Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)

Subject: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Roberto
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 11:42 AM

Please help me correct and complete this text, Maggie May as sung by A. L: Lloyd, in English Drinking Songs, Topic TSCD496. Thank you. Roberto.

Here is what I get:

Now come all you young sailors and listen to me plea
And when you've heard me tale, you'll pity me
For I was a goddam (?) fool in the port of Liverpool
The very first time I came home from sea

Now, I paid off at the Home (?), from the port of Sierre Leone
Three-pound-ten a month it was me pay
Well, I wasted all me tin whilst (?) drinking up the gin
With a little girl whose name was Maggie May

Now well do I remember where I first met Maggie May
She was cruising up and down in Canning Place
She was dressed up mighty fine, like a frigate of the line
So being a ranting sailor I gave chase

I kept right on her a track, she went on the other tack
But I caught her and I broke (?) her mizzen line
Next morning I awoke with a head (???) bent (?)and broke
No coat, no vest, no trousers could I find

I asked her where they were, she said – Me good kind sir
They're down at ... (?????) pawnshop, number nine
Now, you've had your cake and bun, and it's time for you to run
Or you'll never make the dockside, lad, in time

To the pawnshop I did go but no trousers could I find
And the police came and took that girl away
And the judge he found her guilty, of robbing a homeward-bounder
So now she's doing time in Botany Bay

Oh Maggie, Maggie May, they've taken you away
Never more to roam alone (?)down Canning Place
For you've you robbed too many whalers, and you've ... (?????) so many sailors
And you'll never see old Lime Street anymore

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 12:20 PM

I've heard "Kelly's Pawn shop" as recently as last nite.
"Never more to roam down Lyme Street any more" Is how I learned it.
"You've robbed so many whalers and you've dosed so many sailors"
Presumedly given them some form of VD.:

Don

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 12:34 PM

There is a version in the DT.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: curmudgeon
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 01:00 PM

Although I first heard this by Lloyd on EDS, I actually learned it from a retired merchant officer from Chester. His version was almost identical except for using Lloyd's last verse as a chorus.

Words you're missing are: I played off from the home; while drinking up the gin;head more bent than broke: Park Lane pawn shop; the judge he guilty founf her (rhymes with bounder) poxed too many sailors. Enjoy -- Tom

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Roberto
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:53 AM

Thank you. Roberto

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: GUEST,Tommy in Liverpool
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:01 PM

You will find the lyrics to this song on radio merseyside website, along with an intersting article about Maggie herself by a member of the Spinners.

This song is n anthem in liverpool, ad there are several different versions, but the radio Merseyside lyrics are as good as any.

Subject: Lyr Add: MAGGIE MAY
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:31 PM

I recorded this version for Folk Legacy:

Come all ye sailors bold
And when me tale is told
I know you all will sadly pity me,
For I was a bloomin' fool
In the port of Liverpool
On the voyage when I first paid off from sea.

They paid me off at home for a voyage to Leone,
Two pounds ten a month had been me pay
While jingling me tin I was sadly taken in
By a lady by the name of Maggie May.

When I sailed into her I didn't have a care
She was cruising up and down old Canning Place
Dressed in a gown so fine like a frigate of the line
And me being a sailor gave her chase.

   And me Maggie Maggie May
   They've taken you away
   You'll slave upon Van Diemans cruel shore
   You robbed many a sailor many a drunken whaler
   But you'll never cruise down Paradise Street no more.

Next day when I awoke I found that I was broke
I didn't have a penny to me name
I had to hock me suit, me "John L's" and me boots
Down in the parkway pawnshop number 9.

She was chained and sent away from Liverpool one day
The lads did cheer as she sailed down the bay
And every sailor lad, he only was too glad
That thay sent the old thing off to Botany Bay

   And me Maggie Maggie May they have taken you away
   And you'll slave upon Van Dieman's cruel shore
   You've robbed many a sailor many a drunken whaler
   But you'll never cruise down Paradise Street no more.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Abby Sale
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 08:45 PM

GUEST,Tommy in Liverpool,

I find the radio Merseyside site but I don't find anything there about lyrics or MS May. Can you give URL?

