Subject: RE: Origins: Tiny Fish For Japan - What's it about?
From:
wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM
On the general precedent that we paste in long music info in case its source site disappears, here's the stuff off Briggs'-- because I was so frustrated when the first several links to it, upthread, were dead links. I wanted it to be there for me, and for time!
~Susan
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Subj: Turtlebacks and Tiny Fish Date: Tue, Jul 16, 1996 9:12 PM EDT From: adalmyn@man.net X-From: adalmyn@man.net (Tony Dalmyn) Sender: owner-cdnfolk-l@io.org To: cdnfolk@io.org
I have found part of the answer to my own question: what is a turtleback. But it leads to other questions.
I visited the library again and checked Barry's "Ships of the Great Lakes". He discusses the history of whalebacks - with several old photos and explains that the turtleback is a variation on a unique Great Lakes ship design. The first whaleback was built in 1888 on a design by Alexander McDougall. In total, 43 whalebacks were built, the last one in 1896. Whalebacks were iron ships, with a flat bottom and rounded sides. The rounded sides curved inward on the top. This design tended to shed water, and it helped these ships right themselves carrying bulk cargo. The rounded sides came to a snout, rather than a bow at the front. The normal steering house and forecastle were replaced by turret structures. The photos suggest U-boats - riding high in the water. These were big vessels, capable of ocean voyages. The main drawback was the size of the hatches, which were not big enough to accomodate the large clamshells used by many ports.
The turtleback was a variant on the whaleback. Barry says turtlebacks had rounded forward decks. Barry doesn't say how many were built, or in what sizes. Whalebacks were freighters. The turtleback design wasn't necessarily limited to large ships.
In "Tiny Fish for Japan" Stan sings about a specific place which has a Norfolk Hotel "Where Patterson's Creek muddy waters run down" which has a fleet (? how many boats) of rusting turtlebacks that are still fishing.
I get a vision of Stan watching the boats in the harbour and having a few beers with some sailors to get the story that inspired the song. The references to place and the very specific refererence to this type of boat indicate there is a real man who shared some knowledge with Stan.
So, some questions that I'm not sure I'm going to answer:
1. what's the town
2. are there still turtleback fishing boats - how big are/were they
3. any info about the collapse of the Great Lakes fishery
4. any info about a fish export market in Japan
Once again, Stan has used an interesting and obscure detail to authenticate his story and connect him to the working men he sings about.
PS thanks to Rob Brady who shed some light on modern usage; the technical terms for the freighter designs seem to have been applied to smaller fishing vessels.
Tony Dalmyn
"It is the nature of idea to be communicated: written, spoken, done. The idea is like grass. It craves light, thrives on crossbreeding, grows better for being stepped on." Ursula K. LeGuin, "The Dispossessed" (Harper & Row, 1974)
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Subj: Turtlebacks Date: Tue, Jul 16, 1996 11:35 PM EDT From: marti102@gold.tc.umn.edu X-From: marti102@gold.tc.umn.edu (George B Martin) Sender: owner-cdnfolk-l@io.org To: cdnfolk@io.org
I heard Stan in concert perform Tiny Fish at the old coffee house Extempore in Minneapolis. Garnett reported that Stan, in his quest for authenticity, spent time "turning green" on an old turtleback out on the lake. He apparently did much more than just observe from the shore.
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Subj: turtlebacks Date: Wed, Jul 17, 1996 7:09 PM EDT From: twells@mail.coin.missouri.edu X-From: twells@mail.coin.missouri.edu (Thomas P. Wells) Sender: owner-cdnfolk-l@io.org To: cdnfolk@io.org
All of the info on whalebacks is great, and good background. There are still one or two whaleback museum ships on the Great Lakes. However, the TURTLEBACK bears no relation whatsoever to the whaleback.
A Turtleback is a very specific type of fishing boat, with a round hull form and completely enclosed deck and work area..under a shell, hence the nickname "turtleback" applied to them by the fishermen. You can still see them working in some areas. Stateside, Bayfield, Wisconsin is home to several which tend gill nets, pond nets and such in Chequamegon Bay and the Apostle Islands. They are small..usually 35 to 40 feet. They have larger opening doors on the sides, used to pull in and let out the nets. They have a small raised pilothouse astern, so the helmsman can see. The fishermen actually work inside the boat, under the "shell", which keeps them out of the weather. (Important on the Great Lakes!) I am sure there must be places along the Canadian shore with active turtlebacks.
I have to believe that Stan Rogers knew or talked to fishermen when he wrote TINY FISH.. from what I've learned on this list, he was usually very careful to "get it right." His reference to turtlebacks could only have come from the fishermen.
Turtleback returning homeWhen I listen to TINY FISH, I remember seeing a lone turtleback coming in one evening to Bayfield. The fishermen were actually cleaning their catch, and throwing the scraps overboard for the gulls. That boat in the sunset with the clouds of gulls around it is worthy of song.
Back to my quiet observation. I don't usually pipe up like this, but felt I should share.
