Need clawhammer/frailing advice

Subject: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Jon W.
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 01:46 PM

I mentioned in another thread that I'm finally getting the hang of the right hand frailing technique on banjo. Well, I am and I ain't if you know what I mean. Specifically, I'm having a hard time playing individual strings cleanly when doing melodies. I usually hit at least two strings, hopefully the right one the strongest. How clean are some of you advanced players hitting your single strings? I especially have trouble with the third and fourth strings.

Thanks,
Jon

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: GUEST,sorfingers
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 01:52 PM

Its about better timing mostly, but clean notes are as much about setup or the instrument as anything else.

Heavier strings, wider spacing and probably most of all proper tension on the top.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 02:05 PM

Is it possible your right hand movements are too big to maintain a feel for where the strings are? An absolute minimum of motion helps - bracing your forearm on the banjo and not moving anything from the wrist up.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 02:48 PM

Actually Jeri it is the other way around!

You has to swang dat thang! Typical song lick I-dTbI-anyotherstringbutcanbeastrum-Tg', is a good place to start. See comments in Pete Seger's book as well as Rosenbaum, both BTW slightly dated these days - a better book, I think, would be 'Frailing ..Banjo' Pub Melbay by Kohler.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 03:03 PM

Like all instrument techniques a lot of it is PRACTICE.
One thing I do when working on my single string accuracy, is to not bother with a melody, just hold a chord (open or fretted), and try to not hit ANY chords with the lead finger (in my case the index finger).
The pattern would be
(1)Single note ;
(2) silence (don't bother with hammering-on or pulling-off) ;
(3) single note (either same one as first beat, or on a different string) ;
(4) Thumb on 5th string.
REPEAT PATTERN ad-infinitum... (do it whilst watching sport on the telly or passing trains or paint drying...)

The main thing about this type of practice is you are learning a pattern which is not specific to a single melody line. Once your brain has it patterned in the skill transfers to any melody where it is needed.
QUACK!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 03:47 PM

God I hate to say this... Scales! ... You might want to just practice hitting a clean scale pattern with your lead finger in whatever major tuning you're in.

I'm finding I like the open G tuning that Bluegrassers use more than I like the double C (D if capoed up two) tuning that old-timey players seem to favor for fiddle tunes. If you need to play in D, just tune to an open A (a step above G) and then capo at the 5th fret.

I also sometimes sketch out the melody with my thumb before I try playing it with the lead finger. The thumb seems to "remember" better, and once it knows it teaches it to the other finger. I believe I saw one time that the thumb is controlled by more brain cels than any of the other digits.

And, like learning the basic frailing motion, it's practice, practice, practice! I'm starting to try to learn the 'drop thumb' lick now, and like everything else in this style, it's gonna take awhile.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 11:10 PM

Practice, practice, practice.

When I was learning I practiced the individual parts of the frailing pattern separately as part of each practice session. For example, I would practice hitting the string I was aiming at with my finger for a while, then I practiced hitting the 5th string from my thumb for a while, etc.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 06:21 PM

Make sure your stroke is "down" into the strings, so that the picking finger is stopped by the next string, rather than shallowly across the strings.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 11:27 PM

Similar problem, how do I paint a fence?

Daft, but think about it, same thing, doing is learning and no two people are doing the same thing.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: DonMeixner
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 12:00 AM

I have to agree about the Mel Bay/Kohler Frailing book. For me it was clearer in understanding than any book I had yet read, or read since. BUt once I had the Mel Bay book understood a little bit I got more out of the Seeger Book. I just bought the Seeger VIdeo that follows the book so I'll report my success or failure there too.