Ta.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: curmudgeon
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 08:37 AM

For Hughie Jones comments, go here.

Also, click on the other two links at the top of the page -- Tom

Subject: Lyr Add: MAGGIE MAY
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 12:36 PM

This is the version I've always heard & sung. Taken from http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gerry.jones/lpllyrics1.html#maggie


MAGGIE MAY.

Oh, Maggie, Maggie May, they have taken her away,
and she'll never walk down Lime Street any more.
Oh, she robbed those lime-juice sailors,
and the captains of the whalers,
That dirty robbing no-good Maggie May.

O gather round, you sailor boys, and listen to my plea,
And when you've heard my tale you'll pity me;
For I was a goddamn fool, in the port of Liverpool
the first time that I came home from sea.
I was paid off at the Home, from the port of Sierra Leone,
The three pounds ten a month that was me pay.
With a pocket full of tin, I was very soon taken in
By a girl with the name of Maggie May,. CHORUS.

Oh the first time I saw Maggie, she took my breath away,
she was cruising up and down old Canning Place.
She'd a figure so divine, like a frigate of the line,
so me, being a sailor, I gave chase, CHORUS;

In the morning I awoke, I was flat & stony broke.
No jacket, waistcoat, trousers could I find,
And when I asked her where; she said," My very good sir,
they're down in Kelly's pawnshop, number 9."

To the pawnshop I did go, no clothes there did I find,
And the police they took that girl from me away,
And the judge he guilty found her,
of robbing the homeward-bounder,
And paid her passage out to Botany Bay. CHORUS.

There are many variants to this song.
I have heard various amounts given as "the ££££ a month that was me pay" and after her "figure so divine", I first heard it as ..."and her voice was so refined."
I have used "frigate of the line" as it sounds more nautical, even though Liverpool sailors were much more likely to be Merchant Navy than RN.
and I have seen/heard " the judge he guilty found her, of robbing the homeward-bounder, " used as the middle lines of the chorus.

The song has quite a modern feel about it, and there's not much antique about the words, and I thought its "tradition" started about 1960. However, Herb Hughes (RN) heard it sung by Liverpool matelots around Plymouth as early as 1947.
Roger French, ex-pat scouser and mariner from Texas, writes;
" I first heard the song in 1958, sung by Stan Hugill when he was bo'sun at the Outward Bound Sea School in Aberdovey. A reasonable provenance, I'd think! He said, and I remember this very clearly, that Maggie May was originally a London lady and song, who got adopted by Liverpool. sailors. Canning Town became Canning Place, for example, Limehouse became Lime Street. Interestingly enough, when Stan sang the song back then, she cruised in Paradise Street, not Lime Street. His version was considerably more "raunchy" than most, with reference to Maggie's "old red flannel drawers" and other unmentionables.
Stan's chorus was:
"Oh Maggie, Maggie May, they have take her away,
for a slave upon that cruel devil's shore.
Oh she robbed many a whaler, and many a drunken sailor,
but she'll never cruise down Paradise Street no more."

The version you have is indeed, I think, a product of the early 60s and arose from the popularisation of Liverpool, both nationally and internationally".

Ian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:44 AM

The tune and chorus of Maggie May appear to derive from Benjamin Hanby's Darling Nelly Gray, composed in 1856. Transportation from Britain ended in 1868 although it had become unusual several years earlier.

So unless:
   a) Hanby's song was based on an older sea song; or
   b) Maggie May was composed much later with the intention of sounding like an old song;

there could be a strong possibility of the song originating between 1856 and 1868.

What was the average wage of a merchant seaman in those days? £2-10-0, £3-10-0, £4-10-0, or none of the above?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:21 AM

George Ridley (1836 - 64) composed Keep your feet still Geordie Hinny to the same tune as Darling Nelly Gray so which came first, and who borrowed from whom?

