Origins: Musha ringum duram da...

Subject: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: highwater
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:35 PM

Can anyone help translate this phrase from "Whiskey In The Jar"

"Musha ringum duram da
Whack fol de daddy-o..."

Any insight would be greatly appreciated, Thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:43 PM

One mate of mine postulates that maybe at one point there might have been a gaelic 'chorus' of sorts that over the years got missheard and missheard, untill only the above goobledy-gook remains....

as interesting a theory as I've heard to try and explain it...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:50 PM

I've always wondered about this question myself and have thought as your friend does, Clinton. I will track this thread to see what happens.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 08:40 PM

Four copies in Bodleian Library, about 1850. All have the chorus as a single line,
Musha ring a ding a ra.

Four copies in American memory, about 1860. All have a four-line chorus,
Rack fal de ra
Rack fal de raddy, O
Rack fal de raddy, O
There's whiskey in the jar.

Warner Coll. (from thread 3116, Gilgarrah Mountain, posted by Liam's Brother)
Musha ringum durum da
Wack fol the daddy O (2X)
There's whiskey in the jar

I would guess (only that) that the chorus was a nonsense rhyme from the beginning.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 08:42 PM

See the many other past discussions here on this and other similar topics, which contain a whole range of ideas from the sensible through the interesting to the completely ludicrous. Although in a few cases nonsense refrains can be traced back to something coherent (occasionally, but not necessarily, Gaelic; most musical traditions use such things) it's probably true that, in the main, what you see on the surface is all that there is.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 10:21 PM

Malcolm!!

A pleasure to hear from you!


A

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 12:18 AM

The answere to, "Mush-a ringum doorum da", is "I GUES-SH NOT"

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:56 AM

I'm interested too

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:15 AM

roughly translated;-

We hate the English.
their women are ugly
and their men sexually abnormal

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:47 AM

"Musha" is a word of Irish (Gaelic) origin, "mhuise", "maise", "wisha", or,"amossa". It means something like: "indeed", "well, well", "is that so". Joyce used in "Dubliners" and "Finegans Wake" - "Musha, God be with them times", from the former.
(Source, A Dictionary of Hiberno-English, by Terence Patrick Dolan, Gill and Macmillan, 1998.

The word also appears in a number of the early songs of The Dubliners (music group).

Re "ringum, etc, I haven't a clue.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:47 AM

It's NONSENCE, like ' hey nonny nonny ' or ' whack fal the diddle '

Why do some people try to find deep meanings in nonsense rhymes ?

eric

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:17 AM

I'm a-thinkin' "eric the red" has it sussed. I think the technical term for such things is "vocables" which are just sounds; syllables or words that have no particular meaning but are characteristic of a language or dialect and used to fill out a rhyme or meter.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:53 AM

"Musha", or, "wisha", is not nonsense. It's from the Irish, má ea, "If it be so". It's an introductory exclamation or linking word in Hiberno-English. Because you don't understand something, doesn't mean that it has to be nonsense!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 02:18 PM

Typo above, should be "más ea", closer to "musha".

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Mike
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:46 PM

IT is Port a' beul. These are nonsense sounds used to fill the melody of songs when musical instruments aren't available due to poverty or laws forbidding them. It's very common in Irish and Scottish drinking songs...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 11:29 PM

Heard the above explanations before. Both are acceptable depending on how many pints I've had and who I wish to impress. Remind me of a story . . . Last year I was performing with The Diggers in Ann Arbor, Michigan at a pub called Conor O'Neill's.

During our break we were approached by a trio who brought in their instruments and who complimented us on our performance. I asked them what kind of music they performed and they replied "Celtic". When pressed further they said, "Celtic traditional acoustic." I exclaimed, "Ah, so you play deedle-dee-dee music!"

They gave me puzzled looks. "Deedle-dee-dee?", one asked. "What s that?" And I told them that amongst those who sang in pubs, the more traditional performers were refered to as playing "deedledee-dee" because that's the way the music sounds to us, as in "deedle-dee-dee-dee, deedle-dee-dee-dee...". They understood.

Perhaps 50 years from now someone may claim that deedle-dee-dee" refers to Irish Gaelic terms for an instrumentalist. Who knows? But such an explanation would contain a tiny grain of truth.

Len Wallace

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 03:27 AM

I'm currently reading Frank O'Connor's "An Only Child" (1961). In it, he has his father saying to his mother "wisha, is it the way you want to make the child look like a convict"?

"Wisha" is a variant spelling of "musha". It was a real word, not a nonsense one. In present day Irish English there are thousands of words of Gaelic roots, the origins of which are now mostly unknown and forgotten.

I repeat, the fact that you don't understand a word doesn't make it nonsense.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM

im irish and speak gaelic, the chouros of that song is gaelic and means...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 10:32 PM

im irish and speak gaelic, the chouros of that song is gaelic and means...

It's good you have the Gaelic because you don't have the English.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 04:27 AM

Interesting that the Bodleian Libray 1850 source quotes "Musha ring a ding a ra". this is mush closer to some recognisable Irish.
As has been said, "musha" is probably "maise" (indeed/sure/certainly etc))
"ring a" could be "rince" (dance/dancing, pronounced "rinka") and "a ra" is "a rá" to say or be said as in the sentence "tá rúd eigin aige a rá" meaning "he has something to say", (literally "is thing some at him at a saying") .
Doesn't exactly translate the chorus I iknow, but at least we can see that it probably did start life having something to do with music, dance etc!
Slán! Dáithí

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: s&r
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 04:54 AM

Perhaps 'Musha' is used as 'to me (right fol lol...)' or 'with a' ..
The introductory phrase can have meaning - the following syllables may or may not

Stu

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 10:58 AM

When I see it written I hear it sung. The chorus ends, "...There's whiskey in the jar."   It's a party/pub song that's a long (repeated) invitation to have a(nother) drink. Seems like....Tw

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 01:04 AM

None of you have explained the meaning. Zero marks.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 04:35 AM

Musha - from amossa or mossa = well, well!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Windsinger
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 07:21 AM

Muise! ("Musha!") is commonly translated as "indeed!" or "Oh my!"

Two possible origins given, are that it's either a euphamism for Muire (Mary, as in "the Virgin") or a worn-down version of Má 's ea? ("is that so?")

It's got a lot in common with "wurra, wurra!" -- a phrase that's a lot harder to cough up an etymology for.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:05 AM

I saw "musha" written as "muise" (in the song "Peigin mo Chroi) and an Irish workmate told me it was an introductory word implying a relaxed attitude on the part of the speaker, so "well" would be the nearest equivalent in English.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:39 AM

wurra? How about mhuire, as in se fearr mo mhuire? I think that translates as this is my sorrow, but according to the online dictionary, muire means charge.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Windsinger
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:28 AM

You may have sussed it. :) "Mhuire, Mhuire!" does sound like "Mary, Mary!"

As for the meaning of the song title Se Fearr Mo Mhuire, that's tougher. Fearr -- two "r"'s, as opposed to fear (man) -- is a superlative meaning "better" or "preferable"; beyond that, you got me.

I have a friend who's a lot more fluent, I can ask him.

("Sorrow"/"sadness" is brón, BTW.)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Arnie
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 10:25 AM

I was told by a Volcan some years ago that it's actually from the Klingon and means 'Are those dilithium crystals ready yet?' The bit about There's Whiskey in the Jar was added by Scottie at a much later date.

Live Long and Prosper

Arnold Spock

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Windsinger
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 02:21 PM

(Note to self: stop trying to do HTML first thing in the morning. Second post in a bloody row that's gone wacky-format like that...)

Sorry for the eye strain, y'all.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Brían
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:43 PM

I believe the expression you are looking for is, 'Sé fath mo bhuartha, which translates to, "'Tis the reason for my sorrow." Buartha also means sorrow.

Brían

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM

The song, as it stands, appears to have been written for the early music hall; and in Scotland (or even England), rather than Ireland (see various other threads on the subject); although it was evidently based on an earlier, Irish broadside song about a real event that took place in Ireland. That, however, did not contain the familiar chorus.

It may well be that the "cod-Irish" of the music hall song is based on a genuine Irish Gaelic phrase. That doesn't necessarily mean that it was understood as such by whoever wrote the song, or by their audience; or that whatever meaning the phrase may have had in other contexts is relevant to any examination of this particular case.