Don

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: smokeyjoe
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 12:03 AM

As above: practise, practise, practise. Do the same thing over, and over, and over again, and then do it some more....... The good news is, the more you practise, the quicker you'll become proficient. The bad news is, by then, you'll have advanced to something else that you'll have to beat your head against the wall over and over to get.   
    Seriously tho, I've been playing for over 22 years, and I'm still filled with satisfaction everytime I learn a new roll, lick, technique, etc. Sometimes I think that learning something new is more fun that sitting back and enjoying my accomplishments!
    Trust me, You WILL get it eventually.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Jon W.
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 11:02 AM

Thanks for all the advice so far - my technique is coming along, I think. I have yet to be able to get the kind of volume I think other players get, and as to speed - we won't even go there. Also, I'm still a little confused as to how much movement my thumb should make when picking the 5th string - the videos and people I've watched seem to have quite a bit of thumb movement, but the written descriptions don't seem to say that. Should the thumb movement be down (towards the floor), or out (away from the banjo head) when plucking the string?

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: fretless
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 12:53 PM

"Should the thumb movement be down (towards the floor), or out (away from the banjo head) when plucking the string?"

Depends which works for you. I tend to go down then out (there's a bad joke in here, but I'm not willing to go there at the moment) if I'm doing more of a note-thumb-brush Seeger-type strum; but more out if I'm doing a finger-thumb-finger-thumb sequence (in tab, m-t-b vs. m-t-m-t).

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:48 PM

Swore I'd never do this, but here I go!

The Clawhammer Thumb should idealy rest ON the B String if learning and 'weave' back UP to get and sound the little G string on the next oddnumbered note - if playing equal division -.

I know I said everyone is different, but that little lick cost me 5bucks from one of the finest Southern Clawhammer players in the 1990s, and for me it worked like a charm!

The reason why that one works so well, is that most novices tend to already have learned the basic Frail pattern which requires the Thumb to rest NEAR or on the little G string. So from the start they have an inbuilt problem with timing - always drifting back to the wrong parking place for the thumb.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Jon W.
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 01:26 AM

Hey, I've had a real breakthrough today - started practicing "Soldier's Joy" this morning and all of the sudden my right hand is doing everything right (well, most of the time) without me thinking about it - it feels great. I'll keep this up for a few days and then on to drop-thumbing.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: BanjoRay
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 08:09 AM

GUEST Sorefingers said "The Clawhammer Thumb should idealy rest ON the B String if learning and 'weave' back UP to get and sound the little G string on the next oddnumbered note - if playing equal division."

For me and for many excellent clawhammer players I know and have played with, this is WRONG. If the thumb rests on the B string, how're you going to hit the third or fourth string as part of the melody? The normal home for the thumb is the fifth string except for drop-thumbing, when it's usually (but not always) dropped to the string below the one you're striking with your index/middle. Note it's called Drop-Thumbing, not Raise-Thumbing - you drop the thumb from it's normal position, you don't raise it.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:54 AM

I said this in another thread but I'll say it again.

I've learned and relearned to play clawhammer at least three times in my life.

What have I learned?

The best way to learn is from a live human being. If you learn from a book, you'll sound like someone who learned from a book. (Been there.) That's NOT a criticism by the way.

There are a million ways to clawhammer. You can spend the week at Clifftop watching right hands and you'll not see the same thing twice. These million different ways produce a million different sounds. NONE of them are WRONG.

So, learn from a live human being who has the sound you want to produce on the banjo.

BE WARNED that the devil is in the details.

Any player you ask will say something like "It's easy, all you do is...." S/he can then quickly show you the basic gross motions. You can probably pick them up just as quickly.

However....

Every tiny little thing makes a difference in clawhammer. The finger you use (index, middle, other), the angle at which the finger meets the string, the part of the finger which contacts the string (tip of nail, middle of nail, tip of finger, other), the number of fingers which make the brush, the strings brushed, the relation of the thumb to the 5th string (avoids, plucks, rests on, digs behind, other), etc., etc., etc.

The resulting sound will be a function of every one of these variables. Learning/figuring these out is where things get tricky. Accomplished banjo players aren't always (sometimes never) aware of exactly what they're doing. They find it hard to explain and difficult to demonstrate. You can ask them to slow down, but playing slow and playing a tempo are two very different things. You have to be persistent (not to say nagging) and watch and listening very carefully.