Tom
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Subj: Re: Turtlebacks Date: Fri, Jul 19, 1996 11:25 PM EDT From: gerry@freenet.hamilton.on.ca X-From: gerry@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Brian Morton) Sender: owner-cdnfolk-l@io.org To: marti102@gold.tc.umn.edu (George B Martin) CC: cdnfolk@io.org
On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, George B Martin wrote:
I heard Stan in concert perform Tiny Fish at the old coffee house Extempore in Minneapolis. Garnet reported that Stan, in his quest for authenticity, spent time "turning green" on an old turtleback out on the lake. He apparently did much more than just observe from the shore.
I've heard this story from Valarie and it is true.
Stan spent the day on a Port Dover perch fishing boat, crewed by a High School friend of Garnet's. The punchline of the story usually goes:
"So what did you learn about Fishing Stan?"
"Not to throw up into the wind."
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Subj: Tiny Fish from Port Dover Date: Thu, Jul 25, 1996 8:36 AM EDT From: adalmyn@man.net X-From: adalmyn@man.net (Tony Dalmyn) Sender: owner-cdnfolk-l@io.org To: cdnfolk@io.org
I had asked if anyone knew the Great Lakes fishing port that Stan Rogers described with the lines "Where Patterson's Creek's muddy waters run down ... past the Norfolk Hotel ... " etc. The consensus was Port Dover, and the story of Stan's research - his trip on a trawler out of Port Dover was recounted. Thank you.
I looked at some detailed maps in the library to identify the creek or river that runs into Lake Erie at Port Dover. Patterson's Creek runs down and joins the Lynn River above Port Dover. I looked in Bell Ontario's rural directories and found a listing for a Norfolk Tavern in Port Dover - that's 1995 of course.
My old Canadiana has an entry for Port Dover which mentions the large fishing fleet - which is suggested to be the largest freshwater fleet in the world. It has a picture of a couple of vessels. Canadiana does not identify the type, but courtesy of Stan Rogers, I can identify them as turtlebacks.
Port Dover is in Norfolk County. The telephone directory lists several businesses and government agencies with the word Norfolk in the title.
Some geography books comment on the fishery and the decline of the fishery. The modern fishery is primarily for perch - a small sunfish that does not grow above about 1 1/2 pounds. The books refer to pollution of Lake Erie, destruction of shoreline spawning habitat, and perhaps overfishing as the causes of decline in the fishery.
The books don't mention whether there are exports to Japan - but I don't doubt Stan's accuracy. It's funny how Stan was able to catch that detail and use it as the heart and soul of the song.
The maps and geography books appear to indicate that Patterson's Creek flows into the Lynn between Simcoe and Port Dover - Simcoe is inland, about 9 miles away. It is not clear if Patterson's Creek is navigable and if any boats tie up that far inland. The use of the name indicates that Stan was completely familiar with the area. It may be that local usage calls the Lynn River Patterson's Creek - or perhaps Stan used the name of the tributary because it worked better in the song.
Also of interest - Port Dover featured in some incidents in the War of 1812. General Brock sailed from there to Amherstburg and Detroit in the summer of 1812 - on board the schooner Nancy. Port Dover was burned by the Americans later in the war, and Canadians retaliated by raiding and burning Buffalo.
Note: For more info on Stan's music in regard to the war of 1812 and General Brock, see Tony Dalmyn's treatise:
Stan Rogers and General Brock's War After learning those details, I realized how well Tiny Fish is connected to the other songs on FFW and to Stan's earlier music. It's not just that it's about the Great Lakes and has old fishermen hanging around. Port Dover is a community with a long colourful history, and a long tradition of honest work by working men and women. It is in decline; or at least has not grown into a Halifax or Toronto.
Another one of the best of the best.
Tony Dalmyn adalmyn@man.net
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Subj: Re: Tiny Fish from Port Dover Date: Fri, Jul 26, 1996 5:28 AM EDT From: gerry@freenet.hamilton.on.ca X-From: gerry@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Brian Morton) Sender: owner-cdnfolk-l@io.org To: adalmyn@man.net (Tony Dalmyn) CC: cdnfolk@io.org
Tony:
I missed your post asking about Port Dover, else I would have responded sooner. Stan was without question writing about this little town on Lake Erie.
I spent a summer (1986) working in Port Dover at a small professional Theatre there called the LIGHTHOUSE FESTIVAL THEATRE which operates out of the old town hall on Market Street. They put on 5 plays a summer there. (In fact in Ariel's liner notes to the song TINY FISH in the FRESH WATER lp insert makes reference to it).
The Norfolk Hotel (circa 1880) is right across the road from the theatre, and is the waterhole for the fishfolk of the town (also the tobacco farmers.) It is a real working class joint and the tourists that sweep into the town every summer wouldn't be caught dead there. Stan played at the Norfolk a few times in the early days. But I don't think that he would have been too well liked as C&W music is the rage.
The touristy part of town starts right at the T junction where the Norfolk sits. This leads to a lovely Beach and passes right by half a dozen "amusement arcades" with video games in them.
