Guitar Playability Question

Subject: Guitar Playability Question
From: Vixen
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 08:17 AM

D'Cats--

I'd be willing to bet this has been covered before, but I have no idea which thread might answer my question...please excuse having to repost the info!

Here's the question: What factors influence a guitar's "playability?" (bearing in mind that the issues may arise from how I play...)

The Baby Taylor is sooooo easy for me to play--my left wrist isn't contorted, my left thumb doesn't go numb, and I can actually get into and out of Bm (and other barre chords) with reasonable comfort, speed and accuracy.

Compared to my Alvarez--where my wrist and forearm start to cramp by the second time through the Bm/E7/A sequence of Devil's Dream.

The action is higher on the Taylor. I've got Light strings on both instruments. The fret spacing is greater on the Alvarez. I'm sure it's probably a combination of these things and others I don't have a clue about...any ideas?

Thanks, as always, for your expertise!

V

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 08:50 AM

Guitar Playability is, of course subjective, to a point. The width and shape of the fingerboard - the depth of th neck - the scale of the neck (that is the distance between the frets) - the height and weight of the strings - are probably te most important variables for the 'feel' of a particular guitar.

Your Baby Taylor has a different scale from your Alvarez, assuming the Alvarez is full size - that will make a significant difference. I would also bet the width is different - these two things alone could expalin the Taylor's feel being more attractive to you (smaller scale, a little less width can make it easier for a small hand to get around).

A guitar neck ought to fit the player's hand. The whole thing is very subjective!

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 11:18 AM

Also, if you have the Baby Taylor tuned to standard the string tension is considerably less than on your Alvarez. The scale length of the Baby (22 3/4") is at least two inches less than on your Alvarez. That's why the strings on the Baby are easier to press down even though the action is higher. The string tension on a 22 3/4" neck tuned EBGDAE is about the same as a 25" neck tuned down a whole step (2 frets). Many players tune travel guitars up a step from standard to prevent excessive string excursion which may cause buzzing.   

Bruce

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 11:50 AM

As to your problem playing the Bm, E, A in Devil's Dream - why not capo up two frets and play Am, D, G ?

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 12:25 PM

I am going to be a real jerk here and give you the guitar teacher answer, which is not one you'll like--You may not be holding your hands or the guitar properly, and the Baby Taylor is OK to play simply because the strings are too light--

If your hand is cramping on the Alvarez, you should   reconfigure your wrist, arm, and fingers until you can do what you need to do without cramping--If your technique is good, you should be able to play basic stuff on most guitars easily (though you always have to adjust a little to accomodate the differences)--

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Vixen
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 01:54 PM

See, I knew y'all would know the answers!


Jed--Yup, the Alvarez is full-size. I'm going to take the measurements you mention of the Taylor (depth, width, etc) and compare them. The Alvarez (recent buzzing issues aside) WAS a comfortable instrument until I started trying to play barre chords. I still like its action. I'm just amazed that this little Baby is so easy to play!

Bruce--the lower string tension probably has a lot to do with it too...I thought the tension was the same because the string gauges were the same.

LesB--I may yet give up on Bm (and its ilk) and go the capo route. For some reason though Bm and C#m turn up in lots of the songs I play/write, so I'd really like to be able to do them without a capo.

M.Ted--I think what I actually *NEED* is a guitar teacher! I did take lessons (long ago) and while I liked my instructor and learned lots and lots, I realize now I didn't really learn *enough*. Now, I learn stuff from everyone I watch, but I haven't been able to figure out how to make barre chords without feeling tense and contorted. I suspect I need even more practice than I currently put in (say 30 minutes a day on average). Y'know, they're *my* fingers, they ought to do what I tell them, so they do, but they don't do it easy.

Again, thank you all!

V

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: KateG
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 02:00 PM

Actually, it may just be the Alvarez. I recently upgraded from a small-bodied (RF-20) Alvarez to a small-bodied Martin (000-15S), and it's like the world opened up. Leaving aside the tonal differences between the two instruments, the subtle differences in the shape of the neck and the action make an incredible difference. I was never able to master thumb over bass notes or barre chords on the Alvarez and an hour's playing left my fingers blistered under the calluses. Now I can do the barres and thumb overs, and I just spent 8 hours at a jam on Saturday playing the Martin, and my fingers are fine. No dents, no soreness, just a tired happy camper.

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Strick
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 04:14 PM

The 000-15S is one of the sweetest guitars on the market, but like the Baby Taylor, it's a shorter scale than I expect the Alvarez is. The neck shape is probably a big factor, too as the BT is extremely slim for an acoustic (like all Taylors) and there's something about fundamentally comfortable about the neck of a 000-15S. I have several guitars including a BT and 000-15S; the 000-15S and my Seagull Folk are my favorites for playability.

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 07:38 PM

Devil's Dream loses a lot when you play it capoed up in G.

Murray

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 08:03 PM

What makes barre chirds a lot easier is, if you strengthen your hand when you aren't playing. A foam rubber ball the size of a tennis ball is a good way to do that, and it really does make a difference. Just keep squeezing it between your thumb and fingers when you can.

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 08:40 PM

It also gains a lot, Murray. Try it this way (capoed 2nd of course):

| G G | G G | Am C/B | C D7 | G G | G G | Am C | D7 G |

-same progression for both A and B parts, of course, though you might want to vary it on the B part by walking down to an Em chord on the 2nd and 5th bars.

As regards the playability of the 2 guitars question, my money is on the "different scale length=different tension" culprit. Also, Vixen, what is the difference in neck width and thickness beteen the two? Maybe the Alvarez's neck is too thick for your hands.

