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Origins: Musha ringum duram da...

DigiTrad:
GILGARRY MOUNTAIN (There's whiskey in the jar)
WHISKEY, YOU'RE THE DIVIL


Related threads:
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(origins) Origins: Whiskey In The Jar (164)
Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' (72)
Whiskey in the Jar by the young fellow (2)
Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian? (60)
Lyr Req: Whisky in the Jar parody (10)
Whiskey in the Jar (36)
Lyr Req: Whisky in Jar, Jug of Punch (23)
Lyr Req: Scriptures on the wall (2)
Lyr Req: Tequila in the jar (8)
Lyr Req: Bold Lovell (6)
Lord, There's alot of Whiskey in the jar (19)
Why is Whisky In The Jar... (32)
Whiskey in the Jar (12)
Tune Req: Whisky in the Jar (4)
Gilgarry Mountain a/k/a Whiskey in the Jar (14)
Lyr Req: Whiskey in the Jar (2) (closed)


highwater 27 Jun 03 - 07:35 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Jun 03 - 07:43 PM
Naemanson 27 Jun 03 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,Q 27 Jun 03 - 08:40 PM
Malcolm Douglas 27 Jun 03 - 08:42 PM
Amos 27 Jun 03 - 10:21 PM
CRANKY YANKEE 28 Jun 03 - 12:18 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 05 - 04:56 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Mar 05 - 05:15 AM
Big Tim 19 Mar 05 - 05:47 AM
Dave Hanson 19 Mar 05 - 05:47 AM
Jeremiah McCaw 19 Mar 05 - 06:17 AM
Big Tim 19 Mar 05 - 09:53 AM
Big Tim 19 Mar 05 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Mike 24 Sep 05 - 10:46 PM
GUEST,Len Wallace 24 Sep 05 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 25 Sep 05 - 03:27 AM
GUEST 04 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM
GUEST 04 Jan 06 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn 05 Jan 06 - 04:27 AM
s&r 05 Jan 06 - 04:54 AM
Tannywheeler 05 Jan 06 - 10:58 AM
GUEST 23 Feb 06 - 01:04 AM
GUEST,J C 23 Feb 06 - 04:35 AM
Windsinger 23 Feb 06 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,HughM 23 Feb 06 - 08:05 AM
Paul Burke 23 Feb 06 - 08:39 AM
Windsinger 23 Feb 06 - 09:28 AM
Arnie 23 Feb 06 - 10:25 AM
Windsinger 23 Feb 06 - 02:21 PM
Brían 23 Feb 06 - 05:43 PM
Malcolm Douglas 23 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Joe_F 23 Feb 06 - 09:07 PM
Paul Burke 24 Feb 06 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,krazymummy 10 Jun 06 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Duane 16 Oct 06 - 08:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Oct 06 - 09:53 PM
Amos 17 Oct 06 - 02:12 AM
Bernard 17 Oct 06 - 06:52 AM
Dave Hanson 17 Oct 06 - 06:54 AM
Bernard 17 Oct 06 - 06:57 AM
Paul Burke 17 Oct 06 - 07:11 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Oct 06 - 03:27 PM
Bernard 18 Oct 06 - 01:55 PM
Greg B 18 Oct 06 - 03:03 PM
slowerairs 18 Oct 06 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,Ms.Amy 19 Jan 07 - 01:48 AM
Gurney 19 Jan 07 - 02:24 AM
Jim Lad 19 Jan 07 - 03:03 AM
Declan 19 Jan 07 - 04:23 PM
Gurney 19 Jan 07 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 19 Jan 07 - 11:10 PM
GUEST,meself 19 Jan 07 - 11:35 PM
Gurney 20 Jan 07 - 03:05 AM
Declan 20 Jan 07 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,meself 20 Jan 07 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,Bardan 20 Jan 07 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,periko 02 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 02 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM
PoppaGator 03 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 03 Jul 07 - 04:59 PM
PoppaGator 03 Jul 07 - 05:18 PM
GUEST,FINGON 25 Nov 07 - 09:52 AM
Big Phil 25 Nov 07 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,mickey the mope 06 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM
Dave Hanson 07 Aug 08 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Aug 08 - 03:59 AM
PoppaGator 07 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 07 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM
PoppaGator 07 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM
Dave Hanson 08 Aug 08 - 02:14 AM
PoppaGator 08 Aug 08 - 02:43 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Robert Andrew Jaffray 29 Oct 08 - 11:58 AM
GUEST 11 Nov 08 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,JTT 12 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,VOlgadon 12 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM
GUEST 13 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Nov 08 - 10:08 AM
meself 13 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM
trevek 13 Nov 08 - 04:57 PM
Big Elk 14 Nov 08 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,an aussie muso 28 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Roy 18 Feb 09 - 02:39 PM
GUEST 31 Dec 09 - 09:25 AM
GUEST 12 Feb 10 - 12:52 AM
GUEST,Denisha Shae 07 Mar 10 - 12:40 PM
MartinRyan 08 Mar 10 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Jay 22 Mar 10 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,justjosh 16 Jun 10 - 02:30 AM
GUEST,Brian McGuire 22 Sep 10 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Zero 29 Dec 10 - 10:33 PM
GUEST,kiwipunk 17 Jan 11 - 10:58 PM
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GUEST,3m 06 Jun 12 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,bmwwxman 01 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Gary 22 Feb 14 - 11:53 AM
Lighter 22 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM
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mayomick 21 Dec 17 - 07:52 AM
Thompson 21 Dec 17 - 05:38 PM
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Thompson 23 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM
mayomick 23 Dec 17 - 07:48 AM
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mayomick 23 Dec 17 - 08:47 AM
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Subject: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: highwater
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:35 PM

Can anyone help translate this phrase from "Whiskey In The Jar"

"Musha ringum duram da
Whack fol de daddy-o..."