The main fish industry in town is Lake Erie Perch. All of the restaurants in town feature it as their speciality. In recent years P.D. has become something of a sports diving centre, there being several noted Shipwrecks discovered near by, most notably the 1850s paddle steamer ATLANTIC which has been the centre of much legal wrangling between a US salvage firm which bought the stock of the original shipping line and thus claims to "own" the wreck, and the Ontario Government which asserts that as the ship is in Ontario waters and has been declared a historic site it should be off limits to salvage.
Cheers
Brian
PS Winnipeg's Dave Clemant should know more as he grew up in Port Dover.
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Subject: re: turtlebacks & tiny fish Date: Sun, Jul 28, 1996 9:04 PM EDT From: owner-cdnfolk-l@io.org X-From redgreen@io.org Mon Jul 22 21:19:09 1996
Hello all:
I've been enjoying the discussion of turtlebacks lately. I grew up in Port Dover and my grandfather, uncles, and brother worked on the fishing fleet based there. I had never heard the term "turtleback" until I heard Stan sing, "Tiny Fish for Japan". I only knew them as fishing tugs. Tony Dalmyn had asked for some background about the fishing situation and about tiny fish. Here are my memories which span about 45 years (no pun intended). My apology if this gets a bit rambling.
First, re some references in the song. Port Dover is a small fishing town on the shores of Lake Erie. When I was young it boasted the largest registry of fresh water fishing boats in the world. At one time over 300 tugs were registered with Port Dover as home port. From here they spread out over all the great lakes to actually fish. In Port Dover itself the boats kept three large fish plants going all year round and provided work for about 500 people. (Dover is about 30 miles from Hamilton. Just drive down highway #6 and you will eventually get there. On the way, stop at Hewitt's for the best ice cream going. It's just about half way there. Once there, stop at the Arbour for a foot long hot dog.
In the 1950s I recall that the catch was varied. I remember my grandad bringing home white fish, blue and yellow pickerell, lake trout, perch, and other species I don't recall right now. But, by the time I left Dover in 1966 this had dramatically changed. I don't know if it was pollution, over- fishing, or the silting up of Lake Erie (a shallow and sandy lake) but by the mid sixtys, perch and smelt were the only fish being brought in in any quantity. This decline had its ripple effect of course. When I left, only one of the fish plants was still in operation. The fleet had dramatically shrunk.
Yes, and those "tiny fish for Japan" were the primary fish export. As a kid I remember going smelt fishing at night on the beach. Bonfires and bushel baskets, wading in the shallow water when the fish were "running", scooping them up in the baskets (actually, they were "peck" baskets, 1/2 a bushel, they drained much easier), and then back to shore and into the large fry pan. I never would have guessed that they would become the main stay twenty years later.
Smelt was the main catch my brother caught. They would net them, haul them in, dump the nets in the back of the boat, and then shovel them into flats along with ice. Once back in port the flats were taken out and the fish simply frozen into larger blocks of ice. These were then shipped out to customers in Japan. To them the smelt were a fine eating fish. As far as I know this is still the situation.
When I was last home in April I was talking with some friends. It seems as though the lake is slowly coming back. Certainly the perch catch is improved and they are even catching some pickerell again although I don't believe they are supposed to actually bring these in. I believe Stan mentions something about fishermen not being allowed to keep what they catch in one of his songs although I don't think this was a reference to the Lake Erie situation. But, the fish plants are still silent, the giant net racks (the few that are left) are rusted, and the shanties along the creek are mostly now craft shops.
Oh yes, I grew up next door to the Norfolk Hotel and my mom still lives in the same house, the little white one next to the Dairy Bar for any of you who know Port Dover. There are still a few amusement things down by the harbour although far fewer than there were when I was a kid. But, as far as I know, the creek is named Black Creek not Paterson's Creek. I asked a bunch of the old timers around and none knew the creek as anything other than Black Creek so perhaps Stan found a reference that I never knew about.
Times have changed the harbour quite a bit. The Stelco and Hydro plants built just three miles down the shore from Dover have led to the construction of a totally new marina area. The skeleton ribs of the old burned barge that I swam around as a kid (don't tell my mom) is now ten feet beneath the new ground level. And, the fishing boats hardly ever birth along the banks of the creek. But these things exist in my memory still and one day I'll put them all into song or story. I guess this is why Stan's music and the music of the maritimes reaches out to me as strongly as it does.
Dave Clement Port Dover (yesterday), Winnipeg (today)
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Subj: Thanks - Port Dover Date: Mon, Jul 29, 1996 8:32 AM EDT From: adalmyn@man.net X-From: adalmyn@man.net (Tony Dalmyn) Sender: owner-cdnfolk-l@io.org To: cdnfolk@io.org CC: d.clement@genie.com
The information about turtlebacks and Port Dover from several sources - Rob Brady, Tom Wells, Brian Morton and Dave Clement has been appreciated. I know there were a couple of others as well who posted on this topic but I didn't save all the messages.
Tony Dalmyn adalmyn@man.net
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