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Is Opera rubbish?
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 16 - 08:21 PM Well that won't do for me. If I'm listening to the greatest music I have to engage and concentrate. Each to his own I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 08:02 PM To appreciate different styles or arts such as the opera, you kind of have to zone out from your "normal" life, forget who you are, and just submit to the sounds. It's kind of like meditation. You'll feel great afterwards. _____________________________________________ Feel Great With Music and Herbs |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 16 - 07:50 PM What a terrible thread hijack. Apologies! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 16 - 07:39 PM Ah yes, the Haber process. A way of making cheap nitrogenous fertiliser (at huge energy cost) that destroys soil structure and beneficial soil bacteria and which causes erosion, and which produces third-rate food. That Haber! |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 16 - 07:23 PM He was pretty unpleasant about Mendelssohn too, Jack, and I definitely do not go along with Wagner's evaluation of him. The actual truth about Caravaggio is in dispute and likely always will be, so best leave him out of the mix. It's just me, maybe, but I dislike the idea of listening to music which I know was composed or performed by antisemites or Nazi sympathisers. I struggled for a while with Richard Strauss, whose music I love, and decided that he was often unwise though not of Nazi sentiment. Likewise the conductor Wilhelm Furtwangler, who was an even more marginal case, combining stupidity with, in his case, naivety. It's notable that Yehudi Menuhin worked with him quite enthusiastically after the war. Carl Orff fails the test for me, as does Herbert Von Karajan, whose recordings, in my opinion, have in any case dated quite badly. Many other eminent figures refused to stay in Germany, and those who did stay had questions to answer about their art contributing to the Nazi cause, which it was Hitler's priority that it should and which they knew was happening. I don't have to love someone's politics or behaviour to love their music but I do have a sort of red line. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Jack Campin Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:17 PM Much of Wagner's anti-semitism was actually anti-Meyerbeerism writ large - and most present-day listeners would go along with his evaluation of that overblown mediocrity. Most of Wagner's output is just too long for me to fit in. The only one I've heard more than once is Tristan. I have always preferred really short operas (Bluebeard's Castle, L'Enfant et les Sortileges, Erwartung). Most enthralling operas I've heard in recent years: - Harry Partch's "Delusion of the Fury" (went to see that two nights running, never done that before) - Dusapin's "Perela" (on CD) - wonderful orchestral sounds |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Airymouse Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:01 PM Oh good, another off-topic discussion. The Wagner problem is not restricted to music and painting. Pontryagin and Teichmuller were anti-semetic, and Teichmuller showed up at Emmy Noether's lectures in his (Brown Shirt) uniform. Of course, mathematics is held to a higher standard than the personal life of the mathematician who discovered it. In chemistry, Ernst Haber provides a more extreme example. He won the Nobel Prize for his process of fixing nitrogen ("Fix" is jargon for getting it in a usable compound, namely ammonia) Without Haber's invention Malthus would surely have been proven right. But Haber was also responsible for the production of Zyklon-B gas and its uses in both World Wars, and it is reasonable to presume that his wifew's suicide was on this account |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: MGM·Lion Date: 25 Jan 16 - 03:21 PM The dislike of Wagner for his anti-semitism does throw up the ever-present problem - discussed quite a lot on Mudcat - of the separation or non-separation of a creative artist from his or her personal life and beliefs .,,.,. Right on, Will. I can't see that the fact that Caravaggio was a feared drunken quarreler and duellist, culminating in his becoming a murderer and having to flee Rome under sentence of death until he contrived somehow a degree of pardon, detracts for a second from his "The Supper at Emmaeus" in the National Gallery, London, being one of the world's greatest paintings. I am obviously not one to condone antisemitism; and as it happens Wagner is far from being one of my favourite composers (though my late wife and I did quite enjoy the ENO's The Flying Dutchman about 20 years ago); but that is because his music doesn't generally appeal to me — rather too portentous for my taste — not because of any opinions the man himself might have held. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: keberoxu Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:54 PM Nigel Douglas wrote: "If you want the unvarnished truth about a prima donna, ask another." He was writing about Adele Leigh vis-a-vis Kathleen Ferrier. But what that quote brings to my mind is Lanfranco Rasponi's book of interviews called The Last Prima Donnas. Rasponi is dead, and so is practically everyone whom he interviewed; but some of those interviews are a glimpse into a century long past, and a tradition of which some parts survive and some are gone. Rasponi had an ax to grind, being the former promotor for Renata Tebaldi, and thus the competition with Callas actually informed his livelihood. However, what these retired professional singers, some of them much much older than Rasponi, have to say about Callas is sometimes disarming. Had to bring this up in response to dear Mister Shaw. Most often said to Rasponi, regarding Callas: "She sang with three voices!" The really elderly Italian women, however, are mostly more discerning. "She sang with three voices, only one of which was authentic," says one of them. Augusta Oltrabella, old enough to have sung for Toscanini, offered a unique reminiscence. Oltrabella was on a first-name basis with Elvira de Hidalgo, another famous opera artist, who invited Oltrabella to come and hear a very young woman who was a promising student of de Hidalgo's. De Hidalgo specialized in the coloratura niche, the "soprano leggiero." And this was the specialty that de Hidalgo spent years of schooling on Maria Callas, whom Oltrabella recalled, reminiscing on the invitation, as a young woman so obese as to resemble a whale, and obviously too poor to afford shoes that fit; the shoes on her feet were literally torn so that her feet could get inside them. And young Callas owed to de Hidalgo the coloratura technique which she demonstrated, at the time, to Oltrabella. This, declares Oltrabella, was Callas at her best: doing what she had been trained by her teacher to do, before the conductors, stage directors, and promotors got their greedy hot little hands on her. To hear Callas at her most reliable, one has to turn one's back on Tosca, Turandot, La Gioconda, Andrea Chenier, Medea, Norma, the high-profile dramatic stuff in which Callas exploited her personality traits. Instead, have another listen to things like I Puritani, La Sonnambula, the Bolero aria from I Vespri Siciliani. Years ago, as a young accompanist, I enjoyed some conversations with a Greek mezzo-soprano, surely passed away by now, named Elena Nikolaidi, and remarked to her that listening to Callas sing the afore-mentioned Verdi Bolero sent chills along my spine. Nikolaidi said, "You are responding to her artistry. But remember this about Callas: she had everything, and she died without anything." |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 16 - 09:38 AM I just paid fifty quid to see Billy Connolly in his one-man show last Friday. There was one simple, unchanging backdrop for the whole show and his only prop was a small table for his glass of water. Hmm. As I said, big-superstar operas with celestial orchestras and conductors are not all there are and they are not the only ones capable of putting on a great show. But if it's a touring company they have considerable overheads and the venues have to be paid for. Hefty ticket prices might be unavoidable. Paying big stars five-figure sums per night might lead to elitist prices but you can still see great opera without paying 'em. Here in Cornwall or Plymouth £25-£30ish can get you into first-rate opera and ballet productions and our venues aren't exactly huge. I do get considerably peed off with "booking fees" and various other addenda to the price, however. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 25 Jan 16 - 07:06 AM I do dislike that elitist accusation. Tickets are often expensive, however, tickets to most venues, plays, pop concerts , sporting events are also very pricey these days. I was recently in NewYork and. Billy Joel ticket was considerably more than a ticket to the Met! |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Dave Hanson Date: 25 Jan 16 - 06:43 AM Opera clearly isn't rubbish, but it is elitist, it's not too long ago that the great tenor Placido Domingo cancelled a concert in England saying that the ticket prices were so expensive his real fans couldn't afford to come and hear him sing. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Will Fly Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:54 AM Just reminded myself of Jessye Norman's singing on "Four Last Songs" by listening again to "Fruhling". Beautiful - to me. It always seems a little pointless claiming that X is vile and Y is wonderful - all art speaks to an individual in an individual way and all tastes are personal, in the end. The dislike of Wagner for his anti-semitism does throw up the ever-present problem - discussed quite a lot on Mudcat - of the separation or non-separation of a creative artist from his or her personal life and beliefs. Not a question for which I have an answer, I'm afraid. I personally think Wagner was an arrogant, self-centered shit, but it doesn't stop my from enjoying the "Rienzi Overture" or the Liebestod from "Tristan und Isolde". It didn't stop me from going to Covent Garden in 1971 to see the premier of the Peter Hall production of Tristan - very controversial because of its staging and production - boos at the end by large sections of the audience. Quite a fascinating night! Solti conducting and the leads taken by Jess Thomas and Birgit Nilsson. I didn't care for all of it, thought Wagner was an arrogant, self-centered shit, but It was an interesting evening. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Airymouse Date: 25 Jan 16 - 12:20 AM Off topic: "Wagner's music is better than it sounds" was a line of the American humorist, Bill Nye. It is often attributed to Mark Twain, who liked and repeated it. Singular nouns can be used DISTRIBUTIVELY with a plural verb as in , "A number of people are going to be late to my party" and plural nouns like opera and agenda can be used used COLLECTIVELY with a singular verb. On topic. Try Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado. It's funny, has some beautiful music, and an entertaining plot. Opera combines music,drama and poetry, but for me the real lure is music. There is a stretch in Mozart's "The Marriage of Figaro" where I can't understand the words and I don't pay much attention to the plot, but song after song is of miraculous beauty. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST,hiLo Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:28 PM Steve, check out her singing of " la mamme morta" on you tube! Sublime, really. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:21 PM Her singing makes me feel uneasy, HiLo. Not because of the emotion, but because of her lack of security. Perhaps you had to be there. But I can't listen to any of her recordings. Opinion only. I know I'm in a minority! |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:05 PM I really do not know enough about opera to enjoy it. The only operas that I have experienced are ones that have been televised and I haven't been able to sit through that so going to one for me is out of the question. Although I enjoy Carmen and the odd snippets from other operas such as Madame Butterfly it isn't something that I would want to spend my money on for entertainment personally. I suppose it is a bit like ballet although the skill and talent is appreciated it isn't everyone's cup of tea. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:02 PM Yes, quite a few actually , Steve. I love the emotion of Callas. technically she is far from perfect, but she brought to her singing an emotional depth not often achieved by so called " better" singers. don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Jan 16 - 07:37 PM I heard Jessye Norman in 1977 singing the Four Last Songs by Richard Strauss. Mrs Steve once waited on her table at the Hole In The Wall in Bath in the late 60s. They had trouble finding a chair wide enough for her overly-ample bottom. I have absolutely no time for that ghastly egotistical antisemite Wagner and will not have his music in the house. In fact, I think that his overblown musical style, sadly emulated by so many composers of the late 19th and early 20th century, represented a complete dead end. Now HiLo old chap, we've reached agreement on several things in recent days, but, honestly, Callas??? I mean, did this disaster of a woman ever sing a single note in tune?? |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Jan 16 - 06:37 PM Jessye Norman is a goddess. Bite your tongue, Jack! What a veritable Who's Who of past mudcat members and reprobates are present in this old thread. And too many who are long gone. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 24 Jan 16 - 06:15 PM I have not listened to a lot of Jessye Norman, but Wagner is not kind to singers, I must admit! |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Joe_F Date: 24 Jan 16 - 06:08 PM Joe_F is a philistine too |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:54 PM I have been listening to opera for many years. I never heard one who was out of tune. I have. Jessye Norman. Singing almost anything, but Wagner brought out her tasteless worst. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:17 PM I have been listening to opera for many years. I never heard one who was out of tune.who were you listening to ? |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:08 PM I wouldn't mind if opera singers sang in tune!! |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 24 Jan 16 - 04:54 PM Good music is never rubbish. Some beautiful music has been written for operas,Mozaet andVerdi are but two examples. I don,t care what language it is in, beautiful singing is a great joy, just try Callas! Sutherland or Tibaldi for breathtaking music, or Bartoli for that matter, especially singing Vivaldi. No, it not rubbish.And Steve is right, many small,local opera companies do wonderful work ! Get out and enjoy them! |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Jan 16 - 04:28 PM There are lots of regional opera companies that put on a damn good show for modest prices. You may not get planetary superstars or the New York Phil but you'll a damn good spirited production of the kind that Gluck and Mozart might have expected. Mozart, a big snob, though the second greatest human who ever lived (after Beethoven), was dead chuffed when he noticed that the ordinary people of Vienna were humming or whistling the tunes from The Magic Flute in the streets. We've already allowed the pseudo-Christian Victorians to steal Christmas, so let's not let the big knobs nick opera. Viva Verdi! |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Jan 16 - 01:55 PM I just did a price comparison with Scottish Opera's production for next Friday (29 Jan 2016), a premiere of a new work ("The Devil Inside", words by Louise Welsh and music by Stuart MacRae) and the Celtic Connections event at the most comparable venue, the "Transatlantic Sessions". Scottish Opera: 16 pounds to 30.50 pounds. Celtic Connections: 27 pounds to 30 pounds. A fairly basic ticket to see Rangers v Falkirk the next day costs 20 pounds. I presume it would be a lot more to watch Rangers losing to a team anybody had heard of. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Jan 16 - 01:30 PM I have always loved opera myself, tho never so much as in my early teens, when I saw every production in the Sadlers Wells repertoire at successive Saturday matinées; which meant getting up at 6 to go down by Tube from Golders Green to Angel to get cheap on-the-day tickets -- oh I wasn't I ever' a dedicated young fellow in my youth! But I am surprised no-one has quoted [unless I somehow missed it] Burl Ives's story in his early memoir 'Wayfaring Stranger' of his dutiful visits to the Met Opera during his early days in NY: "One day while standing through a Wagnerian opera, the Almighty sent a ray of light through my skull, and I realised, 'This stinks'." ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: keberoxu Date: 24 Jan 16 - 12:16 PM Can we agree on one thing: that opera has been the butt of joking for lo! these many years. Some of us have heard more joking about opera than we have heard opera....not naming names. I am reminded of the one about Trovatore, a piss-take which refuses to die. Best said by Julian Budden, in his The Operas of Verdi: "How many people will claim that they have heard a performance in English in the course of which Manrico declared, sword in hand, 'Mother is roasting!'? I do not believe that such a translation exists." The full piss-take begins, 'Mother is roasting / Down in the courtyard....' The actual aria begins "Di quella pira," for those who are ignorant (I was ignorant for years -- I grew up in a house where opera was disliked). |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Dave Bryant Date: 06 May 04 - 05:15 AM People who want to knock opera always seem to say that it is too elitist because of the ticket prices. Even the prices for the very best seats (and there are many much cheaper tickets available for most productions) are paltry compared to the prices that people are willing to pay for those for some football matches and big pop concerts. Also, while I realise that it covers a whole week rather than one evening, how much does a ticket for Sidmouth cost these days ? |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Muskratpete Date: 05 May 04 - 11:11 PM Opera?!?!?! I thought the thread said "Oprah!" uffda...oh well, I can't stand to listen to either. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: fiddler Date: 05 May 04 - 03:40 AM Matching post form Ballet thread! So the upshot of this is some of us like it and some of us don't! And being good folking folkies we all respect each other persons viewpoint! OK I'm in!!! I am not so sure about some of the narrow bigoted views expressed though I can't subscribe to them. Biggotry can starts conflicts and conflicts on a large scale end in war, so I won't make any comment s about those views or those of the originator of the thread. alos the money then spent on those wars if they didn't exist can go to the arts. Hmmm....... Hugsnall (even to Jo9hn) A XX |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST Date: 03 May 04 - 01:10 PM If you want "elitist" just watch how the regulars look down their noses when you walk into a strange folk club without a guitar case. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST Date: 03 May 04 - 12:41 PM God , what a narrow pivot you lot do turn on. If all of you don't like it, it must be elitist...really, what a bore. And John from Hull really ought to grow up..it is possible to be too silly for too long. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Don Firth Date: 03 May 04 - 11:51 AM Pushing one's buttons is what it's all about, Ebbie. The music in is La Bohème is lush and gorgeous! Anyone who doesn't get a bit choked up is probably dead. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Ebbie Date: 03 May 04 - 12:41 AM Juneau, Alaska has Lyric Opera but there are several singers who are capable of grand opera. I saw La Boheme in a small theatre several years ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. 'Rodolpho', a big man with a marvelous voice, (Bill Garry) was measureably better trained and talented than the other men but he told me that he felt honored to do the play, that he had always wanted to. And of course, 'Mimi' (Kathleen Wayne) had a gorgeous voice. The music is absorbing. It's strange- I don't like having my buttons pushed but with La Boheme I didn't resist it. I'm one of the few people in the world who has seen 'Wuthering Heights' as an opera! Written in 1934, it was presented in Portland, Oregon with a stormy night sky canvas backdrop with Heathcliff's tortured face superimposed. I don't remember a single one of the songs - I do know I much preferred the book. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Shimbo Darktree Date: 02 May 04 - 12:27 PM Dear me, we do get cross, don't we! Don's right about the expenditure on killing; but we are so good at it! Having said that, why does opera (much of which is incomprehensible if you only speak English) get done in the "grand style", whereas folk gets done by the old and poverty-stricken (us!). Yes, I have been to opera - twice, I think (Mikado; Don Giovanni), many years ago, just as I have been to ballet once (Giselle). Didn't like them. Cannot understand the words or the plot of opera (can't understand some folk songs, either, because of idiomatic or ancient wording), and in ballet the scuffing of the shoes spoils the music. But if you want to go, then go. Is it rubbish? Don't know ... my younger offspring think my folk is rubbish, or at least somewhat dubious ... or maybe it's my delivery ... hmmmmm. Shimbo |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Don Firth Date: 01 May 04 - 12:38 PM Everyone knows who Beethoven was and what he did. Here's a challenge for you: without reaching for a history book or encyclopedia, name one general who was a contemporary of Beethoven. Almost everyone is familiar with music from Verdi's or Bizet's operas (whether they know it or not), but who can tell me what the political situations were in Italy and France at the time they were writing their music? I didn't think so. I'm bothered a helluva lot less by a few million dollars given to an opera company, ballet company, or symphony orchestra now and then than I am by an umpteen billion dollar annual military budget. Kings, politicians, and military men fade into the mists of history. The Arts last, for us to enjoy and be inspired by today--and on into tomorrow. Too bad we don't spend anywhere near as much on the Arts as we do making machines to kill people with. Someday, maybe the human race will evolve beyond our present primitive state. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST,Fat Lucy Date: 01 May 04 - 10:38 AM Are we bollocks |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: GUEST,Auldtimer Date: 01 May 04 - 10:06 AM So, opera and classical musisic are good? But are they worth the £100,000,000, give or take the odd million or three, that the vairious Arts Councills throught the UK have chucked at them over the last ten years? I think not. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Dave Hanson Date: 01 May 04 - 04:22 AM Fat people yodelling in slow time. eric |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Don Firth Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:45 AM Is opera rubbish? Asinine question. Is this thread rubbish? All I have to say on this subject, I have said above. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: concertina ceol Date: 30 Apr 04 - 10:11 AM Is opera rubbish - short answer "yes" Imagine if efdss had had a 10% of the money the royal opera house has had from the lottery! then we would see folk music in the media. Having said that some italian opera is ok |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: LindsayInWales Date: 30 Apr 04 - 09:30 AM I'm not a great opera fan as I get sick of all those bellowing tenors (Andrea Bocelli excepted...he's gorgeous) and I get irritated by all those females who sound like they've had a hot potato dropped down their cleavage. I do however like to listen our own Lesley Garrett, who I think has done more to bring opera to "the masses" and take the "snobbery" out of it, with her delightful "no nonsense" personality. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: el ted Date: 30 Apr 04 - 09:03 AM is divine. Oh... post no 100 by the way. |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: el ted Date: 30 Apr 04 - 09:02 AM Verdi's Otello |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: fiddler Date: 30 Apr 04 - 07:49 AM I've scanned most of the thread but not read it all! I love Opera - it combines Drama, orchestral Music and singing all on the same stage at the same time. Blaming difficult. The roles demand BIG powerful voices used correctly you cannot even play a part using amplification they are too big. How many of us could fill the Albert Hall with sound and no Amplifiers, walk off stage and still have a voice and be able to use it? Sorry - I used to get paid to direct it. Back to folk many Operas are based around folk myths and many around folk Music - Rimsky Korsakov's The Snow Maiden is one of my favorites even though the press did not like my interpretation, Teh Music is steeped in Russian Folk music and the tale is a Russian Folk Tale. Then there is Russlan and Ludmilla, Magic Flute...... Having said a bit - How many of you have been to an Opera - Many - not all will say - I've never been 'cos I don't like it just what heaps of people say about folk music and we say ........ I rest my case your honour now let the masses decide teh fate of opera assasination by Yorkshiremen and others. Should they forfiet their right to enjoy folk music as Opera lovers don't like it (although they have never experienced it). Hugs to you all Andy BTW Phantom of the Opera is an opera as is jesus Christ Superstar - Evita but to avoid the snob value they are sold as musicals - HUMPH |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:31 AM its still rubbish! |
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Subject: RE: Is Opera rubbish? From: brid widder Date: 18 Sep 03 - 01:12 PM I enjoy Gilbert & Sullivan but on the whole agree with something I once heard Sid Kipper say on the subject... "all those fantastic songs and no-one joining in.... except me" |
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