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CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: maeve Date: 15 Jul 08 - 06:11 AM I'm enjoying this cd this morning, and hope others may enjoy seeing this thread emerge again. |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: katlaughing Date: 15 Oct 06 - 07:50 PM Thanks for the refresh. I missed this first time round. |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Liam's Brother Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:36 PM Chanteyranger, I believe you asked whether the entire collection will ever be published. I don't know but it is a very large undertaking. It comes to 4066 individual performances. Some of those are retakes of the same singer singing the same song. There are also some fiddle tunes. But most, of course, are ballads and other songs. There are a number of books containing songs from the collection... Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England (4 volumes) A Garland of Green Mountain Song The New Green Mountain Songster Vermont Folk Songs and Ballads Ballads Migrant in New England. Perhaps Mrs. Flanders' granddaughter, Nancy-Jean, will comment further. |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Barry Finn Date: 14 Oct 06 - 07:32 PM Refresh Barry |
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Subject: Lyr Add: YOUNG MATHYLAND From: Liam's Brother Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:07 PM YOUNG MATHYLAND There was a lord lived in this town He had a fair and only daughter She fell in love with a young man Who was a servant of her father When the old lord came this to know He swore that he should leave this island The lady said her heart would break If she was parted from Mathyland The lord unto his lady said One night within their own bed chamber Now young Mathyland I'll transport For I fear our daughter is in danger His lady gay in ambush lay For grief so great she lay repining She said my father I'll deceive And I shall wed my young Mathyland She went to her lover's bedside Commanding him for to awaken Arise my love and go away Or else this night you will be taken The lord unto his daughter said I did not know you loved him I give you leave to bring me back As there is none you prize above him They had a wedding so they say The gayest one in all the island They went to church and then straightway He made a lord of young Mathyland. Young Mathyland was one of many songs recorded by Lena Bourne Fish for the Flanders Ballad Collection. Gordon Bok sings it on Irish Songs from Old New England: Traditional Irish-American Songs from the Flanders Ballad Coolection Songs, Folk-Legacy CD-132. |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Peter Kasin Date: 06 Dec 03 - 02:38 AM Thanks for the clarification, Dan. Amazing how many traditional songs are still untapped by today's singers. The world is a singer's oyster.Thank you for putting together the recording. Chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Liam's Brother Date: 05 Dec 03 - 03:41 PM Thanks for the kind comments. You are all fine people and you really love old songs just as the Flanders singers did. Nine books of songs from the Flanders Ballad Collection were published; 4 of those were the 4 volumes of Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England (Child Ballads). I would like to do another book of songs one day (not soon) and I would certainly put some of these songs into it if I did. All the best, Dan |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CONSTANT FARMER'S SON From: Liam's Brother Date: 05 Dec 03 - 03:28 PM THE CONSTANT FARMER'S SON (Laws M33) There was a fair damsel in London Town did dwell. She was proper, tall and handsome; her parents loved her well. She was admired by lords and squires but all their hope in vain For there was one old farmer's son who Mary's heart did gain. A long time they courted and appointed the wedding day. Her parents they consented but her brothers they did say, "A wealthy lord has pledged his words and him she shall not shun We'll first betray and then we'll slay the constant farmer's son." There being a fair all out of town her brothers went to play. They invited young William with them to spend the day. When mark - returning home again - they said his race was run And with a stake the life did take of a constant farmer's son. As Mary on her pillow lay she dreamed a dreadful dream, She dreamed she saw her William dear down by a flowery stream. She then arose put on her clothes to seek her love did run, Was dead and cold she did behold the constant farmer's son. She gazed on his rosy cheeks all mangled in his gore. She kissed his ruby lips and she kissed them 10 times o'er. She pulled the green leaves from the trees to shade him from the sun While night and day she spent her way with the constant farmer's son. [Hunger came on this poor girl, she wept with grief and woe. To find out his murderers, she straightway home did go.] "Oh, parents dear you soon shall hear of a dreadful deed that's done. In yonder vale lies cold and pale the constant farmer's son." Her brothers they confessed their guilt and for the same they died While Mary on her pillow lay and never ceased from crying. "Oh, parents dear you'll soon find out the glass of life has run!" And Mary cried and in sorrow died for the constant farmer's son. "The Constant Farmer's Son" was among the ballads