Any insight would be greatly appreciated, Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:43 PM

One mate of mine postulates that maybe at one point there might have been a gaelic 'chorus' of sorts that over the years got missheard and missheard, untill only the above goobledy-gook remains....

as interesting a theory as I've heard to try and explain it...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:50 PM

I've always wondered about this question myself and have thought as your friend does, Clinton. I will track this thread to see what happens.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 08:40 PM

Four copies in Bodleian Library, about 1850. All have the chorus as a single line,
Musha ring a ding a ra.

Four copies in American memory, about 1860. All have a four-line chorus,
Rack fal de ra
Rack fal de raddy, O
Rack fal de raddy, O
There's whiskey in the jar.

Warner Coll. (from thread 3116, Gilgarrah Mountain, posted by Liam's Brother)
Musha ringum durum da
Wack fol the daddy O (2X)
There's whiskey in the jar

I would guess (only that) that the chorus was a nonsense rhyme from the beginning.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 08:42 PM

See the many other past discussions here on this and other similar topics, which contain a whole range of ideas from the sensible through the interesting to the completely ludicrous. Although in a few cases nonsense refrains can be traced back to something coherent (occasionally, but not necessarily, Gaelic; most musical traditions use such things) it's probably true that, in the main, what you see on the surface is all that there is.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 10:21 PM

Malcolm!!

A pleasure to hear from you!


A


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 12:18 AM

The answere to, "Mush-a ringum doorum da", is "I GUES-SH NOT"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:56 AM

I'm interested too


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:15 AM

roughly translated;-

We hate the English.
their women are ugly
and their men sexually abnormal


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:47 AM

"Musha" is a word of Irish (Gaelic) origin, "mhuise", "maise", "wisha", or,"amossa". It means something like: "indeed", "well, well", "is that so". Joyce used in "Dubliners" and "Finegans Wake" - "Musha, God be with them times", from the former.
(Source, A Dictionary of Hiberno-English, by Terence Patrick Dolan, Gill and Macmillan, 1998.

The word also appears in a number of the early songs of The Dubliners (music group).

Re "ringum, etc, I haven't a clue.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:47 AM

It's NONSENCE, like ' hey nonny nonny ' or ' whack fal the diddle '

Why do some people try to find deep meanings in nonsense rhymes ?

eric


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:17 AM

I'm a-thinkin' "eric the red" has it sussed. I think the technical term for such things is "vocables" which are just sounds; syllables or words that have no particular meaning but are characteristic of a language or dialect and used to fill out a rhyme or meter.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:53 AM

"Musha", or, "wisha", is not nonsense. It's from the Irish, má ea, "If it be so". It's an introductory exclamation or linking word in Hiberno-English. Because you don't understand something, doesn't mean that it has to be nonsense!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 02:18 PM

Typo above, should be "más ea", closer to "musha".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Mike
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:46 PM

IT is Port a' beul. These are nonsense sounds used to fill the melody of songs when musical instruments aren't available due to poverty or laws forbidding them. It's very common in Irish and Scottish drinking songs...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 11:29 PM

Heard the above explanations before. Both are acceptable depending on how many pints I've had and who I wish to impress. Remind me of a story . . . Last year I was performing with The Diggers in Ann Arbor, Michigan at a pub called Conor O'Neill's.

During our break we were approached by a trio who brought in their instruments and who complimented us on our performance. I asked them what kind of music they performed and they replied "Celtic". When pressed further they said, "Celtic traditional acoustic." I exclaimed, "Ah, so you play deedle-dee-dee music!"

They gave me puzzled looks. "Deedle-dee-dee?", one asked. "What s that?" And I told them that amongst those who sang in pubs, the more traditional performers were refered to as playing "deedledee-dee" because that's the way the music sounds to us, as in "deedle-dee-dee-dee, deedle-dee-dee-dee...". They understood.

Perhaps 50 years from now someone may claim that deedle-dee-dee" refers to Irish Gaelic terms for an instrumentalist. Who knows? But such an explanation would contain a tiny grain of truth.

Len Wallace


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 03:27 AM

I'm currently reading Frank O'Connor's "An Only Child" (1961). In it, he has his father saying to his mother "wisha, is it the way you want to make the child look like a convict"?

"Wisha" is a variant spelling of "musha". It was a real word, not a nonsense one. In present day Irish English there are thousands of words of Gaelic roots, the origins of which are now mostly unknown and forgotten.

I repeat, the fact that you don't understand a word doesn't make it nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM

im irish and speak gaelic, the chouros of that song is gaelic and means...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 10:32 PM

im irish and speak gaelic, the chouros of that song is gaelic and means...

