BS: Tour de France, Anyone?

Subject: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Jul 03 - 07:23 PM

Any cycling Catters or fans of cycling? Or is it insufficiently compatible with beer?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jul 03 - 07:56 PM

I think Lance should have worked harder, to come in higher than 8th in the Prologue.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Jul 03 - 08:11 PM

I missed it, but did you know OLN has a live (and archived) audio feed this year?

Lance seems to agree with you, art, according to his www.cyclingnews.com post-Prologue interview. Well, we'll see how he does. Remember the year he faked being all worn out on one mountain stage, psyching out all the GC contenders-- till he ate them alive with a grin? I think perhaps he just wanted to ditch the yellow jersey so he'd present less of a target in the flat stages.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jul 03 - 09:24 PM

I doubt that anyone will ever fall for that one again, Susan.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 06:51 AM

And, uh, Lance finished 7th, not 8th, and... maybe you just did fall for it. :~)

Off on a road trip (by car, LOL)-- happy Touring!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 07:44 AM

just got back from France Bikes every where.

Anyone read "French Revolutions" about a guy who decides to "do the Tour" in his own time and way of course. Very Funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 08:33 AM

As someone who thinks that the bicycle is one of the greatest systems of all times in all endeavors, it is near and dear to my heart.

Of course I am a Lance fan. But whether he wins or not, I find it thrilling just to see people going that fast and exerting that much power and knowing that I and all other cyclists do pretty much the same thing, albeit much more slowly.

Interesting to note that there are far more folk songs about baseball and cars, even though bicycle racing was the undisputed attendance king of sports for the late 1800s into the 1910s, in America anyway. What've we got, "Daisy, Daisy?"

Anyway, I am glad OLN is covering it so well, a far cry from some of the earlier American coverage that was uninformed and way too chock full of commercials.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 09:11 AM

I have a theory on Tour style events. I think that, if the Kenyans ever decided to take up competive tour cycling, it would sound the death knell for white cyclist - as it has done for white distance runners. But will they ever get themselves organised?
P.S. I think it's a disgrace the way the BBC have ignored the Tour De France. I see ITV are showing highlights in the early hours of the morning. Better than nothing, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 10:43 AM

I dont think they ignored it. More like Sky bought them out. Just like all good sports coverage... gone off the face of the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:35 AM

Just checked in here:

http://www.letour.fr/tour96/2003/fr/index.html

Apparently, there was a fall in the midst of the peloton just before the finish -- one guy was carried off in a neck brace.

I like to read the news in French. I assume that if you change the "fr" in the above URL to "en", you'll get English. Also, perhaps because their server was deluged at the end of the stage, I was getting error messages when I tried to click through for more info.


Armen "Day-dee-zweet" Tanzerian

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:38 AM

OK, I was wrong. So go here:

http://www.letour.fr/

and select your own language.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 02:31 PM

No mention of the drugs?, the "sport" stinks. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 04:01 PM

Armstrong seems to've faked a fall in the big pileup too.   ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 05:09 PM

I think the best site you'll find for the Tour of France, and the Tour of Spain if your a USPS fan, is VeloNews. Lance has the best team there and will win at least two more tour's before he's done.
Now the next challenge is helping Heras win the Tour of Spain again, and maybe a higher placeing in the Tour of France.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 05:13 PM

That crash Armen mentioned did take out two other American contenders in Tyler Hamilton and Levi Leipheimer. It's too bad to see such great athletes as those two go down like that!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 08:33 PM

uh, ladies & gentlemen, in Amerika, thats the "Tour de Freedom" please.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 04:30 AM

My dad watches every year and thoroughly enjoys it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 06:04 AM

I will, of course, maintain interest while an Aussie is leading.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Beccy
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 11:53 AM

I think it ought to be called the Tour De Lance.

Beccy

P.S. Anyone know how many people have won 5 consecutive Tour de France-s?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 12:03 PM

I like the tour de France, and I think a cyclist will win it. hopefully either Scottish or Australian.

Tom
Well that's me put the kiss of death on anyone who is either Scottish or Australian who is riding the tour.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 01:06 PM

Anyone know how many people have won 5 consecutive Tour de France-s?

Only one so far, Miguel Indurain. The other three with five victories all together had misses in between.