Subject: Lyr Add: MAGGIE MAY (A. L. Lloyd)
From: stormalong
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:36 AM

This is my transcription from Lloyd but I'm not able to check it just at the moment. The square brackets are my own infill. I'm pretty sure the last verse should be the chorus, but I've dropped it and taken a chorus from Hugill.

Rik
=====


Now come all you young sailors and listen to me plea
And when you've heard me tale you'll pity me
For I was a goddamn fool in the port of Liverpool
The very first time I came home from sea

[Now] I [was] paid off at the Home from the port of Sierra Leone
Three pound ten a month it was me pay
But I wasted all me tin whilst drinking up the gin
With a little girl whose name was Maggie May

Now well do I remember where I first met Maggie May
She was cruising up and down in Canning Place
She was dressed up mighty fine like a frigate of the line
So being a rampant sailor I gave chase

I kept right on her track, she went on the other tack
But I caught her and I broke her mizzen line
Next morning I awoke with a head more bent than broke
No coat, nor vest, nor trousers could I find

I asked her where they were, she said me good kind sir
They're down at Park Lane pawn shop number nine
Now you've had your cake and bun and it's time for you to run
Or you'll never make the dockside, lad, in time

To the pawn shop I did go, but no trousers could I find
And the police came and took that girl away
And the judge he found her guilty of robbing a homeward bounder
So now she's doing time in Botany Bay

Oh Maggie, Maggie May, they've taken you away
Never more to roam alone down Canning Place
For you robbed too many whalers and you boxed too many sailors
Now you'll never see old Lime Street anymore.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:17 PM

On the net- George Ridley (1835-1864) wrote "Keep Your Feet Still, Geordie Hinny," but the music was appended by Joe Wilson in 1871.

I have no means of verifying these statements, perhaps Malcolm Douglas would comment.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:37 PM

Unless the usu. "Maggie May" melody has trad relatives, it's far more likely that it comes from "Nellie Grey" rather than the other way round.

GUEST Ian: you wouldn't recall the words of any other of Hugill's "raunchy" songs, would you?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:20 PM

Stormalong-

"For you robbed too many whalers and you boxed too many sailors"

Surely you mean "poxed."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:50 PM

Hugill says "Lime Street" appeared in the more modern and skiffle versions. A lot of people have rewritten "Maggie May"
to suit themselves.

'Poxed' is more likely, since 'boxing the Jesuit' meant masturbation (Grose, Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue, various editions). The lines appear in different form in the versions in Hugill:

For you robbed a lot of tailors and skinned so many sailors,...
For she robbed so many sailora, And also lots of whalers,...
Oh, you robbed many a whaler an' many a drunken sailor,...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:16 AM

I don't think that George Ridley (writer of 'Blaydon Races', 'Cushie Butterfield' et al) had anything at all to do with 'Keep Yor Feet Still', or that there's any reason to doubt that Joe Wilson wrote it. He published the song in his Tyneside songs, ballads and drolleries. Part 2: 'Teun - Nelly Grey'.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: pavane
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:32 AM

That Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue is a wonderful book.
It has also explained for me one line from the "Streets of Forbes"

"He showed the traps some fun"

Traps, I now see, are defined as "Constables, Thief-takers", before the days of a police force.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Roberto
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:06 AM

Now I'd say we got it. The fist line of the second stanza to me is: Now I paid off at the Home. Ok with Stormalong transciption, with poxed instead of boxed. Thanks. R

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:29 AM

When I was an apprentice on the docks in Liverpool back in the 50s I often used to walk home via Scotland Road.
I'm pretty sure that it has now disappeared completely, but even in those days much of the property in the road was derelict, largely due to bomb damage, but one of the buildings left standing among the rubble was Berry's Pawnshop.
The locals insisted that it was the original 'Kelly's Pawnshop' from the song.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A. L. Lloyd's Maggie May
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:27 AM

It was probably Rotheram's really, but it didn't fit the meter so they changed it to Kelly's!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 06:10 PM

The well-known sailor song "Maggie May" was widely popularized by Bert Lloyd on the LP "English Drinking Songs," and by many more since.