It's good you have the Gaelic because you don't have the English.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 04:27 AM

Interesting that the Bodleian Libray 1850 source quotes "Musha ring a ding a ra". this is mush closer to some recognisable Irish.
As has been said, "musha" is probably "maise" (indeed/sure/certainly etc))
"ring a" could be "rince" (dance/dancing, pronounced "rinka") and "a ra" is "a rá" to say or be said as in the sentence "tá rúd eigin aige a rá" meaning "he has something to say", (literally "is thing some at him at a saying") .
Doesn't exactly translate the chorus I iknow, but at least we can see that it probably did start life having something to do with music, dance etc!
Slán! Dáithí


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: s&r
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 04:54 AM

Perhaps 'Musha' is used as 'to me (right fol lol...)' or 'with a' ..
The introductory phrase can have meaning - the following syllables may or may not

Stu


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 10:58 AM

When I see it written I hear it sung. The chorus ends, "...There's whiskey in the jar."   It's a party/pub song that's a long (repeated) invitation to have a(nother) drink. Seems like....Tw


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 01:04 AM

None of you have explained the meaning. Zero marks.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 04:35 AM

Musha - from amossa or mossa = well, well!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Windsinger
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 07:21 AM

Muise! ("Musha!") is commonly translated as "indeed!" or "Oh my!"

Two possible origins given, are that it's either a euphamism for Muire (Mary, as in "the Virgin") or a worn-down version of Má 's ea? ("is that so?")

It's got a lot in common with "wurra, wurra!" -- a phrase that's a lot harder to cough up an etymology for.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:05 AM

I saw "musha" written as "muise" (in the song "Peigin mo Chroi) and an Irish workmate told me it was an introductory word implying a relaxed attitude on the part of the speaker, so "well" would be the nearest equivalent in English.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:39 AM

wurra? How about mhuire, as in se fearr mo mhuire? I think that translates as this is my sorrow, but according to the online dictionary, muire means charge.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Windsinger
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:28 AM

You may have sussed it. :) "Mhuire, Mhuire!" does sound like "Mary, Mary!"

As for the meaning of the song title Se Fearr Mo Mhuire, that's tougher. Fearr -- two "r"'s, as opposed to fear (man) -- is a superlative meaning "better" or "preferable"; beyond that, you got me.

I have a friend who's a lot more fluent, I can ask him.

("Sorrow"/"sadness" is brón, BTW.)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Arnie
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 10:25 AM

I was told by a Volcan some years ago that it's actually from the Klingon and means 'Are those dilithium crystals ready yet?' The bit about There's Whiskey in the Jar was added by Scottie at a much later date.

Live Long and Prosper

Arnold Spock


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Windsinger
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 02:21 PM

(Note to self: stop trying to do HTML first thing in the morning. Second post in a bloody row that's gone wacky-format like that...)

Sorry for the eye strain, y'all.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Brían
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:43 PM

I believe the expression you are looking for is, 'Sé fath mo bhuartha, which translates to, "'Tis the reason for my sorrow." Buartha also means sorrow.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM

The song, as it stands, appears to have been written for the early music hall; and in Scotland (or even England), rather than Ireland (see various other threads on the subject); although it was evidently based on an earlier, Irish broadside song about a real event that took place in Ireland. That, however, did not contain the familiar chorus.

It may well be that the "cod-Irish" of the music hall song is based on a genuine Irish Gaelic phrase. That doesn't necessarily mean that it was understood as such by whoever wrote the song, or by their audience; or that whatever meaning the phrase may have had in other contexts is relevant to any examination of this particular case.

It's certainly interesting, though. The 19th century popular stage produced vast quantities of "Irish-style" songs, particularly in England and America, many of which included "cod-Irish" expressions and phrases. Some can reasonably be interpreted as deriving from real Gaelic; many more cannot, without very agile jumps of imagination.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:07 PM

"Musha" also appears in "The Night before Larry Was Stretched": "Then, musha! his colour turned white".

--- Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||: All men would be cowards if they durst. :||


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:55 AM

And also in any chip shop in northern england; musha peas.

Blame Sean McGuire for my spelling of the song name, that's how it is on one of his records.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,krazymummy
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:08 PM

WoW !!    ??


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Duane
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 08:05 PM

I have read many explanations for the origins of this line. It seems to me that perhaps it started as an old irish saying and indeed perhaps evolved into something else.
Whenever I play this song I explain to the audience that the chorus is irish for "No shit, There i was!" which may not be accurate but it sounds good to people who don't know any better.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:53 PM

What? Obviously brought back by some veteran of the first British invasion of Afganistan. He was clobbered on the side of the head which resulted in ringing therein, and he was explaining it to his Da - OK, forget it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 02:12 AM

The fact that "musha" has some possible meaning such as "Well...." does not mean that "musha ringum duram da" has any meaning at all, which I am willing to bet it has not nor ever had. "To me right fa la" begins with not one but THREE English words, all of which have clear meanings, and the whole means less sense than a cackle in a henhouse.


A


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:52 AM

'Musha' probably refers to the kind of peas sold by UK chip shops, 'ringum' indicates they take telephone orders, 'duram' is a miss-spelled kind of wheat used for making pasta...

So the whole thing is about fast food - just what people look for when they've partaken of whiskey from the jar...

