Corruption of the meaning of Session

Subject: Sessions vs Sing arounds
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:12 AM

I have noticed recently an attempt by singers to pervert the meaning of Session to mean, "Sing around".
A Session involves lots of people playing TOGETHER with occasional solos. The "sing around", more accurately defined as a self-indulgent rotational Ego trip, is something completely different stressing as it does the, them and us/ performer audience, dichotomy.
Another important difference is the deferential attitude non-participants are required to show, not conversing, while someone who thinks it un-necessary to sing the song in the same key from start to finish, and can't be bothered to learn the 7th verse, though they've been singing it for 20 years, murders a beautiful ballad.
At least we who play in Sessions don't force the non-combatants to shut up while we're playing.
Sessions are about collective Musicing and loss of Ego, Sing arounds, are the opposite; please reframe from corrupting the meaning of this word.
All the best
PP

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:24 AM

sing arounds can also be VERY much a collective experience - with chorus songs or call and response songs... or unison singing on old favorites, or harmony singing or...

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Willie-O
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:30 AM

Sheesh! Good thing you spotted this menacing trend just in time PP.

Not that I don't secretly agree with you, sometimes. I just wouldn't let on. I'd rather reframe.

Now my session... that's going to be a session. No wanking.   

W-O

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:31 AM

You have tune sessions and you have song sessions and you have sessions which are both. And there are story-telling sessi0ns and dance sessions for that matter.

"Session" just means you're sitting down together. Maybe you're doing things at the same time, maybe you're taking turns. That applies whether its songs or tunes, or stories or dances.

They have bull sessions too.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:32 AM

Oooooooh! Tetchy!!

In my experience, I'd have to agree with MMario!

My pet gripe about sessions is the need some people seem to have to play tunes they know everyone else cannot join in with...

I thought these things were supposed to be fun... so why bring in the Session Police to spoil it, PP?

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:34 AM

Oh, and I also agree with all the others who posted whilst I was posting!! ;^))

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Watson
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:39 AM

I have noticed recently an attempt by singers to pervert the meaning ...
Are you saying there's some sort of conspiracy by these evil singers to invade your world and oust the musicians from their rightful positions?
I go to sessions that have been called sessions for years. Some nights there are more songs, some there are more tunes - it depends on who turns up and what they feel like doing.
I have never encountered anyone on an ego trip, and I have never known anyone forced to shut up.
PP, I've heard you play and enjoyed it, you'd be welcome at any of the sessions I go to - you could even talk while I sing if you want to, but I don't think I'd feel inclined to buy you a pint if you bring that attitude with you.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:51 AM

PP,

Language changes constantly. No particular word is immune to meaning drift. You can't stop it.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:56 AM

Maybe not but it's worth a try.
PP

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: songs2play
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:57 AM

Way to go Watson. I'm with you all the way.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:59 AM

On the other hand you get the people who say that incompetent joiners-in ruin things, and the unaccomplished singers who object to accompaniment...

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: clansfolk
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:59 AM

I have noticed recently an attempt by singers to pervert the meaning of Session to mean, "Sing around".

Surely a "session" (presuming you to mean a music session) is just a group getting together to make music whether sequentially or simultaneously or with or without vocals makes no difference, unless the original meaning of a session has been perverted by "instrument players"?

session (noun) -

1. a meeting devoted to a particular activity "a filming session"; "a gossip session"

2. a meeting for execution of a group's functions "it was the opening session of the legislature"

3. a meeting of spiritualists "the seance was held in the medium's parlor" Synonyms: seance, sitting

4. the time during which a school holds classes "they had to shorten the school term" Synonyms: school term, academic term, academic session

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:00 AM

for many people the word "session" has no connection with any kind of music at all.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM

Talking and diddley: most folks could discuss recipies for a proper cheesecake or solve complex mathematical equations while playing "Morrison's Jig" or "Happy to Meet, Sore is My Part" but you can't talk and sing at the same time. Shushing happens during tunes too, if anyone around cares to actually listen. It doesn't happen very often though.