These subtle things can take a very long time to get "right." You'll know it's right when it sounds right. If it sounds right, it is right.

The last time I learned, for example, I spent hours just hitting the 5th string with the thumb until it felt right and sounded right.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Jon W.
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 11:01 AM

I read some time ago an article on expertness vs. learning - experts rarely are able to explain their methods in a manner that makes sense or is useful to others. For example a pilot in training is told a specific order in which to scan the instruments on the plane. But an expert pilot rarely scans the instruments in that order, he/she simply glances at the instrument that gives the specific information needed at that time. Similarly, an expert at spotting cancer cells from biopsy tissue can't explain what to look for, they just know the bad cells when they see 'em.

I guess the main thing I've learned over the last few days is, "Just Do It."

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 12:19 PM

One factor which can make a big difference to both volume and precision of hitting a string is the length of the fingernail. If the nail is too short, the finger tip below the nail will still make contact with the string. This deadens the tone and volume. It also provides less chance for a clean attack on the string from a point of view of accuracy also.
If the nail grows too long, it can also affect accuracy, and is also more likely to break.
Somewhere in between gives the best note.

For drop-thumb work. I usually find that I hold the thumb in a relaxed, but basically fixed position, and the thumb is brought into string contact by a slight twist or roll of the wrist. Occasionally, however, for specific patterns (when the 5th string does not fit into the pattern), a VERY rigid thumb alternates with the index finger on the strings.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 02:45 PM

Jon. I concur. The best teachers can not only explain what works for them, but realise something different may work better for you and then explain it. It may or may not help if a whole bunch of people give advice. Sometimes one person's words 'click' when someone else's don't, even when they're saying the same thing. Sometimes it just gets confusing. In the end, though, it comes down to finding the 'bottom line' and going from there.

If you know which string you want to hit when, and with which finger, the only thing left is to do it over and over. There's a certain relaxed accuracy and economy of motion that only comes with time and practice, but it DOES come.

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 11:05 PM

Very interesting all here !! Heres method # 4568797787404048<><>>>< One very simple thing from your first question leads me to ask if you have found a map for yourself on figuring out where your hitting. The thumb can be a route as a measure when it comes in contact with the fith string. In a stopped possinion feel and mentally measure the distence of your down-clucking fingers from where the thumb rests.First string is the farthest second closer and so on . I use my middle finger out at first and second strings and index up close at third and forth .(Unless something is bleeding ! ) I also use my pinky for subtext but all of it is measured from the distence of where the thumb lands. Its the same for figuring double thumb. Thumb on 5th string (cluck cluck) and then say thumb on 3rd string the measure to first of second comes from the intervel of space set as a measure from where the thumb hits.
                Oh yes you also said something about picking with the thumb. Something about that thinking, I amagine might   get you in trouble. In the rythum of comming down on the first and second clucks the thunb is resting on the fith string for measure (like a claw coming down and on the third move you are realy just bringing the thumb away (Down or out I dont care). The simplisity of this is what can give it the speed for a hoedown!. You'll find if you try doing somthing extra with your thumb like picking that you'll get a charley horse you wont forget
                  Im sorry as others have said above if you do this for 30 years its hard to pass it along in print. Have a great time at any rate. All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: Need clawhammer/frailing advice
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 05:46 PM

Thumb thumb ... thumb..

But what about the fingernails!

Geoff reminded me - finger nails fast wear away on Steel Strings - wheras in fact most Clawhammer standards were evolved on Gut, which does not wear out the nails - more like the other way around ...lol -

And if you must play on steel strings, moving your hand OVER the end of the fingerboard will A soften the attack ...nice sound as well and B prevent fast wear on the index and/or middle fingers.

But if you really want to play on Gut, you had better get a decent Banjo otherwise it sounds like crap; in that case you might want to contact me about a vintage beast I happen to own.

19teens Vega Tu Ba Phone, all original - it is not a remake, it is not a Tenor Pot on a fake neck, it is genuine down to the brackets and tuners! all still in perfect working order.