Seems simple enough to me!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:54 AM

Duram is a city in north east England.

eric


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:57 AM

Oh yes... forgot about that. It's where the Pink Panther lives!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:11 AM

It's also the kind of wheat they make pasta out of.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:27 PM

Bull duram tobacco in the little cloth sack!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:55 PM

I suspect it's a cunning coded message from another planet...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Greg B
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 03:03 PM

My Grandma (from West Leigh, Lancs. nee Hamill) used 'musha!'
as her favorite expletive. Said often and with varying degrees of
emphasis. When I was old enough to understand such things,
it seemed to me that it was roughly the equivalent of 'shit!'
in American parlance, though properly more mild and ladylike,
as she was loath to refer to excrement except as a 'jobbie.'

Her parents, from whom she presumably acquired it, were Welsh
and Irish.

Until this thread, I hadn't connected it with anything Celtic,
but she must have had it from her Irish relatives.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: slowerairs
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 07:04 PM

Musha, was a word regularly used by my mother and grandmother, usually when giving sympathy to someone. I only ever heard it used in that vein. Both were from Galway.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Ms.Amy
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:48 AM

Hmm.. well i'm thinking that this phrase probably did have a mean once... and maybe somebody somewhere still knows what they line actually said... BUT Seeing as most all who were to sing the song was Drunk off their sorry bums... i'm sure whoever picked it up and brought it elsewhere than where it was from probably misunderstood the slurrs.. of the irish or english or british or whoevers drunkin soul was singing the song.. My question is why do they sya Whack?? See here is the chorus :    Musha ringum duram da
            whack! for the laddie-O
            whack! for the laddie-O
          there's whiskey in the jar

And another question how is it sung? the tune i mean..


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:24 AM

I'll vote with Malcolm Douglas and Ms.Amy. I asked the same question about a different song of a long-ago flatmate who 'had the Gaelic.'
My chorus was 'Ban yu na mor iffen ghana, and the juice of the barley for me!'
After about 20 reiterations, John translated it as "The milk of the cow and the goat, and the...."


I wouldn't argue with someone who had five languages and two doctorates. Bloody useless with tools, but.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:03 AM

Actually, it's Inuit.
                     Ring, Dummado & Dummada are the three slowest dogs. Whackfolthedaddyo may be the destination. Not too sure what "There's Whiskeyinthejar" means. Could be a sled operator going the other way.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Declan
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:23 PM

Gurney,

Bainne na Mbó is na gamhna, means the milk of the cow and the calves -it is definitely an Irish (gaelic) phrase.

The phrase under discussion here is nonsense however.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 09:09 PM

Thanks, Declan. 37 years ago, now.
However, it occurs to me that this translation makes less sense than the other, since a man could drink cows and goats milk and whiskey, but couldn't drink calves milk. Only a calf could.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:10 PM

It means, 'Musha' = would you please, 'Ringum' = ringup or order or charge, 'Durum' = two rums, and Dah = Father or Pappy.

So the locquant in a nice way is requesting his sire to put up two rums.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:35 PM

Good one, sorefingers!

As for, "but couldn't drink calves milk. Only a calf could" - not necessarily: calves are remarkably gullible - it would be easy as saying, with some urgency, "Look over there!", and when the curley-headed little fellow does so, you snatch his milk right off the table, and Bob's your uncle ... (and he's off feeding the pigs) ...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:05 AM

Meself, you surprise me. Do calves REALLY eat at your table?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Declan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:37 AM

On reflection I think the line is actually "Bainne na mBó ins na gamhna" which means cows milk in the calves" - in other words - milk is for calves, I'll drink whiskey.

Gamhna definitely means calves, the word for goat is Gabhar, pronounced (sort of) like Gower, so close but incorrect.

Back to the thread ...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:07 AM

"Meself, you surprise me. Do calves REALLY eat at your table?"

I hold with the enlightened notion that animals are our equals if not superiors - not only do the calves, cows, bulls, sheep, horses and chickens eat at the table, but I wait on them hand and hoof. By the way, there's nothing they enjoy more after a hearty repast than a rousing chorus of Whiskey in the Jar ...

(The pigs insist on dining in separate quarters ... they have their own ways ... ).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:16 PM

I think if you play that song backwards, you'll find that the nonsense bit turns into 'hail satan, I offer unto thee bitten off bat's heads' or something.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,periko
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM

what a load of crap to ridiculize one serious question. i read an interesting interpretation on the "meanings"forum by patrick sheenan: "m'uishe rinne me don amadan" meaning... well... why don't you go there yourself if you 'd like to know... and about the origin: somewhere between the uk and the usa i'd guess; during a period of moral decay, anytime from 1499 'till 1899. most likely "knocked together" by some alcoholic would-be-outlaw male kaukasian illiterate singer-songmaker. red hair, blue eyes. paranoïd. iq ca 75 (can't tell jenny from molly). his enormous moodswings, fear of abandonment, leaning towards addiction and impulsive behaviour combined with blaming external factors for his awkward situation point in the direction of a borderliner avant la lettre.
"must you real dumb and do the madder" was his mantra, which he compulsively had to produce every minute of the day (night).

www.periko61.nl


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

Years ago, I performed that song frequently. Then, one fine day, a friend of mine, who was a radio announcer with a deep, stentorian voice, delivered the words as if he were reading them on the evening news - with gravitas and careful pronunciation. I was never able to see "Whiskey in the Jar" in quite the same way afterward.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM

Lots about "musha," not so much about "daddy-o"/"laddie-o."

I accept that it's a nonsense chorus, but I'd still like to learn how to pronounce and sing it "authentically," or at least closely enough not to embarrasss myself.

In my very limited experience of Ireland ~ a one-week visit four Augusts ago ~ I heard a few renditions of this old favorite, and no one performer pronounced these nonsense-chorus syllables exactly the same as any other. A trio I heard in Lisdoonvarna gave perhaps the most remarkable interpretation, featuring consonant sounds completely alien to the English language (which I surmise must have been Gaelic). My reaction was that anything I myself was unable to pronounce was very likely to be authentic, something I might do well to try learning.

This discussion reminds of a similar thread about the Mardi Gras Indians and some of their phrases, like "Jockamo fee nah nay" (or "fee on day," the preferred Ninth Ward pronunciation) and "Honda Wonda Yo Mama," etc., which may once have had literal meanings that no one knows any longer, and which may or may not come from French/African/Creole/Choctaw patois. No one has any firm answers, there is no one "correct" version, but a discerning listener can still tell the difference between a true insider's vocal performance and a poorly-informed imitator's.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 04:59 PM

I could be way off base, and invite contrarians to respond in case I am. However, having heard any number of Irish tunes with such syllables inserted into verses or ending them, I find it eerily akin to scat singing in the US - a sort of rhythmic extension of the piece, without using actual words.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 05:18 PM

TJ, you are entirely ON base; this is an example of singing "without using actual words."

I think that the only essential difference between "scat" and the kind of nonsense syllables found in this and many other folksongs is that the word "scat" usually refers to improvised passages, where both the syllables and the melody are made up on the spot for "one-time use," whereas a nonsense-syllable refrain is normally exactly the same (or essentially so, at least) at the end of each verse.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,FINGON
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 09:52 AM

BEN HALL OF AUSTRALIAN FAME IS THE HIGHWAY MAN FROM THE ABERCROMBIE MOUNTAINS MENTIONED IN THE FOLKSONGS, RESTING PLACE OF AUSTRALIAS LARGEST GOLD HEIST AND SECRET SONG , WHISKEY IN THE JAR . AT THAT PERIOD OF 1864 THE ABERCROMBIE MOUNTAINS WAS FAMOUS FOR BANDITS AND HIDING AREAS FOR ALL REBELS AND OUTLAWS OF THE OLD SCHOOL. MANY GAELIC FAMILYS OF THE WEST COAST OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND LIVED IN THESE RANGES. MANY CAPTIANS WHO WERE ALSO LARGE LANDOWNERS AND TROOPERS OF THE COLONYS STATE WERE FOR EVER TRYING TO GOVERN THESE PEOPLE WHO WOULD HIDE OUTLAWS AS IF THEY WERE FAMILY. BEN HALL WAS A STYLISH HIGHWAY MAN WHO WAS OFTEN IN FOLKSONGS OF THAT ERA. LEGEND HAS IT THE FORBES STAGECOACH GOLD IS HIDDEN IN A CREEK BED IN THE ABERCROMBIE BY HALLS GIRLFRIEND AND FAMILYFRIENDS. FACT OR FICTION!!! TO THE GROG SHANTY AND A ANOTHER WHISKEY IN THE JARRO, ME OLD MATES OF THE ABERCROMBIE MOUNTAINS? WHACK FOR ME DADDYO, WHACK FOR ME DADDYO!!! ANYWAY GOT TO GO, WHERE NOT ALL BUSH WHACKERS, SOME DO STAND AND DELIVER!!!???!!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Phil
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 10:16 AM

Its a fine song whatever chorus you prefer.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,mickey the mope
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM

My dear sainted grandmother from County Waterford always said "Musha, musha,musha" when she saw people kissing on tv.

I am now watching the movie Mary Poppins and in the carousel/hunt scene a hunted fox ( who is Irish) says "Oh Musha!" when he notices he is being pursued. After reading all the comments I am thinking that "Musha" means "Well!" or "Indeed!"

p.s. the movie is good as you remember


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:15 AM

Musha, it's gaelic for ' sensitol '

eric


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:59 AM

So musha is a Gaelic word, fine, as I think the principle in writing anything cod, is to use a word or two people associate with whatver it is you are parodying! ALLLLLL Irishmen use musha, don't you see. As for proper pronunciation, there isn't any!!!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

"Musha, it's gaelic for ' sensitol ' "

Thanks, Eric. I hate to betray my own ignorance, but what does "sensitol" mean?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM

It might be as productive to have a thread explaining the linguistic and philological origins of Louis Armstrong's scat singing.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM

There is an 1850 printing of the music hall version, referred to by Malcolm, on the Glasgow Broadside Ballads website. Just Google GBB and it should come up if you scroll down the first page a little.
It was printed by the Glasgow Poet's Box. the designated tune is 'The Sporting Hero' and the chorus runs:-

Mush a ring a do a da fal lal da do da addy
Mush a ring a do a da there's whiskey in the jar.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

That GBB version is pretty interesting; the verses are a bit different from most of the current-day ones I've encountered, but fit the familar tune just about right. However, the GBB's nonsense-syllable chorus doesn't scan/fit nearly as well.

