher für musikalische Wissenschaft ; 1.1863 the editor Friedrich Chrysander gives a lengthy article about the life and works of H. Carey. Here he cites a letter from a doctor to the son of the late H. Carey where he states that Carey had given the tune in question to one of his patients, J. C. Smith, asking to correct the general bass.
The song was written in 1743 originally not as a national anthem, but with only two verses as a parting song for king George when leaving for Germany to lead his troops in the war vs. the French. So the omitted second verse makes sense. By the way, the war ended with the splendid victory at Dettingen, and so English music owes this war two famous pieces: The National Anthem and the Dettingen Tedeum, by Händel.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 08:32 AM

Quoted from Scholes' God Save the Queen! (pp. 284-287):

             THE CLAIM FOR HENRY CAREY (c.1690-1743)

    This name has in the past been attached to the tune and poem of God save the King in many British song collections, and it is still often attached to the tune when this appears in American collections married to other words; moreover Histories of Music, and similar works on both sides of the Atlantic, have given Carey the credit for the song's composition. The latest edition of Carey's poems (by T.F. Wood, 1930) includes the poem of God save the King, and attempts to justify the inclusion. That poem was not, however, included in any collection of Carey's works published during his own lifetime--for instance, his Poems on Several Occasions (1713, 1720, and 1729, enlarged on each republication ), and his The Musical Century in One Hundred English Ballads (with music by himself; 1737, 1740, and 1743).
    Whence comes this widespread idea that Carey composed the words and music of God save the King? From his son, George Savile Carey, who in 1795 (i.e. more than half a century after his father's death) first put it forth, nothing having ever been heard of such a suggestion before that date. His object is not in doubt; he thought that by establishing a claim of this sort he might dig up a pension.
    Now G.S. Carey himself could have no possible memory of any of his father's doings; he never even saw his father, being a posthumous child. But he managed to throw together a flimsy body of evidence, based on hearsay, such as the following:

    I have heard the late Mr. Pearce Galliard, an able counsellor in the law, and a colleague of my father's, who died some time ago at Southampton, assert, time after time, that my father was the author of 'God save the King', and that it was produced in the year forty-five and six. (G. S. Carey, The Balnea, 1799.)

(Here G.S. Carey shows that he did not even know the date of his father's death, which, as above mentioned, was 1743.)
      Then he stated, with solemnity, the fact that in a collection of songs published in 1750: 'It precedes a song of my father's.' (But what does that prove? Every song in the collection except the last one of all had to precede some other song. It is a law of Nature!)
    The 'hearsay' above mentioned includes the statement that John Christopher Smith, Handel's old amanuensis, remembered Henry Carey coming to him 'with the words and music, desiring him to correct the bass'. This came via Smith's medical attendant at Bath, Dr. William Harrington, who added that he had again asked Smith, and that Smith had definitely confirmed the statement. He says, 'His advanced age and present infirmity render him incapable of writing, or desiring to be written to, but on his authority I pledge myself to its truth.'
    Now here is the testimony of an old man in an advanced state of decay (he died less than four months later) as to an incident alleged to have occurred over half a century before. The incident is not easily credible, since we can hardly believe that Carey, who had composed and published very many operas, cantatas, &c., could not effectively and correctly harmonize a simple melody like that of God save the King, which could be harmonized by any present-day musical schoolgirl who has had twelve months' instruction in harmony. Most likely Smith's memory had gone wrong: he was thinking not of Carey but of some other person who had brought to him some patriotic song to correct; or it may just be that Carey had discussed with him some other (and more elaborate) composition with loyal words, a composition that had now transformed itself in Smith's memory into God save the King.
    Carey published a number of patriotic compositions, and a similar suggestion of forgotten identity weakens the evidence of one or two people who, as has been alleged, told somebody or other that they had heard Henry Carey sing the song (as his own) half a century or more before. What they had presumably heard him sing was not this particular song but some other stirring patriotic effusion (Carey has one song, published in the Musical Miscellany, 1731, which actually ends with the words, 'God save the King and Queen': it may easily have been that which they heard).
    ...
    We do not know who composed God save the King, but we do know a number of musicians who did not and one of them is certainly Henry Carey....
    ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:55 AM

A slight objection to: Now here is the testimony of an old man in an advanced state of decay (he died less than four months later) as to an incident alleged to have occurred over half a century before.
It is not uncommon that unability to write doesn't go with forgetfulness. And a death less than four months later mustn't be an advanced state of decay.
I remember my late beloved grandfather, teacher of classic languages and a proved historian, who decided to die shortly before his 80th birthday, afraid of the honours the community would bestow upon him. Even on his deathbed he discussed historical problems with his visiting friends, and they were astonished how he had the facts present in a marvelous clear mind.


Wilfried

Subject: RE: God save the King parodies
From: Haruo
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 10:36 PM

The "King's late date" parody that I grew up with was

Queen Mary, so they say,
Had a dictating way
With old King George.
When Georgie had a date,
The Queen sat up to wait,
And if he came home late,
God save the King!

I think I'll start another thread to post the Liechtenstein national anthem, which uses the same tune.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:54 AM

Is it a wonder that Scots consider it the English National Anthem rather than British, when verse 5 is:

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen
From: chico
Date: 21 May 05 - 01:17 PM

But the rebellious scots represented only part of scotland following bonnie prince Charlie. Not all of scotland supported the Stuarts.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 21 May 05 - 03:09 PM

No, but try telling that to a London mob, or modern-day Scottish nationalists.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 03:15 PM

Speaking of which, the Queen of Canada (she is referred to as the Queen of England, etc, when she's there, but she's the Queen of Canada when she's here) is about fifty minutes away from Hinton right now. I can't be arsed to go see her. Nice of her to visit, however.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 05 - 03:21 PM

There were more Scots on the Hanoverian side at Culloden than the Jacobite.

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 21 May 05 - 03:58 PM

Yes of course, and I think it was really last of the Scottish civil wars, but would your average Londoner of the 1740s care?

Subject: RE: Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 05 - 07:28 AM

Not if he didn't have to march up there.