recorded by Annie Syphers of Monticello, Maine for the Flanders Ballad Collection. The version above was sung by Louis Killen on Folk-Legacy CD-132, Irish Songs from Old New England: Traditional Irish-American Songs from the Flanders Ballad Collection, and is Ms. Syphers' version in melody and, principally, in text. To clarify the story a little, the words were collated just slightly with a text in the Sam Henry collection (p. 435) and with two broadsides at the Bodleian Library (Johnson 2674 and 2675). |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Peter Kasin Date: 04 Dec 03 - 07:31 PM I second that emotion. It's a geat recording. Any possibility the collection, or an abridged version, will be published in book form? Chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Ferrara Date: 04 Dec 03 - 09:14 AM Dan, thanks for your wise & informative posts. BTW I had noticed a wee bit (!) of variation, both tune and lyrics, WRT the one song where I've heard the Flanders source, thanks for clarifying that. A good CD. I think the songs done by Dan, Dierdre and Bonnie are superb, they are my favorites, very memorable and very satisfying to hear. |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 01 Dec 03 - 05:39 AM Joe, I don't think I can post my Living Tradition review here because the relevant issue of the magazine hasn't come out yet. But I repeat what I said earlier, the word is EXCELLENT. Burl |
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Subject: Lyr Add: McCORMICK & KELLY From: Liam's Brother Date: 30 Nov 03 - 09:00 PM McCORMICK & KELLY Come all jolly lumbermen and bosses as well I pray give attention to what I now tell Of 2 bully bosses of wealth and great fame Who lumbered near Ellsworth in the state of Maine One was bold Kelly, you all know him well A man of good judgement on the Potash did dwell He was neat, tall and handsome, stout-hearted and bold He exceeded Napoleon, that hero of old. The next was McCormick, a man shrewd and wise He said he take part in this great enterprise To compete with bold Kelly I'll tell you no lie He said by his maker, he would conquer or die Said McCormick to Kelly I know where there's spuce "Alright, then," said Kelly, "we'll go and we'll cruise We'll go and we'll cruise, John, without more delay Our main road we'll spot out on this very day." Then at it they went with their whole might and main You'd have that that they'd tore down the whole state of Maine The chips from their axes they darkened the sun And the beasts from the forests in terror did run. They tore down the forests for miles all around The ground it did tremble for the trees coming down The destruction the truth it was awful to see It equaled the fire of Miramichi To haul to the landing they then did begin They discharged all their crew but 8 or 10 men Now I hope that their pockets with money will flow When their lumber is rafted and run down below. Now come all you pretty fairs maids with cheeks like a rose If you want a nice beau you can have one of those He will kiss you and court you and plead for awhile You're welcome to one if you fancy his style This is a comic Irish-American song from the Maine lumber camps. It was sung for the Flanders Ballad Collection by Charles Fennimore of Bridgewater, ME on August 30, 1942. The original or source recording is in the FBC and can be heard at Middlebury College or the Library of Congress. It also appears, sung by Dan Milner with Bob Conroy (guitar) and Brian Conway (fiddle), on Irish Songs from Old New England: Traditional Irish-American Songs from the Flanders Ballad Collection (Folk-Legacy CD-132). Mr. Fennimore used the tune commonly known as "Erin Go Bragh" and Dan Milner sung it to the tune usually called "Sweet Betsy from Pike" or "The Ould Orange Flute." |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: ard mhacha Date: 25 Nov 03 - 06:06 AM You are right there Liam`s Brother about the numbers of Irish [cannon fodder] in the Crimean War, if my old memory serves me right the first VC went to a man from Banbridge by the name of Crozier. Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Liam's Brother Date: 24 Nov 03 - 10:26 PM Regarding the Heights of Alma... a) many songs exist in more than one tradition, sometimes with little variation. No claim is made that this is ONLY an Irish song or that it originated in Ireland. b) as Ballyholme points out above, this song does exist in the Irish tradition, c) the refrain in this particular version includes the words... "Sing tanderin ERIN all the day." d) the source singer knew other songs identifiable as Irish. e) 40% of the British Army during the Crimean War were Irish soldiers. All the best, Dan |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Liam's Brother Date: 24 Nov 03 - 10:11 PM Joe Offer wrote... "Dan, why doesn't the CD booklet contain lyrics (other than the well-known fact that CD booklets take time and money that are not always readily available)? Where can we find them? Might you be willing (and able?) to post them all in this thread (one song per message, if possible)? I'll be glad to cross-reference them to other threads, and do any editing you need." Regarding lyrics: there are a few reasons Joe. You've mentioned a couple. Beyond those... a. When I wrote the introduction to The Bonnie Bunch of Roses (my folk song collection), I included the observation that singers come in 3 categories: those who