I have no knowledge of "The Sporting Hero" tune. Might we assume that it's significantly different from the "Whiskey in the Jar" melody with which most of us are familiar today?

I'm reminded that my very first Mudcat post ~ under my real name, before I became PoppaGator ~ was about this song. It must be somewhere among those "Related threads" listed at the top of the page.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:14 AM

It's an old joke PoppaGator, there was a certain late folk comedian in the UK who used to say it about words that had no particular meaning, the word sensitol comes from a certain condom packet ' sensitol lubricated ' which itself is a bit meaningless.

eric


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:43 AM

Aha ~ "sense it all," indeed...

It occurred to me, when first watching Clint Eastwood's film Million Dollar Baby a couple of years ago, that the professional nickname his trainer/manager character gives to Hilary Swank's woman-boxer character ~ "Mi-coosh-la" {that's phonetic} ~ sounds quite similar to "musha" [ringum durum da]. Could there be a possible connection?

It's some sort of term of endearment, like "sweetheart," etc. Clint's character carries around an Irih-language textbook that he's studying, and the word is spelled correctly on the back of his boxer's green-and-gold robe. But I don't remember the Gaelic spelling, just the pronunciation...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM

Sorry about throwing in 'The Sporting Hero' red herring. It's actually just another broadside title for WITJ. What could be relevant though is that the WITJ could be the music hall title based on the earlier broadside title TSH hence designating the tune from the broadside version.
IMHO the words of the chorus on the GBB broadside fit well enough to the current tune if you slow it down to Denny Bartley speed. I would suggest that like many old songs the tempo has been much jazzed up for modern-day ears a-la Thin Lizzie.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Robert Andrew Jaffray
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:58 AM

I got this off the web...The words themselves have no meaning. An old singing tradition in Ireland is lilting, diddling or sometimes called mouth music. When the language and music were banned the Irish improvised the sound of instruments with their voice and lilting became an art. Many Irish and Scottish ballads written in English have some of these 'nonsense' words or lilts added. It is also akin to Swiss yodeling.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:20 PM

Steve in County Chatham

Me mum told me "musha" means donkey balls, but I'm not real sure on that one.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

While we're on the subject, what does Wop boppa loopa ba lop bam boom mean?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,VOlgadon
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

I thought music being banned was a bit of an urban legend.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

Didn't the Beeb ban the playing of Caledonia during the first swelling of Scots national feeling?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:08 AM

People are always claiming that such-and-such a thing has been 'banned' by somebody or other, but they never seem to be able to produce a shred of evidence. Such claims, though widely believed, are usually just old wives' tales; 'modern myths' if you prefer. I would be astonished if the BBC had ever 'banned' Dougie MacLean's innocuous song, though its adoption as a campaign song by the SNP may well have meant that it wasn't played much on air during elections. The BBC has a statutory duty to be politically neutral, and would have to avoid appearing to favour one party over another.

The comment 'Robert Andrew Jaffray' quoted was copied from a pseudonymous post to 'Yahoo Answers' (Phillipines branch, apparently) made by somebody who (in that particular case) didn't know what they were talking about. It may be that Robert didn't read much of this discussion before posting to it; but he certainly isn't alone in that, unfortunately. The internet is the most effective way of spreading misinformation ever devised: 'I got this off the web' is usually best read as 'Ignore the following'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: meself
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM

And it is curious that someone would suppose that some other, generic, site would trump this one on questions of folksong arcana ...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: trevek
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:57 PM

Poppagator, wasn't it Macushla? Yes, it means "My darling". Lots of songs with it in the title or chorus.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Elk
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:10 PM

The lyrics are easy to translate.

Drink 4 pints of Guinness followed by ½ a bottle of Powers.

The lyrics make perfect sense.

The challenge is in remembering the answer once you sober up.

Jokes aside the tradition includes mouth music, that is a collection of near random noises, to which people used to dance, perhaps with simple percussion at best. In Scot's Irish and English traditions perhaps some of the more obscure re occurring phrases could have their origins in this form.

Don't question it, enjoy it, it is what it is.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,an aussie muso
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

if musha is "if it is so/it shall be" it makes sense, i've been told "whack" is to have a drink for somebody ie toast, daddy-o means grandfather, so to lament the grandfather (after being caught with the booty), who probably taught son/grandson their wicked ways, makes sense to me.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Roy
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:39 PM

Gee....I am glad we got that all cleared up. And wish I had known the meaning of that before I recorded the song. Well, MUSHA !!!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:25 AM

So if the story's about his misses dobbing him in to the captain could it not be just "Wait for my daddy, oh, there's whiskey in the jar"?
Inviting him to wait and get hammered on the whiskey until the captain arrives?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:52 AM

karma?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Denisha Shae
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:40 PM

I looked it up and the phrase in fact does have a meaning... It's derived from the Irish language... Basically meaning "Whiskey for the fool", or "Whiskey for me, the fool".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:54 AM

Hi denisha

It would be a lovely story if true but I'm afraid.... it's not.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Jay
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:28 PM

M'uishe rinne me don amada - Whiskey made me a fool, or Whiskey made a fool of me.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,justjosh
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:30 AM

Here is a gem I found on another similar post:

"Musha ring um a do um a da" is very very similar sounding to these Irish words:
Musha => M'uishe (my whiskey)
ring um a => rinne me/ (rinne = past tense of "de/an" which is "do, make, perform, carry out, commit, turn out, reach, establish"; me/ = "I, me")
do => don (from "do" + "an" = "to the, for the")
um a da => amada/n (fool)

which translates to "I made my whiskey for the fool."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Brian McGuire
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:32 PM

The "Musha ring un do um a da" and the "Whack fol ma daddy-o (or laddie-o)" WERE originally Gaelic, they are just a phonetic pronunciation of the original Gaelic.
Now here's where you have to take it on faith; I KNOW that they are both originally Gaelic because I've seen the traditional lyrics both in a friends book of Celtic music AND on a folk song web site a couple years ago.
My memory is fuzzy but I think Declan had the first part right with "Bainne na mBó ins na gamhna" because I remember the original Gaelic looking absolutely nothing like the song sounds.
Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the web site I saw it on, so I might as well be telling you that I saw Bigfoot. I think I followed the link from a RenFest performers web site. If I can find it again I will post the link on here.

Cheers,
Brian


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Zero
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 10:33 PM

I'm going to take a shot at this. Take it with a grain of salt. All these people British or Cornish, Celtic or Cymric, engaged in word play of all sorts. Rhyming slang, double meaning, etc . . . they're singing in a language not their own, English. A lot of phonetics are in play. Not saying they were illiterate. Often people back in the day were more literate than people now, in many way. But you don't have to read music to come up with a song anymore than you have to be Shakespeare to write a poem. If you listen to a child pronounce a word without knowing the spelling it comes out a bit funny sometimes. Same as when Japanese borrow foreign words. Sometimes you have to get a little creative to get what the original word was. Remember even the Irish in the film Snatch had trouble understanding Brad Pitt's Pikey character. If you've ever hung out drinking with someone with a strong accent of any kind you know what I mean. So it isn't much of a stretch to turn 'Work For The Devil' into 'Whack Fal the Diddle'. Drink a few whiskeys, and "Must Have" quickly become "Musta" and finally "Musha". I'm not saying that's what it is. Remember when writing a song it doesn't matter what it means to anyone but the author, as long as it sounds good. The Melvins write unintelligible lyrics all the time. Maybe it means something to them, but they probably prefer that it isn't understood. John Lennon found out college professors had students analyze Beatle songs, so he put in more nonsense than usual, that's how you get I Am The Walrus. Could be a song about someone's mustache. Out of Boyo you get Boy. Someone said, Daddy-O means Grandfather. Makes sense to me, since O, just like Mc or Mac means Of, or Son Of. Here's the question... does he mean his real Grandfather, or Grandfather in a kindly was, or just some old fool? Wrap your head around that one. And then drink a couple of whiskeys and try to figure out the lyrics from a writer's perspective while switching between Gaelic, Brythonic & Alcoholic. You'll find all sorts of new meanings! ; )


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,kiwipunk
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 10:58 PM

im a kiwi of irish descent, my grandmother was from galway and a gaelic speaker, my grandfather was born here but had come from a long line of only irish, 7 generations in fact, im 9th.
he didnt really speak gaelic but he was a staunch republican and liked a drink with the lads, he said to me that 'musha rig darum do damada' is gaelic for 'oh well, i fucked up' and that 'whack fol de daddio' is 'drink to your fathers/ancestors' referring to those that died fighting the english, as the hero of the song is resigning himself to doing, now that he is an outlaw.
he actually asked my grandmother for clarification on that, she concurred saying its nonsense words but must have meant something like that originally, before getting mashed by non-gaelic speakers...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Johnimo
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 09:15 PM

I feel certain, being myself a lover of Mr. John Barleycorn, that the refrain in question, "Musha ringum duram da, Whack fol de daddy-o," and so forth refers explicity to the thrashing and processing of the barley, wheat, and other grains necessary for the production of the "Whiskey in the Jar." Once must confess however -- after all this analysis -- it's a mighty fine song, sure 'nuff.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,3m
Date: 06 Jun 12 - 09:31 AM

i always thought it was " put a ring on your finger ma da" "wait for my daddio" "wait for my daddio , there's whiskey in the jar o" sounds a reads so much better


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,bmwwxman
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM

The translation of the chorus is:

"This ought to keep you bloody Yanks scratching your heads for years to come"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Gary
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 11:53 AM

"Whack" is an old sailor's term for daily ration, which included all food and water, (and for a while, rum.)

If "daddy-o" could refer to the singer (as in "Come to Papa,) then "Whack for my daddy-o" might roughly translate to "I have all that I need, because there's whiskey in the jar."

As for the "Musha ringum ...," that's what brought me here.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM

Except that it's clearly "whack fol the daddy o."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 07:55 PM

Meaning of "musha ring dumma do dumma da" in the song "Whiskey in the Jar"

From:http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/topic82172.html

Post February 19 2009, 6:54 AM by CaoimhínSF

Muise (spelling varies) is an Irish expression of frustration with no actual meaning, but usually said at the beginning of sentences with varying meanings like "heck", "darn", "the hell with it", "f-word", or just "Aargh!".

I think it might be: Muise, rinne mé díom amadán. Means: F---, I made a fool [out] of myself.