It's certainly interesting, though. The 19th century popular stage produced vast quantities of "Irish-style" songs, particularly in England and America, many of which included "cod-Irish" expressions and phrases. Some can reasonably be interpreted as deriving from real Gaelic; many more cannot, without very agile jumps of imagination.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:07 PM

"Musha" also appears in "The Night before Larry Was Stretched": "Then, musha! his colour turned white".

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: All men would be cowards if they durst. :||

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:55 AM

And also in any chip shop in northern england; musha peas.

Blame Sean McGuire for my spelling of the song name, that's how it is on one of his records.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,krazymummy
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:08 PM

WoW !!    ??

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Duane
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 08:05 PM

I have read many explanations for the origins of this line. It seems to me that perhaps it started as an old irish saying and indeed perhaps evolved into something else.
Whenever I play this song I explain to the audience that the chorus is irish for "No shit, There i was!" which may not be accurate but it sounds good to people who don't know any better.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:53 PM

What? Obviously brought back by some veteran of the first British invasion of Afganistan. He was clobbered on the side of the head which resulted in ringing therein, and he was explaining it to his Da - OK, forget it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 02:12 AM

The fact that "musha" has some possible meaning such as "Well...." does not mean that "musha ringum duram da" has any meaning at all, which I am willing to bet it has not nor ever had. "To me right fa la" begins with not one but THREE English words, all of which have clear meanings, and the whole means less sense than a cackle in a henhouse.


A

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:52 AM

'Musha' probably refers to the kind of peas sold by UK chip shops, 'ringum' indicates they take telephone orders, 'duram' is a miss-spelled kind of wheat used for making pasta...

So the whole thing is about fast food - just what people look for when they've partaken of whiskey from the jar...

Seems simple enough to me!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:54 AM

Duram is a city in north east England.

eric

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:57 AM

Oh yes... forgot about that. It's where the Pink Panther lives!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:11 AM

It's also the kind of wheat they make pasta out of.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:27 PM

Bull duram tobacco in the little cloth sack!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:55 PM

I suspect it's a cunning coded message from another planet...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Greg B
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 03:03 PM

My Grandma (from West Leigh, Lancs. nee Hamill) used 'musha!'
as her favorite expletive. Said often and with varying degrees of
emphasis. When I was old enough to understand such things,
it seemed to me that it was roughly the equivalent of 'shit!'
in American parlance, though properly more mild and ladylike,
as she was loath to refer to excrement except as a 'jobbie.'

Her parents, from whom she presumably acquired it, were Welsh
and Irish.

Until this thread, I hadn't connected it with anything Celtic,
but she must have had it from her Irish relatives.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: slowerairs
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 07:04 PM

Musha, was a word regularly used by my mother and grandmother, usually when giving sympathy to someone. I only ever heard it used in that vein. Both were from Galway.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Ms.Amy
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:48 AM

Hmm.. well i'm thinking that this phrase probably did have a mean once... and maybe somebody somewhere still knows what they line actually said... BUT Seeing as most all who were to sing the song was Drunk off their sorry bums... i'm sure whoever picked it up and brought it elsewhere than where it was from probably misunderstood the slurrs.. of the irish or english or british or whoevers drunkin soul was singing the song.. My question is why do they sya Whack?? See here is the chorus :    Musha ringum duram da
            whack! for the laddie-O
            whack! for the laddie-O
          there's whiskey in the jar

And another question how is it sung? the tune i mean..

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:24 AM

I'll vote with Malcolm Douglas and Ms.Amy. I asked the same question about a different song of a long-ago flatmate who 'had the Gaelic.'
My chorus was 'Ban yu na mor iffen ghana, and the juice of the barley for me!'
After about 20 reiterations, John translated it as "The milk of the cow and the goat, and the...."


I wouldn't argue with someone who had five languages and two doctorates. Bloody useless with tools, but.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:03 AM

Actually, it's Inuit.
                     Ring, Dummado & Dummada are the three slowest dogs. Whackfolthedaddyo may be the destination. Not too sure what "There's Whiskeyinthejar" means. Could be a sled operator going the other way.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Declan
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:23 PM

Gurney,

Bainne na Mbó is na gamhna, means the milk of the cow and the calves -it is definitely an Irish (gaelic) phrase.

The phrase under discussion here is nonsense however.