We've called our sessions sessions for years. They're mixed (tunes and songs) and they aren't 'sing-arounds', they're free-for-alls. Occasional ego trips - long, long songs without choruses or long sets of tunes nobody else knows and can't figure out because the player made sure they're in Flatulian Mode. (The best guys will introduce new tunes, then shift to something others know.) We normally duct tape these people and stand them up in a corner for the duration of the evening.

The longer I make music, the more stuff I find that irritates me, and it makes the music not fun. The more stuff I do, the more I break other people's rules or fear that I will, and it makes the music not fun. I wish I could go back to when I was 17 years old and I and my friends didn't give a rat's ass about any rules except "if it's fun and doesn't hurt anyone, do it." Problem is, that "hurt anyone" bit has been blurred into "cause anyone to get their panties in a bunch." Someone else's bunched panties should NOT be my problem!

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM

I'm not a member of the session police.
If I start a tune set my aim is that it should involve as many people as possible; the more play the better the buzz. I usually carry with me to sessions I attend regularly sheet music for the tunes that I play that are less common, and if anybody is interested they get a copy, or if they want I'll record it on a cassette.

PP

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Grab
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:07 AM

Hmm. Plenty of sessions of that definition are just an exercise in willy-waving. "Do you not know this song? Then keep quiet! Can you not play it at 2000bpm? Then keep quiet!" Ego trip city! Or equally, you can get ppl playing who can't remember the tune or who aren't proficient enough on their instrument to make it work. And a session of the sing-around variety can hardly emphasise the audience/performer situation if the "performer" changes every song (and if, as often is the case, half the pub are singing along).

Besides, the word "session" merely means a time when something is being done. The perversion is from that original meaning to what you think it means.

Nice troll, PP. Maybe you should be a guest? ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Vince
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:34 AM

Hmmm, now here's a thread to excercise (or exorcise) the ego. I think MMario's got it right. Seems to me PP's the one with the biggest ego. Not that that's bad, to be a successful performer in any field of entertainment i reckon, whether singing, dancing, playing, stand-up comedy whatever, requires a confidence and ego pretty well above the average. Not everyone can be a Martin Carthy, Bert Jansch or Pied Piper and some just like to 'give it a go'. As for no talking while someone is performing, i think its called 'politeness' and 'good manners' PP! I attend a 'session' (informal gathering as opposed to organised folk club) in a pub bar in Middleton every Monday where ther's singing and playing. There's often talking around the bar (and noisy darts match in the 'tap room') but if a particular quiet song or tune is being played one of the players usually taps a glass and the people 'round the bar' usually quieten down out of politeness. It works well. Maybe we shoul stop bloody categorising so much and just enjoy the craic (probably spelt that wrong aswell)!

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:34 AM

PP Why not just stick to the Perversion???
It might be fun!
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:35 AM

The fact that musicians can play tunes while thinking about somthing else doen't mean they should, and your implication that the tunes you mention are so banal that you can't bring them to life, is an excuse for your own inability.

PP

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:54 AM

Pied Piper - did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning?

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:55 AM

Temper temper!

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:57 AM

Up to now the word session has included many different types: Music, Song, Poetry, Story Telling etc. These major categories can often be broken down further. For instance song could include: Shanties, Ballads, West Gallery/Sacred Harp etc, and music could be split into Irish, Scottish, English Country Dance Band, Bluegrass, Morris, etc.
My feeling is that it is Pied Piper who is trying to hijack the word - probably to fit a very narrow band that happens to be his own personal interest.

Provided that the content and aims of a session are declared, then anything which fits into the stated range is admissable. If you don't want singers in your session, then make it clear from the start - they'll go somewhere else. For example the session which happens once a month near Southwark Street is specifically for English Country Dance Band music. Personally, I prefer a well run mixed sessions like some of the ones we manage at The Moreton Village Festival.

My pet gripe about sessions is the need some people seem to have to play tunes they know everyone else cannot join in with...
If you only have tunes that everybody is capable of playing, the session will soon become boring and stagnant. Perhaps you won't be able to play along first time, but if you like the tune enough, you'll soon learn it and thus increase your repertoire. Part of a session should be listening to other people performing, sometimes so other members can learn something and sometimes to give less experienced members a chance to play something themselves without getting drowned out by others.