I remember the good old days of the radio when I first got interested in the Tour. Those life reportings from the top of a mountain when nobody knew when the peleton was arriving and nonone knew what had happened in between:

"I am standing at the col du Tourmalet, the cloud are all around us and we do not see for more than twenty yards. The temperature is 5 degrees Celsius and a sleety rain is falling since four hours. We are waiting for the first grimpeurs to arrive here. The last information we had is the the first part of the peleton was down to 20 cyclists one hour ago with none of the favourites missing.....(5 more minutes of describing rain and cold)...The noise we hear from a couple of hundred metres below tells us that the first cyclist is bound to come soon. Who will it be and how big will be the ecart....(two more minutes of describing noise getting louder).....there I see a trikot throught the rain, a man alone, could it be, oh no, yes, yes, it is Federico Bahamontes, the eagle from Toledo, first man on this years Tourmalet, passing here 7 hours, 13 minutes and 15 seconds after the start. He still looks determined and now gets hold of a paper for the descent. Let us have a look at the watch, how many minutes will he be in front of the second, when will Anquetil pass here and can Bahamontes win enough time from the mountain etappes to last him to Paris. THERE COMES THE SECOND and it is Charly, Charly Gaul, 42 seconds behind Bahamontes and still no Anquetil in view. That's a bit of a surprise and Gaul is strong enough to win against Bahamontes in the descent. Voices are getting louder again and there is the maillot jaune, Jacquers Anquetil with Hennes Junkermann still close to him, but Poulidor is missing. There were five cyclists in this group but through the fog I could only make out Anquetil and Junkermann, but where is Poulidor? There comes Poulidor, alone and fighting but looking beaten. Should it be another year without a win by Poulidor? Now I will hand over to the reporter at the finish line where the cyclists are expected in about one hour...."

I still like to watch it but the thrill of those times is gone. I still think it is a shame that Poulidor never has won the Tour and never has donned le maillot jaune even for a single day and I think the first German winner should have been Hennes Junkermann or Rolf Wolfshohl and not what's his name.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Beccy
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 02:41 PM

So if Lance won this year, he'd be tying a pretty big record?
Is Miguel Indurain the one they called "Big Mig"????

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 03:27 PM

Yes, Indurain is 'Big Mig'.
Let's see how Lance is affected by his recent (and a less recent) fall this year. Giro winner Simoni is said to be very strong this year.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 07:18 PM

As it turns out, the guy who screwed up and caused the crash that took many riders out also caused a crash at the giro that took out Cipolini, the worlds fastest cyclist. Like I said, Lance has the best support in the tour. This is a 20 stage race, not a 2 day one. When the moutains come, the standings always change dramticly.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 11:14 PM

Whoa -- talk about kicking ass...this guy Virenque is quite a climber, non? Nice lift for the home crowd.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 07:48 AM

Simoni is very disappointing. Armstrong can be very glad with the development so far. He'll easily squash Virenque's advantage in the first long contre-le-montre.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 02:18 PM

Nice Call Wolfgang, Armstrong is now in yellow. Virenque had a nice victory, but it sure didn't last long. I predict that at the finish, Roberto Heras will be on the podium as well.
Another great story this thread missed was at the end of the team time trial, Victor Hugo-Pena took the yellow jersey and kept it for two days. The first day he wore it was his birthday. Pena is the first Columbian, or South American for that matter, to wear the yellow jersey in the tour.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 03:36 PM

I confess, I am hooked since I saw the Tour last year..(we get it on OLN, The Outdoor Life network)...I am just becoming familar with how the scoring, rules, tactics..etc., work. I have finally come up with a working definition of "Peloton"....."Those poor struggling riders who have little chance to win, but get bonuses helping the stars avoid problems" *grin*...yes, I know...silly...but..

One thing I do NOT understand yet though, is why they tolerate so many spectators jumping out on the course, especially on the mountain finishes! Sometimes the riders can barely get through. I actually saw one photographer fail to get out of the way, and get run over by a rider.

...and all those cars and motorcycles!...it's a wonder there are not more crashes.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 06:08 PM

Bill, from my understanding, the peloton is the main group of riders. Armstrong will typically finish with the main group on a sprinting stage as that's not his strength.
I couldn't agree more about the spectators though. I remember once in the Giro (tour of Italy) when the spectators were particularly bad, running along side the riders and getting in the way. Finally, Simoni punched a spectator out. He was kicked off the Giro that year, but has come back since and won it this year.
The motorcycles have caused some huge crashes. I can remember one last year in the Tour of Spain that took out a good portion of the riders, including USPS rider Mike Berry (I think that's the spelling he uses).

