Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?

Subject: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 10:49 PM

Could someone give me a definition of what qualifies as ceili or ceilidh music (dance, etc.) and what makes it different from what is commonly thought of (at least by me) as Celtic or Irish music? I seem to recall someone commenting recently that there is a difference between Celtic and Irish music, and what might that be? Am I correct in assuming Celtic might be a broad term which would encompass Scottish (or Scots - once got my head taken off for using the wrong term!) music?

Thanks! :o)

Annie

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 10:59 PM

I have always defined Ceilidh music as house party music from what ever instruments are at hand. I suppose, and it is hirrific to think so, that you could have a Ceilidh of nothing but accordions. Spoons, a fiddle or two, a whistle, and an old cheese crate to pound upon with a piano or guitar for chords would certainly fill the bill under my unscholarly definition.

As to the rest of you question there are many more qualified people in the forum that I who will be glad to help you with your definition.

Don

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:10 PM

Thanks, Don. Your definition brings to mind some interesting possibilities! :o) It also sounds like it would be a lot of fun!

Despite my advanced age, I'm a newcomer to a lot of folk and Celtic/Irish music, and I feel as if a whole new world has been opened up to me, so I'm anxious to learn all I can.

Annie

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:19 PM

Here you go Annie, a some what different definition.

Over here in NY State we had house parties and square dances on the farms and in the Grange Halls years ago. The bands were always what ever and who ever was handy. After a Grange dinner at the Hall the tables would be cleared away and the party would begin. The hired hand might be the bass player and leader of the Ladies Auxilliary might play a piano. The guy who sold feed might play the banjo. A 14 year old could might be able to fiddle the silk off an ear of corn and the Veternary would maybe do the calls for squares or contras.
And they play all manner of stuff on that mix of instruments. Reels, jigs, recent pop tunes and old waltzes. Even some Hank Williams.

The whole mix might change around at the next meeting. That to me is a Ceilidh.

Don

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:20 PM

Far be it for me to really know (on the wrong side of the pond), but I did read this in Ciaran Carson's most excellent book, Last Night's Fun: In and Out of Time with Irish Music:

"In my teens in Belfast, a ceili was a social event imprimatured by the Catholic Church where boys and girls met each other under close sacerdotal supervision and pracitsed minimal-contact dancing; the best part was where you got to swing the girl. The only drinks were soft, though some boys were known to smuggle in flat half-bottles of "British Wine." It was a far cry from the ceili I encountered later on in life."

He goes on to say:

"In its primary sense, ceili does not necessarily include music. Father Dinneeen's Irish Dictionary has `an evening visit, a friendly call', with `an evening of musical entertainment' secondary, and that probably in deference to those evenings formally devised by the early Gaelic League. The word derives from ceile `a companion'." (Sorry, I cannot remember the html to make the diacritical mark over the first "e")

Then he explains that in more depth and that Dinneen's entry is a full column long.

He also makes note that "in rural ares, ceili denotes a visit or series of visits; a way of passing the time of day or night. Anglicised as kayley, as is current in West Ulster, especially, sometimes as a verb -- recalling an absent friend, one might say, `I used to kayley with him.'"

One term he uses throughout the book but doesn't really explain except with one small remark is fleadh and one close to it,fleadhana(sp?). It seems it means a musical competition, but I'd love to hear more about it, too.

Great start for a thread. Thanks!

kat

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:26 PM

Sure Kat, make it a church thing. The Baptists wouldn't tolerate such goings on I'll tell you.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:35 PM

Interesting, Don and Kat! It sounds to me as if ceili might be folk music in its truest form - as music of the people... don't be afraid to hit me over the head with something if I say something stupid, I'm used to it! :o) (I have a brother - LOL!)

Kat, you anticipated my second question - what is fleadh? And how is it pronounced? Thanks also for the pronounciation of ceili, of course it's different than I thought - despite the fact that one of my ancestors left Ireland a wanted man for teaching Catholicism and the Irish language in the "hedgerow" schools, none of his children, grandchildren and assorted greats 'have the Irish'. Which is a damn shame. Wish I felt up to tackling it now.

Oh, and you're welcome! :o) I was afraid I'd be ducking tin cans for asking too elementary a question. I'm not a musician (and try to sing only where no one can hear me) so I sometimes feel in over my head here but the wealth of information here is astounding.

Annie

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From:
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:44 PM

In Scottish Gaelic Ceilidh is also a house visit.

Over the past decades, the term has been taken to mean a party, usually a musical party.

In Cape BReton, we also use another term, Kitchen Party. It encompasses every aspect of the connotations of Ceilidh.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: GUEST,celtaddict
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 12:20 AM

Here in New England, the "kitchen dance" is the local equivalent of the ceilidh. Some, in poorer rural districts, may be entirely to "mouth music" or lilting, an art treasured in some of the more remote parishes well into at least the 70s. As used by my Irish friends over there (Connemara, Clare and Aran), ceilidh strongly implies dancing, as opposed to hoolie which seems to mean party in general and implies both a certain amount of rowdiness and a round robin feel, in which everyone is expected to contribute a song or a tune, a tale or a joke or a poem. Dance itself is rinnce, pronounced RINGkya, as is often seen in connection with a contest (at a feis, pronounced fesh) and dancing is damhsa, pronounced DOWssa, as in a dance hall, halla damhsa. Ceol (kyoll) is music, and a relatively formal concert would be a ceolchoirm, pronounced KYOLLkhirm. If you see a sign for "Siamsa" it is advertising entertainment, SHEEMsha, but almost always means traditional, live music. You might run across sean nos (accent or fada over the o) pronounced shan nohss, which means old style and refers to solo singing, unaccompanied and typically highly ornamented (little slurs and yelps). A traditional storyteller, the other big traditional entertainment, is a seanachai (fada over the i), pronounced SHAHNukhee, a term familiar from the recording company. A fairly common sign in a pub and elsewhere advertises ceol, cainte, agus craic: kyoll, CANTche, oggus crack, or music, talk, and fun. Are you confused yet?
As far as I know, after years of efforts, one cannot actually learn Gaeilge, the Irish Gaelic, if one is not born to it. So pick up bits and enjoy them.
Slainte!

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: GUEST,celtaddict
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 12:37 AM

By the way, the "wrong" term was probably Scotch. The traditional distinction is that people of Scotland are Scots, or Scotsmen and Scotswomen, and the descriptive Scottish can apply to people or objects; you also often see Scots used as a descriptive as well, as in a good Scots piper. The term Scotch is applied to inanimate objects: Scotch whisky, Scotch eggs, and such. Some people consider calling a person Scotch to be not only incorrect but demeaning, though not on the level of an actual ethnic epithet.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 04:31 AM

Its easy, at leat in the UK.

Also a very good way to check out the atmosphere in advance.

A "Celidh" is for the left-wing Labour types & folk afficionadoes. Blairites and Conservatives have "Barn Dances" instead.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 04:43 AM

I wasn't going to respond to this but ...

There are probably a number of threads where 'Celtic' is defined; I'm pretty sure they point out that the term has pretty well been commandeered to mean Irish and Scottish, ignoring the fact that there are other Celtic nations with their own musics. And they have their own perfectly valid words or expressions for 'ceilidh' ...

sian

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 05:12 AM

I think the use of the word "Ceilidh" to mean "Barndance" was introduced by the English Folk Dance and Song Society in the late 50s or early 60s.

Can anyone confirm this?

:-)

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 06:12 AM

In England during the 1970's the term Ceilidh started to get used instead of Barn dance for an evening of country dancing with a more formal band and caller. These used to be called a Barn Dance, although they were more likely to be in a village hall or on premises belonging to a school.
The term Barn Dance had started to become hackneyed, and asssociated with an image of Old Ladies sipping tea, and plodding round. Someone wanted to "market" dances they were organising (or playing for) as something more lively and exciting, so they "borrowed" the term Ceilidh.
These days the new usage is used widely in the UK folk scene. The only times you see a Barn Dance advertised tends to be when it is a fund raiser run by a school's PTA, or similar organisation which is not part of the "official" folk scene.
Quack.
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 07:33 AM

Fleadhanna is simply the plural of fleadh, kat. If you search for fleadh in this forum you'll find previous threads about what it means and its pronunciation (rather than take over this thread).

Interesting points there Geoff- in my upbringing in Irish Catholic Liverpool, ceilis were Irish dances (often put on in parish halls by each parish) where everyone would know all the dances, so there was no caller. I learned a great deal about playing for dances in this way, particularly by playing the parish club's piano which hadn't been tuned for an age- I got good at transposing up a tone or a semitone. Problem came when it was 'in the crack'!

Later, probably in the mid 70s, we got asked to play for barn dances (PTAs, charity fundraisers etc) where people wouldn't know the dances, so we had a caller, and introduced simpler English and American dances along with the walls of Limerick and the waves of Tory. Funny thing was, dancers seemed to have the idea that barn dances were American, and would come dressed in check shirts, dungarees and straw hats... (NOT old ladies sipping tea!)

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 08:01 AM

Even though the term "céilí" derives from a social visit, I don't think it is used in that sense in modern Irish to any great extent but I am open to correction. In Ireland and in Irish communities abroad, it simply means a get-together where people do ahhmm! céilí dances. It's a relatively recent development, the first modern céilí having been held according to folklore in London at the end of the 19th century, organized by Conradh na Gaeilge/ The Gaelic League, the Irish language organization. Céilí dances are related to similar figure dancing that developed in different countries. Whatever the origins céilí dancing developed along it's own lines and was very popular in rural Ireland up to the sixties, it then went into a decline before a revival in the late eighties/early nineties in a different form.

That revival ironically enough was in a large part due to the craze for "set" dancing. Set dancing derived from the French quadrille but metamorphized over the years into a distinctly Irish form. Irish dancing teachers are now very popular in France teaching this descendent of the quadrille to enthusiastic Gauls. However, the 'sets' were originally strictly forbidden by the organizers of the céilís, who regarded them as foreign dances and associated them with the British army. The term céilí has now become a little confusing, as set dancers call their getogethers céilís also. So you need to find out if it's a fíor céilí (real céilí) or 'sets' céilí you are going to. In practise they tend to have a bit of both with the odd old-time waltz or foxtrot thrown in for seasoning. However I believe in the North they still take the division seriously, they're a very serious crowd up there.

Fleádh, plural fleádhanna, means feast or party or just a piss up, but is used now for competitions in music, song and dance organized by Comhaltas Ceoilteoirí Éireann (just call them Comhaltas). At their major annual event Fleádh Cheoil na hÉireann, they have three different céilí dances running concurrently; the fíor céilí (for the true blues), the sets céilí (for the leapers), and the mixed céilí (for the liberals).

I hope that leaves you suitably enlightened / confused.

As for "Celtic" music - don't get me started, PLEASE, don't get me started ---- Mush, Schmaltzzz, Muzak, Elevator music - - - God! where are the pills. No self respecting Celt, excepting the most crassly commercial, would have anything to do with so called Celtic music. I'll return to this acrimonious subject at a later date. I need a good herbal mud bath to cool me down.

Slán go Fóil

Learaí na Láibe

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 10:48 AM

Thanks, Noreen and ya others. Very interesting!

Hobbitwoman, thanks, again!

kat

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 11:18 AM

My Irish language dictionary defines "ceili" (with fadas on "e" and second "i") as:
1. Friendly call, visit.
2. Social evening
3. Irish dancing session.

In Ireland in the 40s and 50s we used to talk about "going to Mickey's for a ceili", or " Who'll that be at the door, it'll be Mickey on his ceili". (Actually doors were never locked and nobody ever knocked; it was a question of "Don't bother to knock, just lift the latch and walk right in me boys"!)

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 03:13 PM

Around the north of Ireland,it was termed "going ceiliing", visiting homes in the area, wether for music or gossip. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: Adrianl
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 04:12 PM

Here is a goood definition of english ceilidh.

http://www.ftech.co.uk/~webfeet/eceilidh/Overview.html

Adrian

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 05:29 PM

IanC - the term ceilidh in English folk dance definitely did not originate with EFDSS. It came from the song clubs and new morris sides in the 70s who ran events with a mix of social dance and song or morris.

The EFDSS contribution was to apply the ceilidh tag to dances without floor spots.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: treewind
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 05:55 PM

If you look at the Sidmouth International Festival site (which is woefully out of date by the way, but I digress) you will see the distinction between "ceilidh" and "social dance". I suppose "social dance" there is what used to be called "barn dance" according to Geoff the Duck's definition. The ceilidhs there are basically "English ceilidh" using the webfeet definition. That is an openly artificial term invented to distinguish it from (a) other English social folk dance (the blue rinse and tea dance brigade) and (b) any Scottish or Irish interpretations of the word, which are quite different.

The bottom line is that "ceilidh" means different things to different people and in the absence of experience you should not be embarrassed to ask for clarification when anybody says it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 07:31 PM

Ceilidh is the Scottish form, and it meant a social visit, which may or may not include music and dancing, ceili (with the accents) would be the Irish way of denoting it the same thing, although I suspect it
has lately been assumed to mean a dance.
petr.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 07:37 PM

If you are aked for money, it's a dance (possibly with a few 'spots' )
If you're asked to bring a bottle of whiskey - it's the other sort!

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 08:27 PM

Good definitions of ceilidh above. Here are the OED comments. The word was not admitted to its hallowed pages until the 1987 supplement.

Ceilidh, also ceilidhe- Old Irish céile, companion [also ref. to Sc. word, etc.].
a. An evening visit, a friendly social call. b. A session of traditional music, storytelling or dancing.
1875, from Celtic Magazine. "The fire in the center of the room was almost a necessity in the good old ceilidh days."
1904, Daily Chronicle. "Participants narrated their incidents at the 'ceilidh' around the cottage fire."
In 1959, the sense of a party or hootnanny "all over the British Isles" at the pub, club or private house featuring folkmusic appears in print.

Esentially the same definitions are in Merriam Webster's Third International Dictionary, but the word is left out of the Collegiate edition.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 07 Jul 03 - 11:15 PM

Thank you, thank you, one and all! :o) Yes, I am both enlightened and confused, but the latter might be the result of the late hour (for a work night). I promise I will re-read this thread when my brain is fully functioning, though some might tell you that will never happen.

Yes, the term I used was Scotch, and I was unaware it was considered "offensive" - since around here, it's not. So sometimes those terms some might find "offensive" others would not, or vice versa, or maybe we're just uninformed or the local custom is different, or whatever. You can call me a coalcracker, and I promise I won't be insulted!

But I'm rambling - another effect of the hour. So I'll say good night, and thanks again!

Annie

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 12:15 AM

Don't worry unduly about that "Scotch" business, by the way. I used to be one of those who objected to its use for other-than-food items; until, that is, I made the small effort of looking at the history of usage. Turns out that "Scots", "Scottish" and "Scotch" were used interchangeably, and with no value judgements attached, by Scottish people as by everyone else, until well within living memory. The fine distinction made nowadays is a matter of fashion as much as anything else. People who make a fuss about it are usually -present company excepted, of course!- just ignorant (as I used to be on the subject) or trying to show off, or pick a fight.

Generally speaking, I'd think the term "Celtic" to be fairly unhelpful; again, it's largely a fashion-product, and not really much more indicative of a commonality of style or repertoire than "European" or "Asian". On the whole, I'd stick with "Irish", or "Scottish" (as appropriate), for instance; it gives a much better idea of what's meant.

You'll be relieved to find that I have nothing to add to what has already been said about the word ceilidh!

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: GUEST,jfm
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 09:53 AM

Hobbitwoman, 'Céilí' as normally used in Ireland is a larger gathering than just a few friends and neighbours getting together. In Irish there are terms such as 'ag airneán' and 'ag bothántaíocht', covering such activities as 'late-night visiting' and 'social visiting'. This was very common in olden times when houses were small and crowded and there were very few venues for entertainment and little money to spend even if there had been. There was invariably one or more houses in a parish that were the regular meeting places at night. One might be favoured by the younger set and another by the older people. Music was not part of it normally, but there would be cards and maybe story-telling (ghost stories were always popular)and gossip and of course, courting in the back room. That was how my old mam and dad first met.

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 07:18 PM

Hi Hobbitwoman,
Here's an interesting page on the development of Céilí dancing in Ireland - http://www.standingstones.com/ceili.html

Apologies for my recent intemperate outburst about 'Celtic music'. I suppose in itself the term is innocuous, meaning the many varied types of folk music heard in the different Celtic countries/regions. However it has become a marketing tool for a kind of bland, new agey mood music. Not my cup of tea but tastes differ. If you put "Celtic Music" into the 'lyrics & knowledge' search box you will come across many previous threads giving different views on the matter and you will see that I am not alone in feeling a little cranky on the subject. I never hear trad musicians here in Ireland referring to their music as Celtic. However it is used very legitimately by some sites exploring the folk music of the Celtic regions. See -
http://www.ceolas.org/ref/Internet_Sources.html
http://www.standingstones.com/celtmusic.html
or on a less serious note
http://www.shenanigan.bc.ca/whatis.html

Now I must return to my pond before I dehydrate

Learaí na Láibe sa Loch leis na Lachain.

You don't have to understand but at least it alliterates!! :)

Subject: RE: Define Ceili (Ceilidh) Please?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 11:07 PM

Thank you, Malcom, and thank you, Guest and Learia na Laibe... I'm getting the picture, I think... I will check out all the sites you listed, Learai; I really have to get to this earlier in the evening!

At any rate, I'm getting the idea that whatever is involved in ceili (or ceilidh), whether it be dancing, card-playing, story-telling or music, a good time is generally had by all! I like the idea of people gathering in neighborhood homes to socialize - it's kind of hard to imagine that happening these days when people so often don't even know their next-door neighbors' names. And as for the term Celtic... well, in my mind it's perhaps more "traditional" music as opposed to the "new agey" stuff - while I like some of the latter I prefer the former - but I'm still learning!

And thanks to all for your willingness to share your knowledge and understanding! :o)

Annie