Stan Hugill's "Shanties from the Seven Seas" claims that the original song was called "Charming Nellie Ray" and dates from 1830.

Hugill's authority for this statement is an excerpt from the 1830-31 shipboard diary of seaman Charles Picknell as it appeared in the periodical "Sea Breezes" ca1955-56. It was reprinted in the Australian "Singabout" in 1957.

"Sea Breezes" had gotten "Charming Nellie Ray" in turn from an article in the London nautical publication "Blue Peter" in 1930.

There were originally five stanzas, but "Sea Breezes" printed only the first and the fifth.

Picknell's complete journal has been republished meticulously in "The Kains: Female Convict Vessel" (Adelaide: Sullivan's Cove, 1989), pp. 9-40. This edition attempts to maintain every peculiarity of Picknell's spelling and punctuation, both of which were rather poor in 1830.

An examination of this reprint buttresses suspicions that the song, "Nellie Ray," is considerably more recent than 1830-31. It appears at the very end of the journal, after a few additional notes by Picknell and a list of Kain's provisions. Here is the full and exact title and text as reprinted:

                       Nelly Ray. (Song.)

I was paid off at the home,
From a voyage to Sierra Leone;
Three pounds monthly, was my pay.
        When I drew the cash I grinned,
        But I very soon got skinned
By a lass who lived in Peter Street, called Ray.

I shall ne'er forget the day
When I met Nellie Ray.
'Twas at the corner of the Canning Place;
        With a mighty crin-o-line
        Like a frigate of the line,
As if I were a slaver she gave chase.

Saying, 'What cheer ! homeward bounder,
Just you come along with me';
So in Peter Street we had some gin and tea;
        It was morn when I awoke
        Then I found that I was broke
For sweet Nellie had skedaddled with my money.


To the magistrate I went,
Where I stated my lament :
They soon had poor Nelly in the Dock.
        And the Judge he guilty found her,
        For she'd robbed a homeward bounder,
And he sent her to Van Dieman's far away.

Oh! my charming Nellie Ray,
They have taken you away,
You have gone to Van Diemen's cruel shore;
        For you've skinned so many tailors,
        And you've robbed so many sailors,
That we'll look for you in Peter Street no more.

This could hardly have been written in 1831. Why? The most obvious difficulty is the word skedaddle, which, as shown by the OED, originated in the United States in about 1861. But perhaps the OED missed earlier examples. We have no reason to think so, but even if they had, that would not explain the general style of the piece, the melody of which is precisely that of Benjamin Hanby's hit, "Darling Nelly Gray," not published till 1856 (Boston: Oliver Ditson). But perhaps that isn't conclusive either. Perhaps Hanby (in Ohio) "stole" the tune from English deep-water sailors and perhaps his song and not "Nellie Ray" is the "parody." But even so there's the matter of wages. An able seaman's pay in the British merchant service was generally two pounds ten shillings a month in 1831: it seems not to have risen to three pounds until about 1880 (that's what Joseph Conrad received monthly for his voyage in the Palestine in 1881), but in Australia it was two pounds ten as late as 1908. (This is the figure given in more recently collected "Maggie May" versions.) "Slavers" became especially prominent in a British and Australian context only after the passage of the Pacific Islanders' Protection Act of 1872, which provided that British warships would disrupt the illicit trade in kidnapped Melanesian laborers ("blackbirding"); these laborers were frequently brought to Queensland. But, after all, maybe some earlier slavery is meant.

All special pleadings for an "1830-31" date for "Nelly Ray" collapse in a heap, however, when we consider the entire phrase "With a mighty crin-o-line,/ Like a frigate of the line." What real connection could there by between a "crinoline" (a kind of petticoat that became popular, if the OED may be trusted, only in the mid- to late 1840s) and a frigate of the line?