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 07:37 PM

Good point Ard Mhacha. I used to ride a lot when I was young and foolish, but didn't race because I wasn't prepared to compete against people doing drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 08:12 PM

I guess I enjoy it when there is a good crash, though I really don't enjoy seeing someone getting injured badly... I feel guilty then...

Basicaly, I do not enjoy what I would class as individual sports where power, stamina, etc. are the main criteria. As far as I'm concerned, performancing enhancing drugs are too much of a temptation, athletes are too self centered, governments and governing bodies have too much self interest and the game is about what you can get away with...

Give me a game of skill any day and preferably a team game. Not too long ago, Shane Warne was rightfully banned (IMO) for taking an ilegal substance but I don't think any of us could argue that whatever he took could in any way have altered his sheer brilliance and accuray at bolwing leg spin in cricket.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 02:06 PM

I don't understand the rating system much. All I know is that to us cancer survivors, Lance is THE MAN!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:02 PM

Beloki crashed out today. He took 2nd last year and 3rd the two years prior. He looked very determined this year. It's too bad this happened!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 06:34 PM

I suppose they should add 5 seconds to Armstrong for taking that shortcut to avoid poor Beloki...but maybe they should subtract some time for being quick witted enough to not be the 2nd major rider to go out in 1 crash! What a turn of events!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 10:20 AM

There are penalties for taking shortcuts but not under these circumstances. It has been announced (undisputed by other teams) within minutes after the race had been finished that there would be no penalty for Armstrong.

Armstrong looks less dominant than the last years. I still think he's going to make it (more from a lack of convincing opposition), but during the last years he could easily distance Beloki each time he wanted. And this time he looked rather glad he could follow Beloki on the Alpe d'Huez stage. The last years after half of the race there usually was only one cyclist within ten minutes of Armstrong. This year, after half of the race, 25 cyclists are within 10 minutes of Armstrong. That makes his task of controlling the peloton much more difficult.

Beloki looked impressively strong and determined this year. It is a pity he had to go out. Nonetheless, I see no cyclists to take the Tour from Lance easily. Vino is in the form of his life and slightly better than Armstrong in the mountain stages, but he is not good enough in the two contre-le-montres<(i> to come. Vino can make it among the first ten or even six in these stages, but that still means a loss of about two minutes on Armstrong at least. Ullrich could beat Armstrong on a perfect day in the contre-le-montres but is not strong enough in the mountains. Mayo has not the will to win. Have you seen how he did not fight til the end on the Alpe d'Huez stage but enjoy the victory and let seconds slip away? He'll be happy to win one more stage in the Pyrenees. He hasn't the stamina to win the whole event.

Anyway, the fall of Beloki has shown how small the path to victory can be. A fall can change anything quickly. A jours sans of Armstrong also could change everything. The last times Armstrong was so dominant that he could win even with a jours sans. I remember a year he had one and still won easily against Ullrich. This year, a day where he'll show weakness would mean the end of his hopes.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 11:30 AM

One of Lance's main strengths is the team he has to help him...they are performing well in almost every way and seem to be able to stay near the front at crucial times.

As you say, Wolfgang, anything can happen in the next 10 days, and whether other riders are better or Lance is older, all these challenges MUST have an effect as various teams try to wear him down. He is being pretty smart as he keeps track of WHO is doing a breakaway, and not worrying about catching one-day wonders who are wearing themselves out just trying to get a stage win.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 03:01 PM

Here is what former cycling champion Bernard Thevenet predicts:
Je vois bien un podium Armstrong-Mayo-Vinokourov dans cet ordre. Mayo devrait attaquer de nouveau dans les Pyrénées. Et Vinokourov, même s'il paraît bien, a toujours un jour sans en montagne.

Take Mayo out and put Ullrich in and you have my present prediction (No former champ in anything). Watch this place to see my improved prediction after the Pyrenees. Usually during the last couple of years my latest improved and refined prediction, the day before the Tour ended, tended to be very close to the result next day.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 07:02 PM

It's true Lance hasn't been able to distance himself like in years past, but in his defense, people are attacking much more. Beloki made a serious attack on Sunday, something he didn't really do all last year. Monday, Lance and Beloki were working together to catch someone they both felt threatened their respective positions on the chart. Beloki just happened to be in front.
In not so sure about Heras anymore, but I'll hold to my perdiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 04:32 AM

Heras has the ability, no question, but as equipier of Armstrong he has tasks that sometimes afford an extra effort he could spare if he was le principal himself. My guess is that that extra effort and not lack of ability will cost him the podium.

Perhaps Armstrong makes something next year or after next year that the great Anquetil has done once with Lucien Aimar profiting. When everybody thought Anquetil would go for his sixth victory and they all looked what he did or didn't he supported his long time equipier Lucien Aimar and when they found out it was too late. Aimar did win the Tour and Anquetil did not finish.

With Armstrong supporting Heras as a bonus for years of help Heras would be a strong candidate even for the middle position on the podium.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 10:48 AM

...and wouldn't it be something if Tyler Hamilton made the podium after his crash? To still be in the top 5 or 6 is quite amazing.

I can't say I'd go out on a limb and predict it....but starnge things happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 12:41 PM

Interesting enough Wolfgang, it is my understanding that when Heras signed on to support Lance in the Tour of France, it was agreed that Lance would support Heras in the Tour of Spain. That hasn't yet happened. Still, Heras took second on that tour with only one solid support rider.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 12:12 PM

Armstrong is definitely weaker than during the last years. In all his last years he always had a five minutes advantage before the second set of mountain stages. Though 'weakness' in his class of cycling is a very relative word. Most cyclists would wish that only once on a good day they'd be as good as Armstrong on a weak day. Perhaps he tells after the Tour whether his fall in the first stage did hurt more than he tried to show or what else it was. There are rumours that he has stomach problems. But you could ask him and he'd smile and say he never felt better.

We now know that Ullrich had fever the day he had lost time in the Alps. He didn't tell then fearing an early attack. He even sent one of his equipiers to the Tour physician feigning health problems during the race. The man brought the pills he got to Ullrich who didn't want to be seen close to the doctors car.

The European newspapers now expect Ullrich to win and the way he looked today I'd say he will. But the way Armstrong did come back after Ullrich's attack showed this man is not ready at all to let slip away the yellow jersey without a hell of a fight. Fifteen seconds between the first two with the third rider in the form of his life being less than a minute away promises two more exiting days in the Pyrenees.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 06:18 AM

Wolfgang, I am surprised at you, we all know that the US has all of the best drugs, Remember the placards as Lance passed the spectators last year declaring him a drug taker. Ard Mhacha

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 06:59 AM

Ard Mhacha,

I remember my student times when some co-students always wanted to discuss the ugliness of capitalist professional sports in the middle of an exiting game ("This Beckenbauer guy you applaud, do you know, BTW, that he votes conservative?"). We were not very receptive for the arguments at that particular time of day.

Next evening, at dinner time, we said now was a perfect time to discuss capitalist sport. They were not interested then anymore. Interestingly, they only wanted to discuss sports exactly and only when we wanted to watch.

After the Tour will be finished I'll be very receptive for your good arguments, Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:00 AM

last post from:

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:10 AM

I applaud Franz Beckebauer as a footballer, playing the game without the aid of drugs, as for who he votes for, I couldn`t care less.
Sincerely, Wolfgang, if you are heading off on holidays,have a good time. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 02:01 PM

well, Ullrich looked stronger and better prepared to me!...He and Armstrong ought to make this next few days very exciting. That time trial, I think, did a lot to Lance's confidence as he had not been beaten in time trials but once previously.

Good drama,no matter who wins.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 11:03 AM

What a great stage of Armstrong! I don't think he will loose the Tour now, for he will not loose at the contre-la-montre that much time for a second time. Last time he has made a mistake (not enough fluid intake) he will not repeat. A great Tour with the smallest winning margin since many years.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 11:42 AM

Ullrich has looked exceptionaly strong this year. Lance's win today should give him a huge boost in confidence though. While this one has been very exciting, I'm already looking foward to next year which will hopefully feature an even more determined Beloki.
It was a class act of Ullrich though to hold everybody back after Armstrong and Mayo crashed until they caught up.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 03:30 PM

those riders need to remember who was decent...Armstrong waited for Ullrich several years ago.

What a stage! Drama & strategy and endurance from many riders. 67 seconds lead is nice, but I doubt Lance is overconfident...too many things can happen. But it does seem that only 3-4 have any serious chance now...

(I still cringe at the masses of spectators who feel they MUST stand right in the path and wave flags and run beside the cyclists!....and did anyone else catch the 5 or 6 seconds yesterday when one guy lowered the rear of his shorts and ran beside the leaders, mooning the world? *grin*)