change nothing from their source, those who alter only a few details to clarify the message, and those who change things wholesale. Culturally, I wanted the CD singers to learn the songs from the original recording (and they did); artistically, I "trusted" them to retain the integrity of the songs (and they did); and, realistically, I expected the 3 possibilities above (and got them all). Of course, I didn't feel I could print texts as being from the Flanders Ballad Collection if they were not per se (I did comment in a couple of places within the notes when there was a substantial change from the FBC source). b. I've never really found song texts within the notes absolutely necessary. All the songs on Irish Songs from Old New England are in English and all singers on the CD have pretty good diction. My e-mail address is contained in the notes and I do get occasional queries. Since returning to work following my (earlier) retirement, I'm really very busy and seem to be stepping from one obstacle to the next all the while. I'm actually being held back from making the next couple of CDs by a terrible lack of time. All the best, Dan |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: GUEST,Ballyholme Date: 20 Nov 03 - 03:21 PM Clueless Don, the song is certainly found in the Irish tradition. I remember recording the late Willie Nichol (Co. Antrim) singing it in the 1960s. He said that he had learned the song from a singer who was killed at the Battle of the Somme in 1916. Mind you, it was a somewhat different version from that of some English singers I've heard, including the version recorded by Banddoggs (Nic Jones and friends). |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: clueless don Date: 20 Nov 03 - 01:31 PM Just listened to the sound clips at the Folk Legacy site. "Heights of Alma", as recorded there, sounds like a variant of a song I've heard with a chorus that goes "Briton's sons will long remember, the glorious twentieth of Sep-tem-ber, we caused the Russians to surrender, on the Heights of Alma". Both versions are apparently about a battle that took place during the Crimean war. I find myself wondering "what makes this an Irish song?" I suppose the answer is that it was collected from Irish sources. And there may well have been Irishmen among the ranks of the combatants. But it doesn't sound very Irish to me. Perhaps I need to listen to the entire song, to see if an Irish point of view emerges. |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Wolfgang Date: 20 Nov 03 - 11:47 AM Yes, Snuffy, it is. Same, I mean though a fione variant). You can listen to this song (and two more) on the folk legacy website Joe has linked to above. That gives you a good impression what to expect. I'm looking forward to my copy. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: CD Review: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Snuffy Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:47 PM Joe, is that "2. Young Mathyland" the same as "Young Matt Hyland" or a different song? |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Nov 03 - 03:41 PM Here is the track list and introductory notes from the Folk-Legacy Website. I'll change the track list into links as I find lyrics posted. Burl and Nerd and any others, if you wrote reviews and are able to post them in this thread, that would be very nice. -Joe Offer-
Real Irish folk songs collected in New England, most brought directly from Ireland by immigrants and deep-water sailors during the 19th Century. All were kept alive by men and women who built New England’s cities and towns, who worked in its factories and homes, who toiled on its farms and fishing boats, and who felled trees in its rich forests. Some are rarely heard in Ireland today, some were made in America. They are story songs of love and war, frolic and work - Irish ballads that, like their singers, became truly American. The artists include three All-Ireland Champions - Frank Harte, Jim McFarland & Len Graham; and many of North America’s finest modern-day ballad singers - Gordon Bok, Ian Robb, Robbie O’Connell, Sandy & Caroline Paton; plus four leaders of the Irish-American traditional song revival - Bob Conroy, Bonnie Milner, Dan Milner & Deirdre Murtha; and two icons of Britain’s folk song movement whose roots stretch back to the Emerald Isle - Louis Killen & Martin Carthy; with guest instrumentalists – Greg Brown accordion/fiddle, Brian Conway fiddle & David Paton concertina. INTRODUCTION The early Irish of Massachusetts were a scattering of soldiers, indentured servants and transported prisoners. A small Irish merchant class grew with time and the colony’s first St. Patrick’s Day celebration took place in 1737 with the founding of the Boston Irish Charitable Society. Still, Catholicism could not be practiced lawfully in Massachusetts until 1779 and, 75 years later, Dorchester’s first Catholic church was burned to the ground by the aptly named Know-Nothings. The vast majority of Great Famine (1845-1852) escapees who landed in Boston came with nothing and, without funds to engage in farming or trading, were unable to participate in the principal pursuits they had followed in Ireland. In overwhelming preponderance, their employment had to be the work no one else wanted: laboring and service jobs. Struggling on, most gained a foothold and succeeded… some fabulously. But the scene in Boston was only part of