Make a killing from PRS?

Subject: Make a killing from PRS? (UK)
From: GUEST,Kris
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 12:09 PM

Hi - a friend of mine swears blind that a bloke he works for is coining it in by registering his own songs with PRS and then claiming for each time he sings them in PRS-registered venues.

Doing a search on PRS on mudcat turned up a lot of negative views on PRS - and seemed to imply that there was little money to be made this way anyway.

Friend says that bloke-he-works-with is getting about £1 per song per performance. That sounds very high!

Friend is now considering joining & registering his own self-penned songs so that he can claim for when he sings them at pub sessions.

I think it sounds a bit of a scam, and I don't believe there's the money there to be made for your average pub session/singaround singer - otherwise surely everyone would be doing it?

To settle the argument, can anyone tell me what the average rate is?

cheers

Kris

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 12:15 PM

I,reckon,your,mate,is,winding,you,up.
Not,sure,what,the,rate,is,
but,I,thinks,its,only,about5p,or,something,like,that.
they,have,a,website,=www.prs.org?

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: GUEST,kris
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 12:20 PM

cheers John,

I couldn't find the details on the website - but I also think its a total wind-up. But its bloke-he-works-with thats the winder & friend is the windee. I am just the killjoy that wants to burst his bubble (or save him £100 whichever way you look at it)

Kris

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: Pat Cooksey
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 02:40 PM

PRS distributions are done by computer and only pick up
performances at major venues, based on these payments a
general distribution is made once a year pro- rata, which
is supposed to cover minor performances, unless a song is
a hit or is covered by a major artist it is unlikely that
any payment will be made.

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: smallpiper
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 03:03 PM

My exwife and her band made a record back in the 80's it got quite a lot of air play on local radio and she (and each individual member of the band) got 75 pence per play. So he may not be winding you up!

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 03 - 03:05 PM

Pat - I have heard from this (admittedly dodgy-sounding) bloke, and read elsewhere, that they do process forms (list of songs performed on a given date) from small venues so long as they are countersigned by the owner of the venue (ie the payer of the PRS licence).

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: Pat Cooksey
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 03:44 AM

My comments concern live performances, radio and T.V. plays are
monitored in a different way, and the payments are much bigger.

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 05:57 AM

The EFDSS nonitored PRS returns some years back and concluded that only returns from the largest venues were included in the reckoning. Also so many traditional songs have been registered as "Arranged by" that even receipts from these go to the big names - eg any returns for "Scarborough Fair" will go to Paul Simon - even if Martin Carthy (who Paul got it from) sings it.

PRS is only in business for the top end of the music industry. At least these days there don't seem to be all the PRS salesmen trying to scare publicans etc into getting a licence. These guys were mainly freelancers working on commission who would try and convince people that a PRS licence was actually an entertainments licence and that without it landlords would get big fines. It's the local government PEL inspectors who have taken over from them these days !

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: GUEST,Weasel
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 08:31 AM

Dave - Are you trying to tell us that a pub/club does not need a PRS licence these days, We have just been visited by one of these rare salesmen advising that we may be liable for back payments for not having a licence for the past 5 years? And if the money is not going to the smaller writers pro-rata then PRS must be in breach of their own codes.

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: Nemesis
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 11:30 AM

I can only tell you from my recent PRS experience

Festival event I was organising (inadvertedly given the PRS form to fill out by the organisers). In the event I should have filled it out and they should have taken responsibility for the verification of what was played and by whom.

Anyway, the bottom line was that for a "pop" performance (anything other than classical which has a different rate) .. seating/sales capacities over £600 .. the PRS wants 3% on gross ticket sales. Below £600 it is a set fee of £25.

This is supposed to be paid even if the event is free, even if only one person is only performing one song which is copyright (even to them!) - however that one person isn't going to get the £25 .. and the assessment of quite how much is due is made after the event by the PRS. So, you could think you could get away with performing TRad material and uncopyrighted material .. yet it might be copyright and chargeable!

It is is a criminal offence to perform Happy Birthday without paying PRS fees as it is still in copyright.

Pubs, clubs etc I gather pay a PRS fee for broadcasting music .. which rises when live music is played. I did see during the License Bill debate that a pub in Nottingham had been advised that their PRS tariff was to rise by 50% because they were now starting to put on Live music.

It's a ruddy great scam .. and I predict that once the License Bill goes through that with a database of venues' licenseable activities operating plans (and including temporary venues) that not only will venues and events be clamped down upon to make sure they are all paying (it is a crininal offence not to) - but also temporary event applications will require a 1) the Temporary event notice £20 + 2) a PRS form .. which will be followed up by the PRS .. it's a license to print money by the PRS and small acts .. etc will lose, lose .. lose ...

Subject: RE: Make a killing from PRS?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 12:09 PM

I have never yet heard of anyone being fined for performing standard folk club material. The PRS are usually only interested in selling you a license. In the case of most songs where the origin is somewhat hazy anyway, it would probably cost the PRS too much to fight a case that they might loose anyway. Obviously high profile popular songs would be a different matter, but I don't think that they'd chance a prosecution based on the performance of a traditional version of "Scarborough Fair" or even "Happy Birthday".