Song sessions do tend to be different. Most singers would expect to sing the verse on their own rather than with every joining in, although participation (unison or harmony) in the chorus is usually welcomed. Instrumental accompaniment should be at the discretion of the singer. If a singer has a quiet voice a crowd of melodeons, fiddles, and bodhrans will probably completely drown them out. If accompanying musicians are sympathethic to the timing, phrasing, and nuances of the singer, they can be a great help, but many times they want to play at their own speed and rhythm all the time. If Pied Piper would like to hear just how sensitively a whistle player can accompany a singer, he should try going to a session with mudcatter "Leadfingers" around (how about that I'm complimenting you Terry).

Incidently, when I choose to sing a song unaccompanied, it's because I want it that way - not because I can't play my own backing.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: andymac
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:07 AM

Ever sat in on a session where there's only super-fast, wall to wall tunes all bloody night? The problem often is that big "instrumental sessions" end up being just that. Anyone wanting to sing is occasionally tolerated if it's a short song, then it's straight back to the playing or more often than not, simply ignored.
I would prefer to hear music and song, but frankly the ego problem exists with the musicians who think they are the only ones who should be allowed to decide what goes on in a session; PP being an example of just that.
Has he never heard a badly played fiddle, or a set of pipes drowning out everything else? Don't think that all the poor quality exists only in singing sessions....

PS I didn't get out of bed on the wrong side today..

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:18 AM

Dave, nowhere in my post did I say that it was impossible to accompany a song with a subtly played whistle, or that singers were incapable of backing themselves and I am in no need of your patronising education.
You clearly thought that if you invented some statements I did not make you could deal with them in stead of those actually in the post, an all to common tactic here, but very transparent.

PP

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:22 AM

Get out of bed the wrong side today, PP?

Can you give some examples of this conspiracy you have spotted ...by singers to pervert the meaning of Session... ? What would be the purpose of singers doing this? An attempt to turn all of your beloved sessions into dreaded singarounds? I don't get it.

The one example you jumped at on the Ormskirk thread was nothing of the sort, and seems to be a case of you seeing what you want to see.

You obviously have problems with singers generally, and a divisive attitude to instrumental/vocal music, an attitude I detest. I play in instrumental seesions and sing in singarounds and other formats of singing groups, but my favourite grouping is the sort of mixed session exemplified by the DeanMeister's session in the Sun, Beverley, which is a combination of solo tunes and those for joining in, and solo songs and those for joining in, and where respect is shown by instrumentalists and singers for each other.

You seem to have no respect for anyone who doesn't fit into your strict definitions. Anyway, why should it bother you if singers wish to run singarounds in the way you have described (though I've never been to one that was anything like the one you seem to have experience of- where was it?) since you would obviously not choose to spend any time at one?

There are so many points you make (in an ill-tempered and abusive fashion) that I could take you up on, but from your answers so far to replies on this thread you're obviously not in a mood listen to others' points of view so I'd only be wasting my typing.

After this outburst of yours I'll steer well clear of any sessions that have any connection with you- a shame, as I have enjoyed hearing you play.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:23 AM

Andymac, this is my point entirely sessions are for people to play collectively most of the time with occasional solos, if you don't like it stay away, and don't try to hijack the session.
PP

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:26 AM

The biggest audience/musician gap occurs with tunes. Audiences can sing and can join choruses, but if they had instruments, they wouldn't be in the audience. My biggest problem with instruments vs. singing is people who think there's some sort of war going on between them. If the session is instruments only or mixed, just tell people!

Dave, yep on the tunes that others don't know. Like I mentioned, the best way is to do something new, then go into something old. Sometimes folks bring sheet music and sometimes they just play the tunes each week until others catch on. I'm not great at hearing a tune and being able to play it, but I can usually catch most of it, so my skills are improving. Good practice at learning by ear.

I tend to be bored easily and I'm occasionally sick of a tune as soon as I manage to learn it. I love improvisation. That said, there's something wonderful about playing a good old tune with a bunch of good players and getting the rhythm going solid and strong. I believe it was Jon Freeman who called it 'floating'.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:29 AM

We're having the same problem with our new lunchtime, er, folk club: the musicians' fears that it will turn into a singaround seem to be coming true, while the singers are worried that they won't get a fair crack of the whip if somebody keeps jumping in with a tune just as they try to start a song. The solution proposed is to dedicate one meeting a month as a dedicated tune session, and the others as song and/or music sessions.

If we say "music session" or "song session", no-one will be under any misaprehension. All in favour...?

Steve

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:38 AM

Noreen.
Red herring No 1
I did not use the term conspiracy.
Red herring No2
As you know my comment on the Ormskirk thread was about a posting that used the term Session without qualification
Red herring No3
Nowhere in my post did I say I did not like vocal music.
And finally the emotional blackmail.
Oh what a naughty boy I've been.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Vince
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:39 AM

Ere, Ere, Noreen & Steve Parker!

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: clansfolk
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:43 AM

little boxes......................?

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM

Jeri this is my point, people need to know what the event is, and to use the word that has been used for years to mean an instrumental get together in a Pub without qualification is not helping things.
PP

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM

Hey Up John you don't have talk a load of cobblers, be very careful when you get off that high horse

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:48 AM

Did you mean half.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:55 AM

Does it make a difference whether you spell it in English ("session") or Irish ("seisun," or something like that, with an accent or two)?

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:56 AM

Nope. A session is a session.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:59 AM

HEY! I take exception to a couple of comments above... singers and musicians. Singers ARE musicians. Their instrument is their voice. Likewise SONGS are a type of music. So calling something a "music session" does not exclude songs and singers. Now "tune session" could be argued to do so...

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:04 PM

heloo,i,prefer,mixed,sessions,[songs,and,tunes].john

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Rich A
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:14 PM

Hey, MMario. Are you say that singers arn't tuneful? :)

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:17 PM

no - but it is commonly accepted that a "tune" is instrumental while a "song" has lyrics and is sung.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:26 PM

PP I was not trying to claim that you did make certain statements. My main gripe at your opening post was the fact that I believe that a singaround is a type of session. I agree wholeheartedly with Clansfolk's statement:

Surely a "session" (presuming you to mean a music session) is just a group getting together to make music whether sequentially or simultaneously or with or without vocals makes no difference

My coments were not all directed at you by any means, and I admit that some were made in order to pre-empt some of the comments that have been made by anti-singer musicians in the past. Anyway I will address some of the statements that you have made.

The "sing around", more accurately defined as a self-indulgent rotational Ego trip, is something completely different stressing as it does the, them and us/ performer audience, dichotomy.

The audience can usually join in with choruses in singarounds, but unless the tunes are played at a proper dance tempo, it is very unlikely that they would be able to participate in a music session other than with simple percussion - ie shaky eggs etc.

Another important difference is the deferential attitude non-participants are required to show, not conversing, while someone who thinks it un-necessary to sing the song in the same key from start to finish, and can't be bothered to learn the 7th verse, though they've been singing it for 20 years, murders a beautiful ballad.
At least we who play in Sessions don't force the non-combatants to shut up while we're playing.

Music can work quite happily as a background entertainment (like MUZAK), but the words of songs usually need to be listened to. Singers can't all produce the same sort of volume that a group of melodeons and fiddles are capable of, and many songs would be completely spoilt if they were sung at full volume. Your coment about omitting the 7th verse shows a complete lack of understanding about folk song - ballads especially. Try comparing versions of the same ballad in the Child collection - singers have always chosen which verses they do/don't sing. As for a singer's skill, we can't all be perfect - I can think of quite a few fiddlers whose intonation and timing are attrocious - even when they've got fixed-pitch instruments to keep in tune with.

Finally, I can think of quite a few session musicians whose egos are such that they will always try to force a tune into the tempo and style that they play it - irrespective of the way that someone started it.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:28 PM

A music session's just meant a get-together here for as long as I've known the term and one listens or asks to find out what the 'rules' are. I'm quite familiar with the fact that if you say 'session' in Ireland or Irish music circles, you mean intruments-only, but the word really does have different meanings depending on location and culture.