In fact, warships began to be rigged with so-called "crinoline frames" at some point after 1877 for defense against the newly deployed "locomotive" topedo, the direct ancestor of the self-propelled torpedoes of the twentieth century. A warship's "crinoline" consisted of a wire mesh frame which, extending below the surface of the water, could snare and stop the early, slow-moving torpedos of the day. The first unmistakable example in the OED is from 1887, but the "crinoline frame" was discussed as a potential defense some ten years earlier in "Torpedo Warfare," Westminster Review (Oct. 1877), p. 171.

All these factors combine to show that the "Nellie Ray" associated with Picknell's journal could not have been written before late 1877; ten years later than that might be a closer approximation. How it found its way into Picknell's notebook of his voyage from Britain to Australia fifty years earlier is unknown, but the most likely explanation may be that he – or someone else – was taken by the song and copied it into the final blank pages of the journal because of its releveance to Picknell's youthful voyage on a "female convict ship." This would not be the first time that much later material was appended, innocently or not, to writings of many years earlier.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:41 PM

I just listened on Spotify to a recording of A. L. Lloyd singing MAGGIE MAY, and I hear it exactly as stormalong transcribed it above except that in verse 3 line 4, I hear "ranting sailor" rather than "rampant sailor."

And in the last verse, although "poxed" makes sense, it really sounds more like "boxed."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: Snuffy
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 12:37 PM

Another factor weighing against an 1830 date is that the Liverpool Sailors' Home, in Canning Place, did not open until 1850.

A date in the 1880's is indicated for versions with the line "I had to pawn my suit, my John L's and my boots". The prizefighter John L Sullivan gave his name to "Long Johns" or "John L's", but as he wasn't born until 1859, he didn't become really famous until after 1880. (But that could conceivably be a later addition to a pre-existing song).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 05:06 PM

Good point about 1850, Snuffy.

That alone shows that Picknell couldn't have written the text down in the 1830s. It's also perfectly consistent with the post-1877 date I suggested.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 11:30 AM

GUEST was me.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 12:16 PM

The idiosyncratic spelling in Picknell's journal would suggest that, if it were he who wrote down 'Nellie Ray', then he must have copied it from some other hard copy source.

But is any such source known which pre-dates the 1930 'Blue Peter' publication of Picknell's journal?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 03:20 PM

Didn't the Beatles (John L. & Co) record a fragment of this song?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 04:01 PM

Yes, it's on the Let It Be album.

Apparently it had been a basic part of the Quarrymen's repertoire and John Lennon continued to make home recordings of it throughout his life.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 05:50 PM

Do any of the reprints say where the original diary is to be found?
A fifty year gap between the main entries and a later addition should be easily spotted in several ways.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 08:06 PM

Steve, according to the anonymous 1989 editor, "Picknell's unique account has been transcribed from the only text now known, that in the 1930 Blue Peter."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST,Richard Edmunds
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 07:30 AM

I have written an article on the history of 'Maggie May', from the persepctive of a Beatles fan and researcher, rather than an expert in traditional song. The research I have done matches alot of what has been written here in this thread. I believe the 1830 dating, as appears on Wikipedia, is incorrect and that it is very much the product of the Music Hall era, a parody of 'Darling Nelly Gray'. It most likely dated to the early 1870's, and was possibly first performed at the The Eastern Music Hall in Limehouse, in the wwek 9-16th October 1870, by the London comic Edgar Wilding in front of an audience of sailors from the West India docks and 'ladies of the night'.

It can be viewed at the adress below:

https://www.docdroid.net/sGHmAgV/maggie-may-the-story-of-a-liverpool-classic.pdf.html

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 06:13 PM

Outstanding work, Richard!

(Though I doubt The Quarrymen performed "Maggie May" in 1857.)

Your extensive research is much appreciated, at least by a few of us.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 05:59 AM

Excellent work indeed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Maggie May (from A. L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST,Richard Edmunds
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 11:39 AM

Thank you Lighter and Snuffy. Glad it was of interest to some, maybe one day someone will find a defiinitive answer to it's origins..or maybe not. But that's as close as I have been able to come to finding an answer. Well done for noticing my deliberate error Lighter...thought I'd caught them all, but there is always one slips through the net, noted and corrected!