the New England panorama. In 1719, Ulster-Presbyterians settled the town of Londonderry, New Hampshire and, reputedly, cultivated the potato in North America for the first time. Rhode Island’s early Irish settlers were mainly Protestants too with Catholics arriving in significant numbers for the construction of Fort Adams at Newport starting in 1824. Many of Maine’s Irish are the descendants of “two boaters,” immigrants who came first to Atlantic Canada because fares were generally much cheaper to British North America than to the United States. Matthew Lyon, a native of Co. Wicklow who had started his life in America as an indentured servant in Connecticut, fought with the Green Mountain Boys during the Revolution and served Vermont in Congress from 1796 to 1800. Large numbers of Irish first entered Connecticut to dig the 80-mile long Farmington Canal in the 1820s. Throughout the 19th Century, waves of Catholic Irishmen supplied much of the sweat and sinew to build the factories of New England and its railways, roads, public buildings and housing. During the Civil War, thousands upon thousands enlisted while others took the places of Yankees who had already left for battle; many New Englanders, new and old, never returned. As America raced towards the 20th Century, daughters of laborers and servants became nurses and teachers and many of New England’s Irish Catholic families ascended into the middle class. The eminent historian Kerby Miller writes that, as Southern and Eastern European immigrants began pouring into New England, Boston’s Brahmins began to recruit the Irish as “honorary Anglo-Saxons.” In 1930, when Helen Hartness Flanders first set out from her Springfield, Vermont home to collect folk songs, she was primarily in search of the English and Scottish popular ballads as defined by the Harvard scholar Francis James Child. By the time the fieldwork was concluded 30 years later, she and her collaborators – George Brown, Elizabeth Flanders Ballard and Marguerite Olney – had broadened that mission greatly and had amassed some 4500 musical items. Many of the songs were of Irish origin or of Irish-American making. The Flanders field collecting came at a critical time. Those who contributed songs were the last generation to sing the ballads of an early Irish-American song tradition that was being broken by radio, the phonograph and other modern inventions. The singers were mainly older rural dwellers and, interestingly, they were not exclusively of Irish background. Just as the Irish themselves assimilated, their ballads became Irish-American songs. Americans of French-Canadian stock like Eugene Neddeau and Paul Lorette sang “In the Town of Donegal” and “Erin-Go-Bragh” and Yankee singers with names like Abe Washburn and Sidney Luther sang “The Irish Patriot” and “Bold Kelly.” Many of the male informants had worked in the lumber camps of New England and Canada where they felled trees and hauled logs alongside Famine immigrants and where the convention was to learn a ballad exactly as you heard it – brogue and all, often speaking the last few words. Helen Hartness Flanders not only wanted to collect and to preserve ballads but to re-popularize them as well. She wrote articles for New England newspapers, gave lectures incorporating performances by her informants, published nine books containing songs from the collection and established an archive at Middlebury College in Vermont. Her great work preserved a vast legacy for New Englanders, for the Irish People and for lovers of traditional song everywhere. This recording is made with the hope of re-introducing these classic Irish-American ballads into today’s living folk song repertoire. Dan, why doesn't the CD booklet contain lyrics (other than the well-known fact that CD booklets take time and money that are not always readily available)? Where can we find them? Might you be willing (and able?) to post them all in this thread (one song per message, if possible)? I'll be glad to cross-reference them to other threads, and do any editing you need. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: NH Dave Date: 19 Nov 03 - 03:39 PM Margaret McArthur has released CDs with numerous Irish songs as well. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish songs from old New England From: Nerd Date: 19 Nov 03 - 01:57 PM Yes, I reviewed it as well, and it is a really excellent production. Highly recommended! Only one correction to Ard Macha: the collector's full name was Helen Hartness Flanders. This is only important because the collection is often known as the "Flanders collection" for short. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Irish songs from old New England From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:03 AM I have reviewed this for the Living Tradition magazine. I can assure you all that it is a fine album. Excellent research, excellent songs, excellent singers. All-round excellence in fact. Congrats to Liam's Brother and Folk -Legacy. Burl |