Similar from: https://johnaffeymuseum.tumblr.com/post/102105659364/the-eiderhare-1-a-childs-charm-here-we-see-a

This is similar to several Irish folk songs in which seemingly nonsensical lines are arguably corrupted Gaelic. One such is Whiskey in the Jar, where the repeated line ?Musha ring dum-a do dum-a da? is likely a ?Hobson-Jobson? of the Gaelic ?Muise, rinne mé díom amadán? (?Damn, I made a fool of myself?), or similar.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 07:52 AM

If it does mean anything it would be more like a corruption of ?rince (rinka) do mo da ? I'd have thought . Dance to your daddy


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 05:38 PM

Má 'sea = If it be so

Ring dum a doorum da = mouth music of the kind that's used in singing all over the world, like the scat (skat?) in American black city music, like Cab Calloway's Hidey hidey hidey hi, hodey hodey hodey ho, heedey heedey heedy he, skiddly-boom skiddly-ba skiddly? umm, he loses me at that stage. But that's what it is. Vocal play, just for fun.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 06:03 AM

I'm not so sure,Thompson .Mouth music as sang in English language Irish songs could in some instances have been attempts at imitating the old gaelic. The first Google search entry for the song Juice Of The Barley For Me gives the chorus as:
" Singing banya na mo if an ganna. And the juice of the barley for me."
That's the way I always used to sing it thinking it was just mouth music .
Check out the Buttermilk Hill chorus as sung by Peter Paul and Mary:
Shule, shule, shule-a-roo
Shule-a-rak-shak, shule-a-ba-ba-coo
See this link for how the original Gaelic chorus became "splendidly mangled" :
https://mainlynorfolk.info/folk/songs/shuleagra.html


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

Yeah, but anyone hearing banya na mo etc will immediately recognise it as bainne na mbó is na gamhna (the milk of the cow and the heifer), and shule a roo as siúl a rún (go, my darling) and so on.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 07:48 AM

as I said , I didn't know that the "bainne na mbó is na gamhna" chorus meant anything until I started to learn a cupla focal . I grew up in England . How many in the Appalachian mountains would have immediately recognised that they were singing a corrupted version of siúl a rún? Had you asked some good ol' boy a hundred years ago they would   have said "'t'ain't supposed to mean nothing , just a bit a ol' time mouth music." I imagine so anyway lol!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:05 AM

When I moved to Ireland I heard a friend?s five year old singing ?Ta mamai is teach , duirt dadio ta mamai?s is teach? ( not sure if that?s the right gaelic, I still cant speak it ! ) . It was to the same tune as a football chant used to be sung in England.?We won the cup ee I addio we won the cup?The addio bit is ?daddio? as gailge ,the teach sounded like ?cup?. (It could be the case that the Irish kid?s song was taken from the English football chant by the Irish nianra , mind you .I?ve tried to find a link to the song Do you know the one I?m talking about?)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:32 AM

I don't, but it's "Mammy's coming, said Daddy, Mammy is coming" and it's really Tá Mamaí ag teacht. Unless it's Tá Mamaí san teach, or "Mammy's in the house".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:33 AM

Sorry, I mean "said Granddad" if it's Daideó.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:47 AM

talking about corruption, how come my apostrophes comes out as question marks?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:57 AM

I think it could be a case of gibberish made up to sound Irish , interspersed with real Irish words as heard by second or third generation Irish people. Which is not to say that some choruses aren't completely made-up .


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 09:00 AM

"Tá Mamaí ag teacht". Yes, that's what my friend told me it was at the time


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 07:08 PM

Regarding what appear to be nonsense words / choruses, there was someone in the North - Shetland? Orkney? Caithness? - a number of years ago who was singing what appeared to be a nonsense song/rhyme- till the right person heard him and realised it was a fragment of Norn, and the song was the remains of the ballad of King Orfeo.

I think there's details of this in John Purser's book (Music of Scotland?) , and I also think I heard Archie Fisher speaking about it on Travelling Folk many years ago -- -

I will take so long to seek out the information I am sure someone will be able to elaborate on this much sooner than I shall!

- However - sometimes the nonsense words are not actually so?!

(I can sing a number of foreign songs eg the Norwegian National Anthem, without having a clue as to what the words mean. I am quick at picking up and remembering songs by ear---some are from over 50 years ago.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Dec 17 - 05:12 AM

There's also a long tradition of mouth-music - nonsense syllables spoken fast or sung for the heck of it - in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 12:25 PM

something on what Gallus Moll wrote about the fragment the ballad of King Orfeo at the link below .......from the singing of John Stickle of Unst recorded in 1952 ...."Apparently Stickle himself thought the song to be something of a nonsense lyric and was totally unaware of its rarity."

https://mainlynorfolk.info/steeleye.span/songs/orfeo.html


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Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Y Garth
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:07 PM

Well, Captain Farrell would be English, so there'd be no point in talking to him with any sort of heavenly language. I've got something that seems to make sense to me (given the circumstances):

"Push your ring, dummer do, dumb or die."

That would be, "Shove your ring over here dumb person, remain dumb or you'll die..."

If you push your ring off your finger you hand is outstretched and in full view. If you pull your ring off your finger your hands are crooked and close to your body and may be concealing something, or may quickly grab a weopon from inside your clothing.

Roadside arguments, and pleas for clemency were the bane of a highwayman's life, hence silence was a requirement (in this case anyway). A dumber or dummer was a mute person in those days.


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