It sounds like your 'bad side of the bed' experience might have something to do with someone trying to hijack a session you play in. You'd expect musicians to perhaps ask what sort of music happens before they go or at least listen to figure out what's going on. It ain't the word that's the problem - it's people's social skills.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:28 PM

not to mention the (unasked) accompianists who try to force the SINGER into their own preferred tempo and variation!

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:29 PM

So what did this whole thread prove?

Sessions? sing arounds?   songs? tunes?

So much analyzing.
So little music.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: andymac
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:32 PM

What a load of bull PP, folk music is for everyone to enjoy, audience and participants. If you are wanting an cliqueish series of tune only events, where only those who conform to your setup take part, why don't you just stay away and let the rest of us get on with being collective?
Have a house-party instead and invite who you want.. meanwhile we'll all be in the pub, singing and listening to music.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: smallpiper
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:43 PM

In my experience a session was a gathering of instrumentalists and a sing around was exactly that. There has been language drift so that session means anything and everything (and yes I know that to some people session can mean somthing else entirely but as we are talking music....) so now we need to be more precise. The trouble with some (and I mean some) mixed sessions is the prevelance of bad manners. Vocalists expect to be listened to and talk over people playing tunes - that really pisses me off ok when there are a lot of people playing but not ok when people are playing slow airs.

Also a session is a gathering at which you can learn new stuff, be it tunes or songs and I for one try my best to encourage beginners at sessions - its the only way to keep the music alive.

So I guess I'm with Pied Piper on this(to a degree) but at the same time am realistic enough to accept that things have now changed.

And why havn't we met yet Pied Piper?

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Watson
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:44 PM

...so what I'm going to do is advertise a session to lure all the innocent unsuspecting players of tunes in, but when they get there there will be songs - their fate will be sealed, unable to cope with words and music together, they will collapse writhing on the floor. Reduced to dust, the landlord will sweep them out with the cigarette ash in the morning and the rest of us cackle maniacally and call our singarounds sessions without fear of anyone whingeing any more.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:56 PM

Red herring No 1 ?
That's why I put the word conspiracy in my own words, and not in the italic quote from you, PP.

Red herring No2 ?
Neither of us know what was in the mind of the person who talked about sessions in that post (or do you?), but you see an attempt to pervert its meaning- ARE there no instrumental sessions at Ormaskirk then, as you imply?

Red herring No3 ? (Best one yet)
Nowhere in my post did I say you did not like vocal music. What I said was You obviously have problems with singers generally, and a divisive attitude to instrumental/vocal music, which seems pretty obvious from your rant.

And finally the emotional blackmail.
Huh? That's because I threaten never to go to your session again??
And I never knew you cared! *grin*

Play some nice tunes, cool down and you'll feel better (OK, and I'll stop being patronising too.)

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:28 PM

I think it's terrible the way the word "animal" has being hijacked by people who don't realise that the word actually means a small furry creature who goes "miaow" - you find people using the same word to describe big grey creatures with trunks, or hairy baboons or little mice, and even things with wings and feathers

I've nothing against all these other creatures - but don't go callng them "animals" when they don't go "miaow", because that can be really confusing.

Subject: RE: Corruption of the meaning of Session
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:51 PM

LOL Watson & McG :0)
smallpiper, a certain mutual friend was planning to bring you over to PP's session in Manchester, but then his plans changed...

PP, I was brought up in Irish music circles in Liverpool, where a session meant mostly but not exclusively instrumental music, played together as you suggest.
After two or three sets of tunes, there would be a song (unaccompanied, traditional) from one of the players, or a call for a song from one of the 'audience' who was known to be a singer.

So, your definition of a session is valid for you, and mine is valid for me. I don't expect every session to be run the same way, it depends on who's running it and what their definition of a session is.

Joan has said on the Ormskirk thread that she talks about sessions which would include singing but any instumentalists who turned up would be very welcome also. Perhaps if someone is as specific as you as to what their definition is, then the word session should be qualified by eg.'instrumental only'.