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 09:17 PM

On the other hand, "Devil's Dream" is the world's worst fiddle tune! As such, you are well within your rights to just refuse to play it! That'd solve the whole problem, wouldn't it?

Bruce

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 09:19 PM

I think you're confusing "Devil's Dream" with "Orange Blossom Special", Bruce. "Satan's Nightmare" still rocks!

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 09:57 PM

Tossup between OBS and Devil Went Down to Georgia. Which isn't even a tune, but you will get threatening requests for both in THOSE kinds of places.

Vicky, just because you like the Taylor better today, don't mean squat. You will still have "Alvarez days", or weeks or months. I dunno, sometimes you want the little guitar, sometimes the big guitar. But on your inevitable next shopping trip, you might find a big guitar that's more comfy to play... and there you'll be, broke again and loving it.

;)=

Willie-O
been there

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 03 Jul 03 - 07:59 AM

I would bet that at least part of the problem is that you're holding the two instruments differently (which wouldn't be surprising, given the difference in their body measurements). In my experience the biggest problems people have with barre chords are not a function of finger strength; they actually stem from the position of the wrist. If you want to play barre chords easily, your wrist (on your fretting hand) has to be pretty straight. If it's cocked inward, it becomes much more difficult to make a barre, and to hold it. People often hold the guitar neck too low, whether they're sitting down or standing up using a strap. It helps with those "thumb over" grabs, but it doesn't do much for your ability to play barre chords; you really need to keep the guitar neck at a suitable elevated position to play a barre comfortably.

I often tell students, or people that I'm coaching, that the ergonomics of playing guitar are very important, and involve more than your fingers. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 03 - 08:12 AM

Trouble is the crotch height guitar is popularised by a lot of electric bands.....

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Vixen
Date: 03 Jul 03 - 09:04 AM

WOW!

I was surprised to find all these responses this morning!

KateG and Strick--I've had my Alvarez about 20 years, and for the first couple of years I played it as it came out of the box. Then a friend of mine suggested I have it "set up" by the "guitar technician" at the store where I bought it. I did, and it was like magic--the thing has been a delight to play for everything except repeated barre chords at fast tempos. There are very few guitars I prefer to play over my Alvarez, which is one of the reasons I haven't wanted to run out and get a new one now that it's developed a buzz. Mudcat Kendall's Taylor is one of the few I really like. I've played a couple of Martins I really like too. Unfortunately, it seems, "all the good ones are taken..."

Murray, Cluin, and Bruce--I LIKE Devil's Dream in A!!! (*someday* I'll be able to flatpick it, too!) And it's nowhere near as difficult as New Camptown Races in Bb (I *absolutely* use a capo on that one!)I haven't learned OBS yet...

McGrath, Whistlestop, and Richard Bridge--Y'know, I thought it was a strength problem when I first started trying to use barre chords "seriously" (about 6 years ago), so I got one of those gadgets that's 4 spring-buttons on one side and a solid bar on the other side and I built up my individual finger and whole grip squeezes. I also ride an 1100 pound horse, who can pull like the dickens. Consequently, I do have a bit of grip now, so I don't think my barre chord problems have to do with that. The more I read here, the more I think it's a position issue. I usually play sitting with the whole instrument horizontal; when I'm upright, the soundhole is at navel height and the neck is cocked up to my left. With the Alvarez, my left wrist is definitely cocked at an uncomfortable and tense angle that prevents me from getting the leverage I need for the barres. I think it's the Baby puts my body in a whole lot more comfortable position, so the barre chords are easy. Now I just need to learn how to get into that position with my Alvarez.

And Willie-O--y'know, I can already tell that the Baby is going to be my "writing guitar" because it's so easy to noodle on. The Alvarez will still be my performance guitar if for no other reason than I feel a little bit *huge* playing the Baby standing up. And you're probably right about the new guitar too, unless another miracle occurs to cure the Alvarez' buzz issues. It's Possible, It's Possible.

Thanks Again!

V

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: Strick
Date: 03 Jul 03 - 12:42 PM

Vixen, when was the last time someone looked at your guitar? Being made of a natural product, wood, it changes over time in various ways. It might just need another set up to fix a buzz or any of a number of minor adjustments. Your luthier might even be able to help with the barre chord thing, at least a little, if you mention it to him/her.

Subject: RE: Guitar Playability Question
From: GUEST,cittern
Date: 03 Jul 03 - 03:37 PM

I've spent the last month or so playing every guitar I can get my hands on. I was encouraged to do so by my partner after visiting Andy Manson, who built her main gigging guitar. Julie, who sings the praises of Andy at every opportunity, had been trying to persuade me to order an instrument from Andy. Problem is, as soon as he started asking me what I wanted from a guitar, I realised that I didn't have a clue!

I have been amazed at how important the thickness of the neck is to me. Sure, the width of the neck is important, Sure, the action is important, along with the string weight and scale length. I just hadn't considered the thickness of the neck before. I now realise that I find a shallow neck, with what I can only descibe as a "flattened D" shape to the back of the neck, really makes a guitar sit well in my left hand.

I now have a much better idea of what I need from a guitar for it to be "playable". Others will have a different wishlist, which is why there are no stock answers to the question.

I also have the advantage of a partner who runs regular guitar workshops across the UK, which gives me access to instant advice on my playing posture, hand position etc (OK, I admit it, she nags me!) so once I have my perfect guitar .... I'll have no excuses.

Oh dear.

Best regards
John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk