Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Corruption of the meaning of Session

Pied Piper 09 Jul 03 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,MMario 09 Jul 03 - 09:24 AM
Willie-O 09 Jul 03 - 09:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 03 - 09:31 AM
GUEST 09 Jul 03 - 09:32 AM
GUEST 09 Jul 03 - 09:34 AM
Watson 09 Jul 03 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Russ 09 Jul 03 - 09:51 AM
Pied Piper 09 Jul 03 - 09:56 AM
songs2play 09 Jul 03 - 09:57 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jul 03 - 09:59 AM
clansfolk 09 Jul 03 - 09:59 AM
GUEST 09 Jul 03 - 10:00 AM
Jeri 09 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM
Pied Piper 09 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM
Grab 09 Jul 03 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Vince 09 Jul 03 - 10:34 AM
Geoff the Duck 09 Jul 03 - 10:34 AM
Pied Piper 09 Jul 03 - 10:35 AM
GUEST 09 Jul 03 - 10:54 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 03 - 10:55 AM
Dave Bryant 09 Jul 03 - 10:57 AM
andymac 09 Jul 03 - 11:07 AM
Pied Piper 09 Jul 03 - 11:18 AM
Noreen 09 Jul 03 - 11:22 AM
Pied Piper 09 Jul 03 - 11:23 AM
Jeri 09 Jul 03 - 11:26 AM
Steve Parkes 09 Jul 03 - 11:29 AM
Pied Piper 09 Jul 03 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Vince 09 Jul 03 - 11:39 AM
clansfolk 09 Jul 03 - 11:43 AM
Pied Piper 09 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM
Raggytash 09 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM
Pied Piper 09 Jul 03 - 11:48 AM
PoppaGator 09 Jul 03 - 11:55 AM
GUEST 09 Jul 03 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,MMario 09 Jul 03 - 11:59 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 09 Jul 03 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Rich A 09 Jul 03 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,MMario 09 Jul 03 - 12:17 PM
Dave Bryant 09 Jul 03 - 12:26 PM
Jeri 09 Jul 03 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,MMario 09 Jul 03 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 09 Jul 03 - 12:29 PM
andymac 09 Jul 03 - 12:32 PM
smallpiper 09 Jul 03 - 12:43 PM
Watson 09 Jul 03 - 12:44 PM
Noreen 09 Jul 03 - 12:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 03 - 01:28 PM
Noreen 09 Jul 03 - 01:51 PM
greg stephens 09 Jul 03 - 02:57 PM
Skipjack K8 09 Jul 03 - 03:58 PM
smallpiper 09 Jul 03 - 07:56 PM
Bassic 09 Jul 03 - 09:36 PM
greg stephens 10 Jul 03 - 02:52 AM
smallpiper 10 Jul 03 - 03:20 AM
Steve Parkes 10 Jul 03 - 03:35 AM
Roger the Skiffler 10 Jul 03 - 03:53 AM
Roger the Skiffler 10 Jul 03 - 04:06 AM
Trevor 10 Jul 03 - 04:12 AM
Dave Bryant 10 Jul 03 - 04:42 AM
Pied Piper 10 Jul 03 - 05:37 AM
clansfolk 10 Jul 03 - 05:44 AM
the lemonade lady 10 Jul 03 - 05:52 AM
GUEST 10 Jul 03 - 05:59 AM
Dave Bryant 10 Jul 03 - 06:19 AM
IanC 10 Jul 03 - 06:31 AM
Gurney 10 Jul 03 - 06:42 AM
smallpiper 10 Jul 03 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Jon 10 Jul 03 - 07:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jul 03 - 07:47 AM
treewind 10 Jul 03 - 07:49 AM
greg stephens 10 Jul 03 - 08:06 AM
8ch(pl) 10 Jul 03 - 08:32 AM
smallpiper 10 Jul 03 - 08:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jul 03 - 10:12 AM
greg stephens 10 Jul 03 - 10:21 AM
smallpiper 10 Jul 03 - 10:27 AM
Pied Piper 10 Jul 03 - 11:39 AM
Noreen 10 Jul 03 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Vince 10 Jul 03 - 04:12 PM
clansfolk 10 Jul 03 - 04:13 PM
My guru always said 11 Jul 03 - 04:43 AM
Steve Parkes 11 Jul 03 - 05:13 AM
Dave Bryant 11 Jul 03 - 05:17 AM
My guru always said 11 Jul 03 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,orange utan 11 Jul 03 - 06:05 AM
Steve Parkes 11 Jul 03 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,BDog 11 Jul 03 - 01:13 PM
IanC 11 May 04 - 11:35 AM
Lanfranc 11 May 04 - 06:46 PM
TS 11 May 04 - 06:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 May 04 - 08:35 PM
erinmaidin 12 May 04 - 05:24 AM
Strollin' Johnny 12 May 04 - 08:41 AM
JulieF 12 May 04 - 08:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 May 04 - 08:59 AM
barrygeo 12 May 04 - 09:44 AM
Pied Piper 12 May 04 - 09:50 AM
matai 12 May 04 - 09:56 AM
Pied Piper 12 May 04 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,JOHN of ELSIE`S BAND 12 May 04 - 10:29 AM
Strollin' Johnny 12 May 04 - 11:54 AM
JWB 12 May 04 - 12:28 PM
jimmyt 12 May 04 - 12:42 PM
erinmaidin 12 May 04 - 12:44 PM
Strollin' Johnny 12 May 04 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,fi in nz 12 May 04 - 09:13 PM
YorkshireYankee 12 May 04 - 10:56 PM
TS 12 May 04 - 11:00 PM
Steve Parkes 13 May 04 - 04:36 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: Sessions vs Sing arounds
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:12 AM

I have noticed recently an attempt by singers to pervert the meaning of Session to mean, "Sing around".
A Session involves lots of people playing TOGETHER with occasional solos. The "sing around", more accurately defined as a self-indulgent rotational Ego trip, is something completely different stressing as it does the, them and us/ performer audience, dichotomy.
Another important difference is the deferential attitude non-participants are required to show, not conversing, while someone who thinks it un-necessary to sing the song in the same key from start to finish, and can't be bothered to learn the 7th verse, though they've been singing it for 20 years, murders a beautiful ballad.
At least we who play in Sessions don't force the non-combatants to shut up while we're playing.
Sessions are about collective Musicing and loss of Ego, Sing arounds, are the opposite; please reframe from corrupting the meaning of this word.
All the best
PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:24 AM

sing arounds can also be VERY much a collective experience - with chorus songs or call and response songs... or unison singing on old favorites, or harmony singing or...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Willie-O
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:30 AM

Sheesh! Good thing you spotted this menacing trend just in time PP.

Not that I don't secretly agree with you, sometimes. I just wouldn't let on. I'd rather reframe.

Now my session... that's going to be a session. No wanking.   

W-O


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:31 AM

You have tune sessions and you have song sessions and you have sessions which are both. And there are story-telling sessi0ns and dance sessions for that matter.

"Session" just means you're sitting down together. Maybe you're doing things at the same time, maybe you're taking turns. That applies whether its songs or tunes, or stories or dances.

They have bull sessions too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:32 AM

Oooooooh! Tetchy!!

In my experience, I'd have to agree with MMario!

My pet gripe about sessions is the need some people seem to have to play tunes they know everyone else cannot join in with...

I thought these things were supposed to be fun... so why bring in the Session Police to spoil it, PP?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:34 AM

Oh, and I also agree with all the others who posted whilst I was posting!! ;^))


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Watson
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:39 AM

I have noticed recently an attempt by singers to pervert the meaning ...
Are you saying there's some sort of conspiracy by these evil singers to invade your world and oust the musicians from their rightful positions?
I go to sessions that have been called sessions for years. Some nights there are more songs, some there are more tunes - it depends on who turns up and what they feel like doing.
I have never encountered anyone on an ego trip, and I have never known anyone forced to shut up.
PP, I've heard you play and enjoyed it, you'd be welcome at any of the sessions I go to - you could even talk while I sing if you want to, but I don't think I'd feel inclined to buy you a pint if you bring that attitude with you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:51 AM

PP,

Language changes constantly. No particular word is immune to meaning drift. You can't stop it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:56 AM

Maybe not but it's worth a try.
PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: songs2play
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:57 AM

Way to go Watson. I'm with you all the way.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:59 AM

On the other hand you get the people who say that incompetent joiners-in ruin things, and the unaccomplished singers who object to accompaniment...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: clansfolk
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:59 AM

I have noticed recently an attempt by singers to pervert the meaning of Session to mean, "Sing around".

Surely a "session" (presuming you to mean a music session) is just a group getting together to make music whether sequentially or simultaneously or with or without vocals makes no difference, unless the original meaning of a session has been perverted by "instrument players"?

session (noun) -

1. a meeting devoted to a particular activity "a filming session"; "a gossip session"

2. a meeting for execution of a group's functions "it was the opening session of the legislature"

3. a meeting of spiritualists "the seance was held in the medium's parlor" Synonyms: seance, sitting

4. the time during which a school holds classes "they had to shorten the school term" Synonyms: school term, academic term, academic session


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:00 AM

for many people the word "session" has no connection with any kind of music at all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM

Talking and diddley: most folks could discuss recipies for a proper cheesecake or solve complex mathematical equations while playing "Morrison's Jig" or "Happy to Meet, Sore is My Part" but you can't talk and sing at the same time. Shushing happens during tunes too, if anyone around cares to actually listen. It doesn't happen very often though.

We've called our sessions sessions for years. They're mixed (tunes and songs) and they aren't 'sing-arounds', they're free-for-alls. Occasional ego trips - long, long songs without choruses or long sets of tunes nobody else knows and can't figure out because the player made sure they're in Flatulian Mode. (The best guys will introduce new tunes, then shift to something others know.) We normally duct tape these people and stand them up in a corner for the duration of the evening.

The longer I make music, the more stuff I find that irritates me, and it makes the music not fun. The more stuff I do, the more I break other people's rules or fear that I will, and it makes the music not fun. I wish I could go back to when I was 17 years old and I and my friends didn't give a rat's ass about any rules except "if it's fun and doesn't hurt anyone, do it." Problem is, that "hurt anyone" bit has been blurred into "cause anyone to get their panties in a bunch." Someone else's bunched panties should NOT be my problem!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM

I'm not a member of the session police.
If I start a tune set my aim is that it should involve as many people as possible; the more play the better the buzz. I usually carry with me to sessions I attend regularly sheet music for the tunes that I play that are less common, and if anybody is interested they get a copy, or if they want I'll record it on a cassette.

PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Grab
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:07 AM

Hmm. Plenty of sessions of that definition are just an exercise in willy-waving. "Do you not know this song? Then keep quiet! Can you not play it at 2000bpm? Then keep quiet!" Ego trip city! Or equally, you can get ppl playing who can't remember the tune or who aren't proficient enough on their instrument to make it work. And a session of the sing-around variety can hardly emphasise the audience/performer situation if the "performer" changes every song (and if, as often is the case, half the pub are singing along).

Besides, the word "session" merely means a time when something is being done. The perversion is from that original meaning to what you think it means.

Nice troll, PP. Maybe you should be a guest? ;-)

Graham.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Vince
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:34 AM

Hmmm, now here's a thread to excercise (or exorcise) the ego. I think MMario's got it right. Seems to me PP's the one with the biggest ego. Not that that's bad, to be a successful performer in any field of entertainment i reckon, whether singing, dancing, playing, stand-up comedy whatever, requires a confidence and ego pretty well above the average. Not everyone can be a Martin Carthy, Bert Jansch or Pied Piper and some just like to 'give it a go'. As for no talking while someone is performing, i think its called 'politeness' and 'good manners' PP! I attend a 'session' (informal gathering as opposed to organised folk club) in a pub bar in Middleton every Monday where ther's singing and playing. There's often talking around the bar (and noisy darts match in the 'tap room') but if a particular quiet song or tune is being played one of the players usually taps a glass and the people 'round the bar' usually quieten down out of politeness. It works well. Maybe we shoul stop bloody categorising so much and just enjoy the craic (probably spelt that wrong aswell)!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:34 AM

PP Why not just stick to the Perversion???
It might be fun!
Quack!
GtD.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:35 AM

The fact that musicians can play tunes while thinking about somthing else doen't mean they should, and your implication that the tunes you mention are so banal that you can't bring them to life, is an excuse for your own inability.

PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:54 AM

Pied Piper - did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:55 AM

Temper temper!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:57 AM

Up to now the word session has included many different types: Music, Song, Poetry, Story Telling etc. These major categories can often be broken down further. For instance song could include: Shanties, Ballads, West Gallery/Sacred Harp etc, and music could be split into Irish, Scottish, English Country Dance Band, Bluegrass, Morris, etc.
My feeling is that it is Pied Piper who is trying to hijack the word - probably to fit a very narrow band that happens to be his own personal interest.

Provided that the content and aims of a session are declared, then anything which fits into the stated range is admissable. If you don't want singers in your session, then make it clear from the start - they'll go somewhere else. For example the session which happens once a month near Southwark Street is specifically for English Country Dance Band music. Personally, I prefer a well run mixed sessions like some of the ones we manage at The Moreton Village Festival.

My pet gripe about sessions is the need some people seem to have to play tunes they know everyone else cannot join in with...
If you only have tunes that everybody is capable of playing, the session will soon become boring and stagnant. Perhaps you won't be able to play along first time, but if you like the tune enough, you'll soon learn it and thus increase your repertoire. Part of a session should be listening to other people performing, sometimes so other members can learn something and sometimes to give less experienced members a chance to play something themselves without getting drowned out by others.

Song sessions do tend to be different. Most singers would expect to sing the verse on their own rather than with every joining in, although participation (unison or harmony) in the chorus is usually welcomed. Instrumental accompaniment should be at the discretion of the singer. If a singer has a quiet voice a crowd of melodeons, fiddles, and bodhrans will probably completely drown them out. If accompanying musicians are sympathethic to the timing, phrasing, and nuances of the singer, they can be a great help, but many times they want to play at their own speed and rhythm all the time. If Pied Piper would like to hear just how sensitively a whistle player can accompany a singer, he should try going to a session with mudcatter "Leadfingers" around (how about that I'm complimenting you Terry).

Incidently, when I choose to sing a song unaccompanied, it's because I want it that way - not because I can't play my own backing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: andymac
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:07 AM

Ever sat in on a session where there's only super-fast, wall to wall tunes all bloody night? The problem often is that big "instrumental sessions" end up being just that. Anyone wanting to sing is occasionally tolerated if it's a short song, then it's straight back to the playing or more often than not, simply ignored.
I would prefer to hear music and song, but frankly the ego problem exists with the musicians who think they are the only ones who should be allowed to decide what goes on in a session; PP being an example of just that.
Has he never heard a badly played fiddle, or a set of pipes drowning out everything else? Don't think that all the poor quality exists only in singing sessions....

PS I didn't get out of bed on the wrong side today..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:18 AM

Dave, nowhere in my post did I say that it was impossible to accompany a song with a subtly played whistle, or that singers were incapable of backing themselves and I am in no need of your patronising education.
You clearly thought that if you invented some statements I did not make you could deal with them in stead of those actually in the post, an all to common tactic here, but very transparent.

PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:22 AM

Get out of bed the wrong side today, PP?

Can you give some examples of this conspiracy you have spotted ...by singers to pervert the meaning of Session... ? What would be the purpose of singers doing this? An attempt to turn all of your beloved sessions into dreaded singarounds? I don't get it.

The one example you jumped at on the Ormskirk thread was nothing of the sort, and seems to be a case of you seeing what you want to see.

You obviously have problems with singers generally, and a divisive attitude to instrumental/vocal music, an attitude I detest. I play in instrumental seesions and sing in singarounds and other formats of singing groups, but my favourite grouping is the sort of mixed session exemplified by the DeanMeister's session in the Sun, Beverley, which is a combination of solo tunes and those for joining in, and solo songs and those for joining in, and where respect is shown by instrumentalists and singers for each other.

You seem to have no respect for anyone who doesn't fit into your strict definitions. Anyway, why should it bother you if singers wish to run singarounds in the way you have described (though I've never been to one that was anything like the one you seem to have experience of- where was it?) since you would obviously not choose to spend any time at one?

There are so many points you make (in an ill-tempered and abusive fashion) that I could take you up on, but from your answers so far to replies on this thread you're obviously not in a mood listen to others' points of view so I'd only be wasting my typing.

After this outburst of yours I'll steer well clear of any sessions that have any connection with you- a shame, as I have enjoyed hearing you play.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:23 AM

Andymac, this is my point entirely sessions are for people to play collectively most of the time with occasional solos, if you don't like it stay away, and don't try to hijack the session.
PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:26 AM

The biggest audience/musician gap occurs with tunes. Audiences can sing and can join choruses, but if they had instruments, they wouldn't be in the audience. My biggest problem with instruments vs. singing is people who think there's some sort of war going on between them. If the session is instruments only or mixed, just tell people!

Dave, yep on the tunes that others don't know. Like I mentioned, the best way is to do something new, then go into something old. Sometimes folks bring sheet music and sometimes they just play the tunes each week until others catch on. I'm not great at hearing a tune and being able to play it, but I can usually catch most of it, so my skills are improving. Good practice at learning by ear.

I tend to be bored easily and I'm occasionally sick of a tune as soon as I manage to learn it. I love improvisation. That said, there's something wonderful about playing a good old tune with a bunch of good players and getting the rhythm going solid and strong. I believe it was Jon Freeman who called it 'floating'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:29 AM

We're having the same problem with our new lunchtime, er, folk club: the musicians' fears that it will turn into a singaround seem to be coming true, while the singers are worried that they won't get a fair crack of the whip if somebody keeps jumping in with a tune just as they try to start a song. The solution proposed is to dedicate one meeting a month as a dedicated tune session, and the others as song and/or music sessions.

If we say "music session" or "song session", no-one will be under any misaprehension. All in favour...?

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:38 AM

Noreen.
Red herring No 1
I did not use the term conspiracy.
Red herring No2
As you know my comment on the Ormskirk thread was about a posting that used the term Session without qualification
Red herring No3
Nowhere in my post did I say I did not like vocal music.
And finally the emotional blackmail.
Oh what a naughty boy I've been.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Vince
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:39 AM

Ere, Ere, Noreen & Steve Parker!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: clansfolk
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:43 AM

little boxes......................?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM

Jeri this is my point, people need to know what the event is, and to use the word that has been used for years to mean an instrumental get together in a Pub without qualification is not helping things.
PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM

Hey Up John you don't have talk a load of cobblers, be very careful when you get off that high horse


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:48 AM

Did you mean half.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:55 AM

Does it make a difference whether you spell it in English ("session") or Irish ("seisun," or something like that, with an accent or two)?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:56 AM

Nope. A session is a session.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:59 AM

HEY! I take exception to a couple of comments above... singers and musicians. Singers ARE musicians. Their instrument is their voice. Likewise SONGS are a type of music. So calling something a "music session" does not exclude songs and singers. Now "tune session" could be argued to do so...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:04 PM

heloo,i,prefer,mixed,sessions,[songs,and,tunes].john


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Rich A
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:14 PM

Hey, MMario. Are you say that singers arn't tuneful? :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:17 PM

no - but it is commonly accepted that a "tune" is instrumental while a "song" has lyrics and is sung.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:26 PM

PP I was not trying to claim that you did make certain statements. My main gripe at your opening post was the fact that I believe that a singaround is a type of session. I agree wholeheartedly with Clansfolk's statement:

Surely a "session" (presuming you to mean a music session) is just a group getting together to make music whether sequentially or simultaneously or with or without vocals makes no difference

My coments were not all directed at you by any means, and I admit that some were made in order to pre-empt some of the comments that have been made by anti-singer musicians in the past. Anyway I will address some of the statements that you have made.

The "sing around", more accurately defined as a self-indulgent rotational Ego trip, is something completely different stressing as it does the, them and us/ performer audience, dichotomy.

The audience can usually join in with choruses in singarounds, but unless the tunes are played at a proper dance tempo, it is very unlikely that they would be able to participate in a music session other than with simple percussion - ie shaky eggs etc.

Another important difference is the deferential attitude non-participants are required to show, not conversing, while someone who thinks it un-necessary to sing the song in the same key from start to finish, and can't be bothered to learn the 7th verse, though they've been singing it for 20 years, murders a beautiful ballad.
At least we who play in Sessions don't force the non-combatants to shut up while we're playing.


Music can work quite happily as a background entertainment (like MUZAK), but the words of songs usually need to be listened to. Singers can't all produce the same sort of volume that a group of melodeons and fiddles are capable of, and many songs would be completely spoilt if they were sung at full volume. Your coment about omitting the 7th verse shows a complete lack of understanding about folk song - ballads especially. Try comparing versions of the same ballad in the Child collection - singers have always chosen which verses they do/don't sing. As for a singer's skill, we can't all be perfect - I can think of quite a few fiddlers whose intonation and timing are attrocious - even when they've got fixed-pitch instruments to keep in tune with.

Finally, I can think of quite a few session musicians whose egos are such that they will always try to force a tune into the tempo and style that they play it - irrespective of the way that someone started it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:28 PM

A music session's just meant a get-together here for as long as I've known the term and one listens or asks to find out what the 'rules' are. I'm quite familiar with the fact that if you say 'session' in Ireland or Irish music circles, you mean intruments-only, but the word really does have different meanings depending on location and culture.

It sounds like your 'bad side of the bed' experience might have something to do with someone trying to hijack a session you play in. You'd expect musicians to perhaps ask what sort of music happens before they go or at least listen to figure out what's going on. It ain't the word that's the problem - it's people's social skills.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:28 PM

not to mention the (unasked) accompianists who try to force the SINGER into their own preferred tempo and variation!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:29 PM

So what did this whole thread prove?

Sessions? sing arounds?   songs? tunes?

So much analyzing.
So little music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: andymac
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:32 PM

What a load of bull PP, folk music is for everyone to enjoy, audience and participants. If you are wanting an cliqueish series of tune only events, where only those who conform to your setup take part, why don't you just stay away and let the rest of us get on with being collective?
Have a house-party instead and invite who you want.. meanwhile we'll all be in the pub, singing and listening to music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: smallpiper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:43 PM

In my experience a session was a gathering of instrumentalists and a sing around was exactly that. There has been language drift so that session means anything and everything (and yes I know that to some people session can mean somthing else entirely but as we are talking music....) so now we need to be more precise. The trouble with some (and I mean some) mixed sessions is the prevelance of bad manners. Vocalists expect to be listened to and talk over people playing tunes - that really pisses me off ok when there are a lot of people playing but not ok when people are playing slow airs.

Also a session is a gathering at which you can learn new stuff, be it tunes or songs and I for one try my best to encourage beginners at sessions - its the only way to keep the music alive.

So I guess I'm with Pied Piper on this(to a degree) but at the same time am realistic enough to accept that things have now changed.

And why havn't we met yet Pied Piper?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Watson
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:44 PM

...so what I'm going to do is advertise a session to lure all the innocent unsuspecting players of tunes in, but when they get there there will be songs - their fate will be sealed, unable to cope with words and music together, they will collapse writhing on the floor. Reduced to dust, the landlord will sweep them out with the cigarette ash in the morning and the rest of us cackle maniacally and call our singarounds sessions without fear of anyone whingeing any more.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:56 PM

Red herring No 1 ?
That's why I put the word conspiracy in my own words, and not in the italic quote from you, PP.

Red herring No2 ?
Neither of us know what was in the mind of the person who talked about sessions in that post (or do you?), but you see an attempt to pervert its meaning- ARE there no instrumental sessions at Ormaskirk then, as you imply?

Red herring No3 ? (Best one yet)
Nowhere in my post did I say you did not like vocal music. What I said was You obviously have problems with singers generally, and a divisive attitude to instrumental/vocal music, which seems pretty obvious from your rant.

And finally the emotional blackmail.
Huh? That's because I threaten never to go to your session again??
And I never knew you cared! *grin*

Play some nice tunes, cool down and you'll feel better (OK, and I'll stop being patronising too.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:28 PM

I think it's terrible the way the word "animal" has being hijacked by people who don't realise that the word actually means a small furry creature who goes "miaow" - you find people using the same word to describe big grey creatures with trunks, or hairy baboons or little mice, and even things with wings and feathers

I've nothing against all these other creatures - but don't go callng them "animals" when they don't go "miaow", because that can be really confusing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:51 PM

LOL Watson & McG :0)
smallpiper, a certain mutual friend was planning to bring you over to PP's session in Manchester, but then his plans changed...

PP, I was brought up in Irish music circles in Liverpool, where a session meant mostly but not exclusively instrumental music, played together as you suggest.
After two or three sets of tunes, there would be a song (unaccompanied, traditional) from one of the players, or a call for a song from one of the 'audience' who was known to be a singer.

So, your definition of a session is valid for you, and mine is valid for me. I don't expect every session to be run the same way, it depends on who's running it and what their definition of a session is.

Joan has said on the Ormskirk thread that she talks about sessions which would include singing but any instumentalists who turned up would be very welcome also. Perhaps if someone is as specific as you as to what their definition is, then the word session should be qualified by eg.'instrumental only'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 02:57 PM

Well,Pied Piper, I know a lot of sessions can be spoiled by insensitive singers(or tune players) but I really cant let you get away wth the basis of your argument: that "session" used to mean "tune session" but has recently been perverted in meaning to include singers. You may always use the word to mean "tune session", but that is emphatically not the history of the term. How old are you? I rather fancy I might have been going to song sessions, song and tune sessions, and tune sessions(and witnessed the associated argy-bargying) longer than you.
   I'm not saying I disagree with you about what constitutes a good session, or good manners at a session(I dont know you). But I sure as hell know you are completely wrong on the historical meaning of the word.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 03:58 PM

Oakley's in Brazil


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: smallpiper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 07:56 PM

Bolloxs Greg - playing the age card is a red herring. A session historically has been a gathering of tune smiths and it is only recently that it has included singing. I've been involved in trad music for 45 years and my father before me and a sesion has always (in terms of me and my dad which would be about 90 years) been about tunes. Having said that I repeat that I (for one) accept the change in the meaning and advise pp to do he same. In the words of Chinua Achebie "Things fall apart".

PS Oakley is not in Brazil he is in China


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Bassic
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:36 PM

PP- I met you only the once, at the end of a "session" in central Manchester, on return to my car, the window was broken and my CD player was stolen!! But that is annother story :-) I found you passionate about your music and indeed, you gave me several coppies of tunes that I found interesting and thoughtfull of you. Thank you. And yes, your view of what constitutes a "session" is what I always understood to be the traditional view.

Noreen and SP- Yes, mea culpa. Did mention PP to you SP but should remedy the lack of introduction. Are you ready for the invasion Noreen and PP? Something for the Autumn perhaps?

Mixed Sessions- I think this is where the crossover and "borrowing of terms" has started. I have enjoyed mixed sessions that have been run like singarounds and those that have been like tune sessions (less structured). The problem, as always, is one of simple manners and self awareness. Every session/singaround/mixed session has its own interpretaion of the "rules". They come about through custom and practice and also depend on the extent to which they are "contoled" by the organiser. Understanding the "rules" requires a brain, experience and tact. Not everyone has them in full measure. Especialy when we play in a situation that is not familiar to us. (as a guest or at festival events or gatherings).

I am glad that there are organs such as Mudcat where these issues, and peoples frustrations with them, can be aired. Its not a case of having to get personal to make a point, its about becoming aware of other peoples viewpoints, "how do they see the same situation". Its how we learn about the way things are changing around us and learn to cope and adapt. We are all here for the same reason I hope. To preserve, develope and respect the kind of music we all share and enjoy. Amen.

.......................we will now sing hymn number 46


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 02:52 AM

Bollox indeed to you Smallpiper. Pied Piper's argument(and yours) depends on the word "session" having originally meant "tune session". That's why my playing the age card is perfectly relevant. It is a FACT that when I was young "sessions" could refer to singing. Maybe they didnt in your part of the world, but they did in mine. So anybody is perfectly entitled to use the word session to include songs, and not be accused by Pied Piper of perverting the meaning of the word. But here is another possibility,I agree, which is that Pied Piper is much older than me, and that he is referring to an era before mine when he was around and session meant tune session. Tha's why I asked his age.: it's kind of critical: whichever one of us is older, their definition of session takes precedence in historical terms.
    I'm not talking about what makes a good session, or how to behave at them. I am quoting a fact, not an opinion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 03:20 AM

Ok Greg so my da was using the term (so he told me)when he was a lad in the 1920's (and his da before him in the 18 sumits)to mean a "tune session" if you added singing (and possibly some dncing) then it became a ....(wait for it) .... a Celidh. So do I win on the historical precedence bit?

However non of this alters the fact that the usage has changed, quicker than our understanding has, so we have to accept it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 03:35 AM

My extremely brief foray into sociology in the 80s taught me that describing the batantly obvious can often bring one's attention to points that are so obvious as to be unconsidered ... so here goes:

* When a singer sings a song, no-one can join in except in chorus lines (if any), because every verse is different, and only the repeated lines are join-inable; the song is of fixed length and stops when it reaches the end.
* A tune, having no words, is the same all the way through: everything is repeated, and everyone can join in all the time; it goes on for as long or short a time as the players like (American style), or convention indicates (GB style).
* If a player wants to play in a song session, s/he will be essentially a solo performer; if a singer wants to sing at a music session, s/he will be preventing everyone else from joining in.
* Not all singers can play an instrument, and not all musicians can sing.

On the whole, I feel it would be rather unfair for a singer to expect singaround treatment at a music-only session: that's not what the musicians are there for. As a singer, I have to agree that it really is a self-indulgent ego trip!

Back to the blatantly obvious: if we all impress the distinction on our friends (and enemies!) there will be fewer occasions for misunderstanding and falling-out.

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 03:53 AM

I'm not a folk club attender so I am uniquely equipped to display the depth of my ignorance (again). Is this a peculiarly UK phenomenon? Our transatlantic friends don't seem to have this problem. Is there no place for an MC or session leader to ensure both sides (and does it have to be opposing sides?) get a fair share of time? Personally, I'm not fond enough of either a capella singing or country dance tunes to want to spend an evening listening to wholy one or the other. I prefer songs with instrumental accompaniment with occasional instrumentals or solo singers.
These anngst-ridden gatherings don't sound much FUN!

RtS
(I'll stick to the jazz, blues & skiffle sessions- sighs of relief from the folk community)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 04:06 AM

memo to self: USE THE PREVIEW FACILITY. Sorry about extended italics and mis-spelling of angst!

RtS
(thick as a constipated turd)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Trevor
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 04:12 AM

Well I'm glad somebody has cleared up what a 'session' is then! Silly me, I thought they were about music - the style (tunes or songs) being defined by the attendees. It sounds like I'm a lucky boy in that the places I go to usually have a good mix of both and that the people who share their music are interested in just that - the music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 04:42 AM

Perhaps I should play the age card as well. Towards the end of the 60s, I went to several musical evenings at a pub called "The Butt and Oyster" at Pin Mill, Suffolk. I was first invited by Bob Roberts, who besides being the skipper of the last working Sailing Barge "Cambria" was also a singer, melodeon player, and poet - I can also recall him stepdancing on a tabletop too. These entertainments were definitely referred to as "Sessions", yet they combined song, music and sometimes poetry and music too. Solos were quite common and frequently requested. The instruments included Melodeons, Fiddles, and Hammer Dulcimers. Instrumentalists would be quite selective about which tunes they joined in on, so there was a variety in the sound produced for different sets. Most of the participants were old boys who had been playing for years. They were wonderful evenings and I think that Reg Hall recorded some of them. This somehow doesn't sound like PP's definition of session.

Perhaps we should stop saying "Shanty Session" or "West Gallery Session" - and is PP going to make sure that the Oxford Dictionary tighten up their rather loose definition of the word.

In my humble opinion, any activity which takes place over a fixed period of time is a "session".

Anyway I think I've had enough of this discussion session - oh whoops - wash my mouth out with soap - after all discusion is an activity when people all speak separately and egos are often very much to the fore !


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:37 AM

Thanks for your contributions folks.
I hope this has cleared a few things up.
I don't know why we've never met Smallpiper; are you a regular at the Ull Sessions?

And finally

I would rather have Sex than watch somebody doing it.

All the best PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: clansfolk
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:44 AM

" this is my point, people need to know what the event is, and to use the word that has been used for years to mean an *instrumental get together in a Pub without qualification is not helping things.
PP


Having attended "music sessions" since the late 50's and my Father ran "session" way back from the 20's (various styles of music) - in all that time a session has meant what has been said previously by me (and others) simply a get together.

Now I agree with you PP that if and event is advertised it should include any provisos put on it by the organiser/s   e.g. Instrumentals only, No Singers allowed, No more than one Bodhran at any one time to be played, No eggs, etc. etc. ad nausea......

To me the word "session" being incorrectly used in the context of a Musical Instrument playing only session, came about with the influx of Irish Music Pubs and the crossing over of many local bands from Folk to Irish and the "in" use of the term "craic" - of course this was like the influx of American music and protest songs in the sixties along with pseudo American accents being adopted....

As for not being allowed to use a word in its original form because "others" have deemed it to be meaning something else well slang is slang! and I'm still happy to be Gay and heterosexual!

Use the English Language to describe your event properly or don't be so bigoted and insular



* I can't find this definition even in my slang dictionary..... please refer me to your source


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:52 AM

My bit FWIW; a Session is for music (heads down and go for it) and a Singaround is exactly what it says on the tin.

Having been to a Session, sung a song and seen the expression on the faces and the volume of the sighs, I have learnt which is which. Nowadays, if I want to go to a session, I phone the organiser first and ask his opinion.

Sal


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:59 AM

If something is described as a session with no qualifier, I would assume it to be instrumental only. However I think it is perfectly proper to talk about a song session, or a mixed session as long as these qualifiers are included to show what to expect.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:19 AM

Of course even if the default meaning of session is an instrumental one (I don't subscribe to the late Sir Thomas Beeching's snide categorisation of Musicians and Singers) then perhaps you still need further description. The English Country Danceband Music session at Southwark would not suit many Irish Style musicians at all. Neither would one which specialised in Playford tunes or one I know at Eastwick which is mainly Bluegrass. I hope that the word does not come to mean only Irish music as many of our local ones seem to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: IanC
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:31 AM

Well, the use of "session" to describe music is only fairly recent anyway. For most of my life, "session" by itself would have described a Drinking Session ... no music at all.

With reference to music, I have only ever understood "music session" or "session" to mean a period of time during which musical things happen.

Why try to narrow the meaning?

:-(


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:42 AM

Maybe the 'organisers' should provide venues for every artform. At my local festival, it has devolved that the session (PP's definition) lovers play a lot of Irish tunes, and fair play to them, but they always take over the most comfortable venue, by persistance and volume. The rest of the enthusiasts, be they blues, trad, dancers etc., have to make do with tents or tiny corners. If it rains, they will have to put up with it or invade the 'sessionist' comfort.
Most people seem to be able to enjoy a certain amount of instrumental, but they NEED songs.
I'd says PP is right, though, about a session being musical. The language changes constantly. We used to have unaccompanied songs, (only posh people had A Capella,) and singarounds, and cracks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:47 AM

I sure am PP.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 07:43 AM

Interesting debate... For my part, I would consider "together" the key word for a session, i.e. that whether we are talking about songs or tunes, for the most part, people would be joining in at the same time. I would not consider a sing around where people take in turns to sing a song to be a session even if others did join in with choruses.

My preference in sessions is towards largely or even entirely instrumental sessions and take a different view to andymac. I'd like to think any session I go to is welcoming to all who wish to participate in whatever type of session is being run. I fail to see though why any session should be considered cliquish if they happen to focus on one area of music or on tunes as opposed to songs. My attitude with that is if you like what a session is about, great - enjoy it but if you don't, try elsewhere and don't protest.

McGrath, you said:

'And there are story-telling sessi0ns and dance sessions for that matter.

"Session" just means you're sitting down together...'

I'm intrigued by the idea of sitting down together to dance ;-)

Jeri, I think it was Cap't Bob who started the "Floating" thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 07:47 AM

I must agree with the sentiment if not the diplomatic way it was worded PP:-) As a participant in both, an attendee and an organiser of 20+ years standing I do believe we need to make these things clear. It always used to be session=communal music singaroung=individual singing and music. Makes my life easier if people stick to that!

Imaging the fuss if 500 kids turned up to a rave and found it was a school disco! Or if the Playford brigade went to a ceilidh to find it was line dancing...

I like to keep things simple. Like me. Anyway PP - don't worry about singers jumping in is sessions. Just make sure you have them huge war pipes with you to help them out;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 07:49 AM

If I ever talk about a session to somebody who doesn't know about the particular event in question, I always qualify it by describing it. I've seen this confusion happen too many times.

As for decreeing that a session means a tune session - I'm sorry, but nobody gets to absolutely define what's what in folk music. Anyone with such a totally rigid idea of the meaning of the term "session" (whichever meaning that is) needs to get out more.

As to tunes-only sessions being described as elitist - no, that's not the point. There are many different kinds of sessions - from pure singarounds to tunes-only. Some are run by an MC, others are jump in when you feel like it. An English music session is different from an Irish session is different from a bluegrass session - not just the music, but the conventions like how many times a tune is played etc.
I welcome this variety, and reject the pleadings that it's all folk music and anyone should expect to be welcome to do anything anywhere. THAT's just another particular type of session: I've been to some like that and they have their limitations too.

Live and let live, that's what I say.

If you don't like the way a particular session runs itself, and enough people agree with you, start another one. And if not enough people agree with you... draw your own conclusions.

Anahata
(who has been to a regular monthly round-the-room that welcomed step dancing and story telling as well as songs and tunes but explicitly banned guitars and bodhrans. It takes all sorts. That one doesn't run any more, not suprisingly)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:06 AM

Well, if I have read this argument(??) right, because Pied Piper and Smallpiper's da use(d) the word "session" to mean a "tune session(Irish), this gives them the right to turn up at the Red Lion session in Market Drayton and demand that we stop singing and all play Banish Misfortune and the High Reel ensemble. Or have I missed the point somewhere?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: 8ch(pl)
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:32 AM

I play in a "Song Circle" with the Harbour Folk society at the ferry terminal in Dartmouth Nova Scotia each Wednesday evening. We have been there about 3 years and I started 2 years ago.

We need all of the musicians who show up. There have been times when there was just me and one other member. She doesn't play an instrument, I play mandolin. Last night we had a nice session with 7 participants. We also had an audience moving through during the 2 1/2 hous that we were there.

Since I started in this, my first public venue I have had to adapt my playing to accompany instrumental and voice presentation in virtually all keys. For my part I believe I have grown a great deal because of the times I have been out. Work has recently kept me from it, but for now I am back at it.

I would like to say that there is no problems with our group. There is some music which I do not try to accompany, but for the most part we all try to act as a session band no matter who's turn it is. We have become friends through this. If you like someone, you should overlook their little faults. I hope the others do so with mine.

Glen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:42 AM

Thanks Greg. I do believe that I said we should accept the fact that the meaning of the word has changed (you seem to be ignoring that one).   And who said it was Irish music? I said tunes. I did not specify any ethnicity. And I wouldn't dream of turning up at anyones session and demand anything at all (other than good manners).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:12 AM

"the meaning of the word has changed"

Strikes me if its changed its been a question of it cahnging back to its traditional meaning. Or maybe it never cahnged at all except in some people's patch.

"Fellowship is Life. Lack of fellowship is death" - William Morris wrote that. He wasn't talking about music and siomnging, but he might have been.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:21 AM

I dont think the meaning of the word has changed at all. Its just that some people seem to think it ought to mean "just tunes", even if it didnt mean that a while ago. Tell you what, if you mean "tune session" say "tune session". If you mean "poker session" say "poker session". then we'll all know what we're talking about.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:27 AM

Take your own advice Greg isn't that what PP was complaining of in the first place? Or have I got bored and lost it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:39 AM

I advertise the two Sessions that we started recently in central Manchester as instrumental Sessions, which I think is quite clear. That doesn't mean that if someone turned up and sang a song I'd stop them, it just means that the balance is well on the tune side.
Now if there were singing Sessions were every one joined in on most of the songs, or people sang cannons or part arrangements I'd love to attend, and sing, but that doesn't happen (well at least not yet).

PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Noreen
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 02:08 PM

Something approaching that does happen, PP, at some 'singarounds' eg the Middle Bar at Sidmouth and some pub singarounds at festivals, eg the White Lion at the recent Upton festival (and anywhere where Shellbacks gather!). At these singarounds, songs (with the odd exception) will be chorus songs, the choruses being joined in with vociferously(!) by all present. In this environment I would lead a chorus song when my turn comes, because I know that most people there want to join in and not just listen.

Other places I sing (eg the Arden Arms in Stockport tonight) I am happy to sing a ballad or a quiet lyrical song, with no chorus, because I know that the others there will enjoy listening to that sort of song, for the beauty of the song and its delivery (it is to be hoped) and NOT expect or wish to join in every song.

Perhaps it demands the suspension of ones own ego to be able to enjoy listening to somebody else performing and not have to join in? Please don't think that's a personal dig at you, more me thinking out loud, and leading on from a converstion about a related matter I had recently.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Vince
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 04:12 PM

I'll be at Saddleworth festival next weekend (18-20th)..where there's always some good sing-a-rounds or 'come-all-yehs' (especially the late Sat'day neet one in the C**///tive club and survivors session at the cross keys). I was at the Poyton festival where there were sing-a-rounds and (mostly instumental) music sessions. Noreen, again, is absolutely right. There's room for all. It's all about how individuals express the music and song as they feel and see it. As i've said previously, its all about tolerance, good manners and sharing. Maybe its a lack of those virtues in some people that has contributed to the apparent decline in folk clubs over the years. Its a great shame. Its 2003, are we ever going to grow up!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: clansfolk
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 04:13 PM

WARNING

I've just received the latest list for what's going on and where during the Fylde Folk Festival 2003:

It would appear the John and I (Penny Black) will be running a "session" at the Victoria on Saturday noon...... now anyone who know us will be aware that we don't do a lot of tunes!!! (maybe the odd dill pickers (sic) or Foggy Mountain/duelling banjos - with an Irish accent) - so If its still in the programme in August and you decide to "pop-in" don't expect music only!!!!!

NB anyone wishing to sue F.F.F. under the trade description act should contact Mr A Bell :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 04:43 AM

I'm with Ian C & the drinking session *grin*

What a hot topic! As I'm moving to another area soon I'm hoping to seek and find acoustic music of all kinds and will be especially interested in how these events are described. Being unable to play an instrument I'll be mostly looking for 'singarounds' and 'mixed sessions', although I'll be glad to tap my feet at 'instrumental sessions' too.

While on my search I hope to find musicians (including singers) to enjoy music with in my new local area. If there are no 'singarounds' or 'mixed sessions' then perhaps a 'tune session' may evolve into a 'mixed session' & we can blend our skills and knowledge together. Although I mainly sing ballads (through years of singing in the privacy of my own home) I'll be concentratiing on finding good chorus songs to sing so that we can all make a good sound together.

May we always have music.....
Hil


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:13 AM

We were disussing this last night. When I first started singing, back in the late 60s, there weren't any sessions, and I don't remember singarounds either: you went to a folk club and asked for a floor spot. Non-singing solo musicians were a rarity, and there was no way you could join in a tune. In fact, I don't recall hearing of music sssions till I came down to Bucks about six years ago. Maybe they just don't have them in the Midlands? Maybe they do, but nobody told me!

"Session" does indeed come from a root that means "sitting"; "avocado" comes from a root that means "lawyer". Etymology is a two-edged weapon ...

Hil, where are you going? I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback about ... let's call them "venues"!

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:17 AM

If Linda and I have a Sex Session does it mean that we've got to let everyone else join in ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:33 AM

Steve - either Huntingdon or Surrey, not sure yet, but I'll definitely be asking around about 'venues' *giggle*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,orange utan
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:05 AM

well, its alright for them that have lots of sessions near 'em. Kind of been stuck with Folk Clubs in Exeter, so I've been trying to set one up.

So for anyone interested "Mostly Music Session" 25th July, North Bridge Inn.
(singing/dancing encouraged, depends on how the drinking's going)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:06 AM

Dave -- only if they sit down!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,BDog
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 01:13 PM

In the thirty something years I've been involved in folk music the word session when unqualified, has usually, but not exclusively, been used to indicate a music session. Throughout that time I've not noticed any shift in that loose interpretation. The word singaround either appears to be a far more recent term, or it's use has geographically spread. So what were we doing before we had singarounds?

What I didn't understand until now, was it's true meaning of singaraound:

'The "sing around", more accurately defined as a self-indulgent rotational Ego trip, is something completely different stressing as it does the, them and us/ performer audience, dichotomy.'

Thanks PP for clearing that up. I'll keep it in mind the next time a musician joins in with a song too loud, in the wrong key, at the wrong speed, and unable to cope with time signiture variates. It is, of course, the musician that is right, and all the singers fault for being on an ego trip.

Me forget the 7th verse for the last 20 years? Hell no! It's the 6th that I've consistantly forgotten! However, I do distinctly remember hearing a musicians session the other night where they missed the 7th verse out of every tune. I was obliged to hum one extra verse at the end of every tune (attemping to stay in the correct key of course) just to make things tally for the song/tune police.

You stick with your tight little pigeon holes if thats what makes you comfortable. Personnally, I like the fuzzy old world, where you don't know what you're getting until it happens. It's people like you who are buggering it up.

Brian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: IanC
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:35 AM

There's an interesting use of the word session to describe a contest of poetic wit (possibly sung), in a song "A Sessions of Wit", Merry Drollery - 1st part - (1661) pp68-72

"A session was held the other day ..."

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Lanfranc
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:46 PM

Missed this first time around.

Pied Piper = petty sessions judge!

Alan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: TS
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:59 PM

I'm pretty certain that "Sessions", "Jams", "kitchen parties", and all the likes were created for fun, for the order of good times as Cartier put it well enough. Whatever happened that sessions had to become full of spites, jealousies, ignorances, and arrogances alike. Its about the simple little trait we learned long ago as children. Sharing. I used to partake in a regular weekly session at a pub. Many of the local Comhaltas members came out and it was great. Soon the session became a Comhaltas "practice" and those of us who were not members were almost shunned. I was invited to become a Comhaltas member but I couldnt because I was an "always on the road" musician. I was frowned upon after that and thus ended my desires to participate in Sessions and its unfortunate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:35 PM

"Many of the local Comhaltas members came out" ...

An excellent example of the way in which innovations in the way language is used can have tricky consequences. Which is what this strange thread was all about, really.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: erinmaidin
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:24 AM

I have to admit that I scanned through most of the posts and probably didn't spend as much time as I should have , evaluating..measuring words...playing with semantics, etc. but I've only an average of 70 yrs. on this planet and who has time?!
I did get an impression that many believe that sessions in Ireland would not include singing. There is nothing more rewarding and exciting (to me) than someone from the village being coaxed into releasing an absolute jewel of a song into the session...it's tradition.
I will be the first to say I find "The Fields of Athenry" and "Wild Rover" etc. a bit redundant. If someone must sing, find one of those jewels,learn it well..accompanied or not...singing AS in playing, is something that should be practiced, polished and refined...otherwise it's just a noisy release of lung fuel.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:41 AM

I'm a singer who plays the guitar a bit, and I occasionally play at a session at the Blue Bell, Gringley. I strum along with the tune-players and, if they ask me, I sing a song (or two!). If they didn't ask me, I wouldn't force a song on them, but they invariably ask. Just seems like a happy setup there, with plenty of mutual respect being shown. It's a very nice session indeed.

My main grouse about some tune-players (and there's one of these at that session sometimes!!) are those who, apparently deliberately, play obscure tunes at breakneck speed, with several key-changes which, as a non-reader, I find almost impossible to follow, and then smirk in a very superior fashion at my discomfiture (and that of some of the others trying to join in!). I presume some of those who've posted on this thread would say it serves me right for being a sub-standard musician?

Johnny :0)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: JulieF
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:57 AM

I also find it strange having put so much effort into overcoming nerves to be branded an egotistical singer.

Saying that there is a point about balance and too many singers in a many 'tunes' session can cause problems. I'm inclined to think that one song every fourth or fifth set is probably as mixed as you should go. It is very difficult for a singer to jump in and sing before the collective musicians start up on yet another set. I am notorious for hanging round and not opening my mouth ( ok I do talk a bit) and tend to wait to be asked.   With people I know well I will jump in but that tends to be only in our own sessions. Even in these where I am the only singer , I would only do about 3 songs max in an evening

I attend sing-arounds but I get a different experience in the mixed/tune session.   I would actually say the the musicians can gain from singers - perhaps picking up a melodic line for the next set.

PP Will come to your Manchester Session if I can persuade our musicians but not on my own as I would dangerously swing the balance towards us egotistical singers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:59 AM

How would being able to read music help in spotting the key changes?
Generally if you've played with people a few times you find you get a feeling for what the new keys are likely to be. If you can't, well there's got to be some times in the evening when it's good to be able to take a break and sit back and listen and finish your pint.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: barrygeo
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:44 AM

What you need to control your sessions is a good "fear a' ti" - man of the house. Irish music sessions or ceili (in irish) originated when groups in local communities came together in one house for mutual entertainment. The most successful sessions depended on a good fear an ti whose main job was to control the politics of the session. He would know when to call for a song or a particular singer. He would know if there was a very good singer or musician lurking in the shadows but too shy to come forward. He didn't try to totally control events but to gently move the session in a certain direction.
The fear an ti was often not a musician as they are too involved in the music to suss out whats going on in the room but he would probably have a song or two - or a story to tell.

If you need to control your session get yourself a good fear a'ti or bean a' ti (woman of the house.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:50 AM

Julie you'll be very welcome with or without your mates.

Bishop; I would engage you in a battle of wits but I was brought up never to fight an un-armed man.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: matai
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:56 AM

In Auckland, at the Dogs Bollix, on a Tuesday Night they have what they call a Traditional Irish session. It usually starts with a song, played on the banjo, or guitar by Swig (fear a'ti?), various instrumentalists join in, later swing off into tunes, reels , gigs. In the pauses there are unaccompanied singers, poets. Sometimes an American rock'n'roll set, a french set (voice and accordion)and when it quietens down the song-writers get a moment or 15.
The craic is great and the pub is always full to overflowing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:58 AM

Sounds great to me.
PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,JOHN of ELSIE`S BAND
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:29 AM

Barrygeo,
         That`s the way we have run our "Sing and Play" nights over many years. A surefire recipe for success.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:54 AM

Have they stopped annotating keys on sheet music? They were still there the last time I looked (which was when I was studying classical music for 'A' level, and Grade 4 piano in 1964). Funny little squiggles, some like a noughts and crosses grid, some like a letter 'b'. To clever people they indicated the key the piece is in, but I wasn't sharp (no pun intended!) enough to understand them. Gave up Music and piano, and did Economics, Accountancy, Playing The Guitar By Ear, and Muckin' Around Wi' t'Lasses instead. Much easier (and more fun). LOL.
Johnny :0) :0)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: JWB
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:28 PM

Here's what John Masefield has to say on the subject:

"Oh, some are fond of fiddles and a song well sung,
And some are all for music for to lilt upon the tongue.
But mouths were made for tankards and for sucking at the bung!"
Says the old bold mate of Henry Morgan.

Have some fun,

Jerry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: jimmyt
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:42 PM

Johnny, You beat me to it!!!   I have always thought the KEY change would pretty much set up the fact that you are in a new Key! just funnin' Mc Grath.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: erinmaidin
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:44 PM

There's a place called the Dogs Bollix?!!!!!!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:13 PM

Between the Dog's Legs!!
Johnny :0) :0) WHL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,fi in nz
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:13 PM

Yep, there's a place called the Dogs Bollix. Not really a trad irish session, more an anything goes session - everyone singing and playing, tunes, one person singing (if they're loud or commanding enough).... etc. Main thing is though, everyone has a great time. If you were looking for a full on trad Irish session, you'd go somewhere else, maybe the Bog in Parnell on a Sunday night.

F


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:56 PM

Now if there were singing Sessions were every one joined in on most of the songs, or people sang cannons or part arrangements I'd love to attend, and sing, but that doesn't happen (well at least not yet).

Don't know where you live, PP, but if you ever get to Sheffield on a second Thursday evening, check out "Raise the Roof" at the Red Deer: every now & then someone does something that's not a singalong, but it's definitely the exception.

As for ego trips and lack of consideration/social skills... as has already been pointed out, singers don't have a monopoly on this behaviour. I have been to a "mixed session" where at least one fellow practiced ("quietly") the tune he was planning to play on his next turn -- while other people were singing and/or playing (and without moving from his spot in the session). I have also been in sessions where someone with an instrument decides to accompany a singer, can't manage it in the same key as the singer, but continues anyway. When this happens to me, I change key (if I can) to accommodate the player, even though I may end up singing lower/higher than I am comfortable with/sounds good -- but I still think it's a bit rude, to be honest.

Unfortunately, rudeness & ego can be found in just about any activity that involves more than one human being...

Cheers,

YY


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: TS
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:00 PM

YY..very good points there...quite valid...and if more people at sessions were as polite as you..what a grand time we could all have. Imagine it, a session where the "leaders" weren't flinging dirty looks or stopping to tell a novice musician the proper Key...ahhh..some day my friend, someday.....Slainte!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:36 AM

Every second Tuesday in the month you can drop in to the "a cappella" session at the Fox & Hounds, Stony Stratford, Bucks. (I use quotes because when I was growing up we called it "unaccompanied"!) Any kind of singing is acceptable, so long as it's unaccompanied (and preferably tuneful); choruses and well-known songs will draw the harmonies.

Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 24 September 10:37 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.