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Subject: Origins: Irish songs from old New England From: ard mhacha Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:41 AM A new CD by the name of, Irish Songs from old New England features Irish folk songs brought from Ireland to to the north-east coast of the United States by immigrants during the 19th century. The songs were collected by Helen Hartness and feature the singing voices of Len Graham, Jim McFarland and Frank Harte, also included are instrumentalists, Greg Brown on Accordian/Fiddle, Brian Conway on Fiddle and David Paton on Concertina. Try www.folklegacy.com. Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Big Mick Date: 21 Jul 03 - 01:11 PM Thanks for the heads up, Liam's Brother. I will be ordering this one straightaway! What a collection of singers! All the best, Mick Messages from multiple threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: GUEST,Nancy-Jean Date: 20 Jul 03 - 10:52 AM Because the collection is so vast, and at the same time so little known, there are marvelous song discoveries ahead for any of you who like to sing. Making this CD is about spreading the word! I am involved in a researh project and made a committment to really get to know the collection so thus far I've listened to over 3000 songs. The musical and folkloric content absolutely boggles the mind. This is a cornucopia of songs representing all the ethnic groups that settled in New England, descriptions of their professions, songs of the old country heritages (Child ballads and more), historical accounts and epic deeds; songs of murder, betrayal, loss and nostalgia; anti-men, anti-women, anti-mother-in-law and "in search of" songs; religious songs, children's rock-a-bye songs and songs related to seafaring, as well as what a sailor does when he hits land. You name it, there's probably a song about it. Mudcatters on the road this summer might think of heading to the Champlain Valley Folk Festival in Vermont (Aug. 1-3). On Sunday there will be two sessions dedicated to the Flanders Collection--one a concert and the other a workshop. A number of fine performers will be participating --Margaret MacArthur, Dan Milner and his Irish Songs in New England group, the Atlantic Crossing group, Debra Cowan, Deb Flanders and Pete Sutherland. Check it out! http://www.cvfest.org/cvfest2003 Nancy-Jean |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Liam's Brother Date: 14 Jul 03 - 08:23 PM Irish Songs from Old New England is a title intended to catch the curiosity but, consider that Birmingham, England's second largest city, only had about 3,000 inhabitants 383 short years ago, when the founding Pilgrims landed in New England. Seen that way, New England is old indeed! This is an album only about the songs and I am very fortunate that 13 very fine modern-day singers shared my passion for traditional ballads and agreed to take part. They are: Gordon Bok, Martin Carthy, Bob Conroy, Len Graham, Frank Harte, Louis Killen, Jim McFarland, Bonnie Milner, Deirdre Murtha, Robbie O'Connell, Caroline Paton, Sandy Paton and Ian Robb. Nancy-Jean Ballard (Seigel), granddaughter of Helen Hartness Flanders and a Mudcatter, was a tremendous aid in helping find the research material I needed and a big, big help in getting information about the source singers. I selected about 20 songs and considered who would be the best person to sing each. All the singers are old friends and all kindly agreed. Sixteen ballads made it on to the disc which last 68 minutes. The songs all come from the Flanders Ballad Collection, one of America's great folk song collection. There are about 4500 musical items and just about all were collected in New England. This selection focuses on the Irish and Irish-American component which, to take a wild guess, is about 20% of the whole. Though by no means completely, the modern-day singers' backgrounds evoke those of the source singers, who were Irish, Yankees and Canadians. Anyway, I invite one and all to visit Folk-Legacy's website and read about the background of the songs, singers and collectors and listen to a few samples... Irish Songs from Old New England All the best, Dan Milner |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Brían Date: 14 Jul 03 - 01:44 PM I just bought it. Looking forward to hearingit. thanks for the heads up, Dan. Brían |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: JedMarum Date: 14 Jul 03 - 01:12 PM I am looking forward to hearing it. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: andymac Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:54 AM I have one as well. It's an excellent recording and credit to Dan Milner for doing the work on the collection, putting it all together and credit to the artists for recording these songs. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Hollowfox Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:41 AM Not in the USA, McGrath. Here we think 200 years is a long time. In Europe, 200 miles is considered a long distance. That apparently is the difference between the "old" and "new" worlds. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Jul 03 - 07:32 AM Does Old New England count as an oxymoron? |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 14 Jul 03 - 07:14 AM Me, too! |
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Subject: RE: Irish Songs from Old New England From: Phil Cooper Date: 14 Jul 03 - 12:11 AM I bought one at Old Songs. I think it's a great recording. |
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Subject: Irish Songs from Old New England From: JedMarum Date: 13 Jul 03 - 11:32 PM You can take a look at some info, and hear some sound files from a new FOLK LEGACY CD called Irish Songs from Old New England here. |
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