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National Stereotypes
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Subject: National Stereotypes From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:04 PM I read today that God invented war so that Americans could learn geography. This in itself, while it is mildly amusing, when put with the fact that such a small percentage of American citizens are passport holders, gives the statement a veneer of truth. However before anybody on this side of the pond gets too smug, how many of us knew where the Falkland Islands were before the Argentinians invaded? Giok |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:16 PM God invented fried potatos (chips) so that the British could have a national cuisine... A |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:18 PM The flaw in that logic is that there was war before there was America. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: George Papavgeris Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:20 PM No flaw in the logic, it's just that God was a good planner and prepared in advance |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:21 PM Hmmm. We need passports to learn geography? That is a new one. Of course, many of us spend a lifetime exploring the diversity of the U.S. and never get around to visiting other countries. Ron |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:24 PM It looks like some people have short term memories on the other side of the pond. In the history books we have in the U.S. there are many chapters about Great Britian establishing "colonies" around the globe. The sun never sets on the British Empire? Perhaps the U.S. did not learn from the example of how the empire crumbled. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:26 PM oops... Britain. I don't want to contribute to the stereotype that we can't spell either. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:29 PM I don't know about you, Ron, but I can't afford to visit other countries too often. If I could, I'd be all over it. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: John Routledge Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:32 PM Forgotten what I was missing by not reading BS threads. :0) |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:35 PM Yes, the cost is a huge factor. Geographically, the distance between countries in Europe is not much different from the distances we travel for vacations here in the U.S. I do agree with you Kim, if the price was right I would be on it - but try taking a family of 4 on a European vacation without breaking the bank. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Midchuck Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:39 PM Here is the finest collection of national stereotypes ever compiled. Liberals beware: You'll find it offensive in the extreme. Conservatives beware: It's supposed to be a parody on these attitudes, not be taken literally. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:53 PM Oh my stars. I always did enjoy P.J O'Rourke, though. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: George Papavgeris Date: 22 Jul 03 - 06:00 PM Not that I want to press Giok's original point (in which I do not in fact believe), but I did find it amusing that the National Lampoon site with P.J.O'Rourke's steretotypes contains only 22 "nationalities". Why, there's more countries than that in the old Yugoslavia and USSR alone! To contradict Giok's point, how about the stereotype of the American who, once they've made it across to Europe, insist on "doing" a country a day or something like that (It's Tuesday afternoon, so this must be Belgium). I don't believe in stereotypes. As a Greek, I have never "bug****d" a sheep. Only the most degenerate of Greeks would do that. Not when there are goats about. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Burke Date: 22 Jul 03 - 06:24 PM According to an old saying in Europe, heaven has French cooks, English police, German mechanics, Italian lovers, and it's all run by the Swiss. Hell, in contrast, has English cooks, German police, French mechanics, Swiss lovers and the whole damn place is run by the Italians. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Blackcatter Date: 22 Jul 03 - 06:27 PM I really do think that the primary reason so few U.S. citizens have passports is the distance and cost. We can visit Mexico, Canada and much of the Carribbean without a passport. And since the U.S. is very large and very diverse geographically, I'd think that a lot of people find it easier to spend year after year inside the U.S. How many other countries have locations as different as Hawaii, Alaska, the Grand Canyon and South-West deserts, tall steep mountains like the Rockies and the Sierra-Nevadas, lower rolling mountains like the Appalachians, warm and cold oceans, the 5 great lakes, the Everglades and the Florida Keys, the Great Plains and the Badlands, the Northwest rain forests with sequoias and redwoods, & the tropical rain forests of Puerto Rico. Not to mention world-class cities such as San Fran, Chicago, Washington, New Orleans, Boston, Miami, etc. And where to so many Europeans go when they visit the U.S.? My hometown, Orlando and Walt Disney World. 12 million Europeans visited us last year. In 2000, it was nearly 15 million. Sure, our school kids may not know that much about world geography, but that's because we don't pay out teachers enough, there's too many kids in every class and the government puts education at a low priority year after bleedin' year. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: mack/misophist Date: 22 Jul 03 - 06:46 PM And may I point out that reading about other countries can be more satisfying that visiting them and risking disappointment. Not only did I know where the Falklands are, I knew where New South Georgia is - Of Whales and Men by Dr Robert Robertson, a wonderful book. Not to mention Shakleton's Boat Journey . another great book that mentions New South Georgia. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Gareth Date: 22 Jul 03 - 06:51 PM Ah Well ! To recycle an old joke : Without passports the Anerican may be :- Overpaid, Oversexed but at least they ain't Over Here. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 03 - 07:18 PM There, there, Gareth -- next time you need us, we will be. A |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jul 03 - 07:58 PM Good point, Gareth. Canada, alas, is distressingly close to the USA, so you can just imagine what we have to put up with, eh? Tourist season is especially bad. They come pouring like lemmings across the border at Detroit, Niagara Falls, and the other crossings...eating like pigs, causing multi-car pileups on the TransCanada and the 401, pestering everyone with questions like "Where are the igloos?" and "Do you all speak French here?". They assault our livestock and our underage girls. They shoot anyone who looks like an Arab or cuts them off in traffic. They make fun of our money and claim that the only real money is the US Dollar (even when it's sinking like a stone). They try to make us feel guilty for not supporting their international aggression on a more frequent basis, and mistake our flag for a gas station logo. They have a vague notion that we are under a Communist administration of some kind. They are in open contempt of our armed forces and our legal system despite the fact that we repulsed them handily in 1812-14 and outlawed slavery before they did, without having to kill 350,000 people first in order to decide the matter. They are living proof that nothing exceeds like excess! (Grin) - LH |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 22 Jul 03 - 08:03 PM Tourist season? Comeon Little Hawk, how would you know about that, most Canadians head down to Florida during tourist season. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: curmudgeon Date: 22 Jul 03 - 08:25 PM Except for the mob that invades NH and Maine. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: artbrooks Date: 22 Jul 03 - 08:55 PM Lots of Ontario license plates here in New Mexico all winter... |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:06 PM That's the counter-invasion, guys. We gotta fight back somehow. But our real secret weapon is the matchless power of.... ***BS*** Ya know what that stands for? Do I have to spell it out for you? Y'know, I wouldn't mind visiting New Mexico myself, but I was sorta hoping for "regime change" in the USA first. - LH |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:22 PM B.S. - a Canadian export? You claim that too????????? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:26 PM There WAS no BS in all of Canada prior to the establishment of the 13 American colonies as a single nation. Absolutely none. In 1790-1843 we sent survey parties and wilderness-trained voyageurs and top intellects armed with Berlitz dictionaries, and zilch, nada, nothing, zero, zip! There is a small industry there now, centered mainly in Toronto and Ottowa, but that's only after 227 years of constant tending, fertilizing, inspiring, coaxing, training and encouragement. A |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Blackcatter Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:54 PM Ya know that many motels in Kissimmee and Orlando fly the Canadian flag along with the U.S. flag in order to encourage the Canucks to stay. Of course the motels are mangaged by Pakistanis and cleaned by Hatians and Jamaicans. My latest stats show that 850,000 Canadians visited Orlando last year. Of course I visited Quebec, so I guess that makes us even. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Bill D Date: 22 Jul 03 - 10:05 PM Canada has the "Red Green Show"...which absolves them of 82.417% of their sins. (about that National Lampoon link of PJ O'Rourke back up there...it is, of course, **Parody**, but there sure is a lot of PJ O'Rourke buried in those mostly un-funny and hateful bits. I decry censorship, but I suspect those vaguely witty characterizations have already been stolen by those who will use them seriously.....ah, well...I've seen worse.) |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: JedMarum Date: 22 Jul 03 - 10:28 PM I spent a few weeks in the People's Republc of China - and one of my Chnese friends told me: In a perfect world, a man would have an American salary, Chinese food, an English country home and a Japanese wife ... In the worst of all worlds, a man would have a Chinese salary, English food, a Japanses apartment, and an American wife. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: JedMarum Date: 22 Jul 03 - 10:29 PM no stereotypes there, eh? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Blackcatter Date: 22 Jul 03 - 11:02 PM I wouldn't mind a Japanese country home... As for a wife I'd prefer to go Australian (I was going to say that I'd prefer to go Down Under, but that didn't sound quite right). |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Bert Date: 23 Jul 03 - 02:59 AM An American is someone who owns a riding lawnmower, a power drill, an electric toothbrush and an exercise machine. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:14 AM I thought when I started this thread that a few ghosts would creep out of a few closets, and what fun it's been so far. At times I thought of bursting into several choruses {chorii?} of This Land is your Land, and at others I've thought, "I hope he/she's not taking this too seriously" There have been, and always will be national stereotypes, and thus prejudices, but we've all got our good and bad points. I love what little of the US I've seen so far, and I hope to see more, but I'm going to Australia this year. Late one night in a bar near Glifada in Greece, where there was an American airbase, I was introduced to a guy who was a little the worse for drink. He said "Hi my name's ......., I'm an American. "Well" I said, "Nobody's perfect", jokingly, and with a smile on my face. Well this guy exploded, and declared a deep desire to shake me warmly by the throat. Is this what they mean when they say that Americans don't do irony?? Giok |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:26 AM I guess that guy hadn't ever read The Virginian...smile when you call me that...or, one of the two of you was just being too subtle... in our house we always saved up the ironing for during the World Series...**bg** actually there was so much irony in my family, esp. my mom's very English side, that we had to watch for rust when one of us would get wet...we also sank pretty easily:->.... I'll stop now, promise... |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jul 03 - 05:03 AM English food aint so bad. Roast beef, puddings and pies , marmalade that's not 99% sugar, proper breakfasts, need I go on? Keith. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Rapparee Date: 23 Jul 03 - 08:51 AM Always bothers me when people yell "Racism" when they mean religious prejudice, or national prejudice. "Anti-semitic" does not mean "anti-Jewish" but that's how it's used, "anti-American" should be "anti-US" and so on. US folks have plenty of ignorance about their own country, too, compatriots of mine. There are those who ask if they need passports to visit New Mexico, if you can use "American Money" in Alaska, or if Idaho really exists at all. The answers to the above are: yes, if you're from some furrin country; of course, in fact, leave all of it and they'll take care of it for you; and nobody knows, not even those who live here. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Blackcatter Date: 23 Jul 03 - 09:07 AM Many Americans (from the U.S. - lest we offend our friends south and north of the border) do not get irony. This is possibly because it is a more subtle form of humor, therefore more difficult to do well, and less likely to be a regular part of mass media TV, movies, books, etc. Americans are therefore less exposed to it and when they are, sometimes (many times) outright don't get it. This is nobody's fault really, people seem the be happy enough with the mass media stuff (or else they would try to see and read other stuff) and the mass media people keep doing the same stuff because enough people regularly will buy it. There are plenty of Americans who enjoy irony and other less-common forms of humor and we search them out, just like we do with folk music (that's why we're here at Mudcat). NOW that the serious part is through . . . We had a great bit of irony in last Sunday's church service that had the congregation laughing & rolling around in the pews: there's a part of the service where the kids come up front and the minister tells them a story or something. We had a lay minister to teach the kids some important words about life. He chose to do this by playing the game Hangman. The last word he used was "perserver." He started out alright, but when an "r" was guessed he missed one of them. Then he put the "s" in the wrong place and incorrectly put an "a" where the 2nd "e" should be. At that point he gave up, tried to write the word, but did so incorrectly, and turned to the kids and told them that to perserver means to never give up even when the going is tough. Some of the anal retentive types in the pews didn't think it was funny, but the rest of us love the beautiful bit of irony that occurred. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jul 03 - 10:54 AM I don't get this thread.... |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST,MMario Date: 23 Jul 03 - 10:54 AM Growing up on Cape Cod there were some who believed that if you crossed the Bridges you would disappear forever....There be monsters out there... Seriously - we lived approx 5 miles from the bridge to the mainland and several members of my High School graduating class had never crossed it in their lives. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 03 - 01:00 PM I don't think it's that Americans have particular prolems with irony, but my impression is that they need to have it confirmed that it is irony before they read it that way (eg "smile when you say that"). Back here it tends to be the other way round, remarks are likely to be taken as meant ironically, unless you actually qualify them with "and I mean that" or some equivalent indication. "That's a nice hat you're wearing." "Why, what's wrong with it?" "I had a lovely time" "You always complain about everything!" "Tony Blair is doing a great job" "I suppose you think you could do better..." (And in that example, the reply is of course meant ironically as well.) |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 23 Jul 03 - 01:12 PM We Americans have more of a problem with sarcasm. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 03 - 02:33 PM "...a problem with sarcasm." You mean in recognising it, or responding to it? Sarcasm is just irony when it is intended to hurt, in some degree at least. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 23 Jul 03 - 02:49 PM .... and that McGrath is the problem. It is a fine line. Irony is either the use of expression in direct opposite to their usual meaning or an event that is opposite of what is expected. Simply saying something is irony does not mean the writer was successful in conveying the intent. That is when it comes across as sarcasm. You can argue that it is the fault of the reader to miss the point, but often it is the writer who is too sure of themselves to realize they miss the boat. You can say that some of the comments posted above are examples of irony, but I would argue that in many cases the intention WAS to hurt, or at least provoke. Ron |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jul 03 - 02:56 PM Okay, I will reveal the Great Canadian WMD, our Secret Weapon, with which we intend to subvert and conquer the USA. Are you ready? Its initials are B.S. Its reality is...Bill Shatner! Yes, the Master of both BAAAAD Acting and Unforgettable vocal renditions of popular favourites. What the hell, maybe I should not have revealed this top secret info at this juncture, but what difference will it make? He's unstoppable. Even now he resides in the heartland of the USA, has become a cultural icon of America, remains the definitive commander of the Enterprise (named after the most famous American warship of all time), and appears regularly on obscure TV shows. His daughter is more attractive than Bush's daughter (and more sensible too), and you can't do anything about it! Be afraid, yanks, be very afraid... p.s. Jim Carey is one of our agents too! Go Canada go! - LH |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:14 PM Simply saying something is irony does not mean the writer was successful in conveying the intent. That is when it comes across as sarcasm. Two ways irony that isn't meant hurtfully can miss the mark - one is when it is taken literally. The other is when it is taken as being mean ironically, but understood to be intended to hurt, ie sarcasm. But very often people will use a claim that they have been speaking ironically as a defence when someone objects to some offensive remark which wasn't meant ironically at all. That has the advantage of implying that the person objecting is lacking in wit or in a sense of humour. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:21 PM I miss your point in the last sentence McGrath. If you say that people are using irony as a defence when their remark wasn't meant ironically (in effect it was meant to hurt), how does that make the person objecting lack a sense of humor? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 03 - 07:39 PM What I'm thinking of is the recent case when the Italian Prime Minister in the European Parliament got angry at a German MEPO and said he'd make a fine concentration camp guard. When the place erupted he tried to wriggle out of it by saying that he'd been talking ironically, implying that Germans didn't understand irony (ie hadn't got a sense of humour.) But very clearly he wasn't being in the least ironic. It's very common for people making racist or sexist cracks to claim "it was just irony" when they get challenged, and to indicate that anybody objecting clearly hasn't got the naus to appreciate subtleties like that. The essential thing in irony is that the surface meaning is actually the reverse of what you appear to be saying. It's not the same as exaggerating for effect, or saying something that you don't mean absolutely literally. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST,Pointer out of facts Date: 23 Jul 03 - 08:38 PM 'course the sun never set on the British Empire-God didn't trust the beggars in the dark! And don't support clowns, they are parodies of Scotsmen. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: LadyJean Date: 23 Jul 03 - 11:19 PM My cousin John, of the Subversive Cheese thread, has a chum in England. When said chum came to visit him in Kentucky, he suggested they run up to Wyoming for the weekend. Suggesting that Americans are not the only ones who are geographically challenged. When I was in high school, our British biology teacher told the class, "The average I.Q. in the United States is 100. The average I.Q. in Great Britain is 98, probably because we imported so many Irish." The whole class signe the card that proclaimed her an honorary Irishman. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: toadfrog Date: 23 Jul 03 - 11:28 PM Giok: So far as I ever knew, before the Argentines invaded the Falklands they were exactly where they are today. Have I missed something important? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 03 - 12:58 AM You are a kook!
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