Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 05:06 PM

Correct, Guest.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 02:42 PM

Alex McAvoy played Sunny Jim 1956 -1974 in the later version of Para Handy .- The Vital Spark no connection? with The Wee Magic Stane.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 11:50 PM

Ah, thanks. Got her.

No, I don't think she was there by 1958 when I left the area; by when Jenny was still just a listener in the main. A claim to fame I can make, I recall, is seeing this girl sitting alone & listening for two or three evenings running, & my catching her eye and taking it on myself to say on behalf of the "floorsingers & singers' friends and groupies" group, as it were, "You look lonely, why not come & join us?". So she moved over to sit with Gordon Potts and me and one or two others, and we asked her name and she said "Jenny Barton".

Funny thing, memory. Give it a tickle and what comes flooding back!

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 05:07 PM

Page 2 #8. She was known as Big Anthea, quite a tall lady. Jenny said they ran the Troubadout together.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 05:02 PM

There are two pages of pictures. One picture shows the audience and she is named.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 04:34 PM

No, I think she was after my time. Which is her picture? ~~ couldn't find her named in any caption.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 04:15 PM

You're quite right, it isn't there! It was not posted but I was just looking at it recently which made me think it was part of the group she gave the Farina site. Did you know Anthea Joseph whose picture is ther?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 03:12 PM

Yes, I was in touch with Jenny in NI - forget how many years ago, or what about. Still there, is she? Couldn't find that pic of her on the Troubadour Photos section of the Farina website. Where is it?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM

It was 1960 before I went there but I remember Mike well, I think he was Canadian but eventually went to Yugoslavia. I was in touch with Jenny recently and she loves in Northern Ireland. She ran it with Anthea Joseph who unfortunately is no longer with us. There is a picture of Jenny (and Anthea) on the website I mentioned recently.
I almost bought the Troubadour once, in the late sixties, early seventies I think.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 11:30 AM

I got married in March 1959, and moved to Hampstead & then to Cambridge, so I don't think I went to the Troub after that. But I wonder if our paths ever crossed, Jim ~~ did you go in the late 50s rather than early-60s? I remember the owner, Mike von Something-or-other, as rather a tetchy, short-tempered fellow. Do you remember him at all? Jenny Barton, later Jenny Robinson, who went on to be a folk agent/impresario, was another regular there in my time. I never greatly cared for Redd & Martin; always felt them on the verge of starting a fight ~~ & I believe their doing so was not unknown, tho not at the Troubadour I think. But I must say that Martin's is one of the best tracks on Peter Bellamy's The Transports from all those years later.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 11:21 AM

Oh dear. Well, Robin of course knew Johnny and Morris and who wrote what so well, and would never have intended a misattribution, but sometimes our brains and mouths can get and stay out of sync - as in this case?
I just last week had to state on a discussion list that I had for over 50 years miscomprehended the sense of a line in Morris's 'Superintendent Barret' song of the Stane. Looks like Robin got stuck on repeatedly doing an introduction without listening to himself.
Can happen.
Ewan McVicar

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 11:12 AM

I knew the Troubadour well. I met my wife there in 1960. You can see many of her pictures taken inside the Troubadour. The Richar Farina site has a page on the Troubadour and features some of her photographs.. Alison Chapman McLean.
Years later I produced and recorded an LP from the troubadour featuring Martin Winsor and Redd Sullivan.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 10:49 AM

& I can't just hear him: I can see him: sitting on that windowsill which was the singer's spot in the Troubadour cellar.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 10:41 AM

Well, Jim; I can only remember what I can remember. I was 25 at the time. I am 80 now. I can just 'hear' Robin saying the words,

'When they took the Stone of Scone, or the Destiny Stone, a Glasgow schoolmaster called Thurso Berwick wrote this song: [plays intro] "Oh the Dean o' Westminster was a powerful man..."'



... ringing in my head at this moment.

Wrong number, I suppose! LoL

I never heard him, I will swear, mention the name of this McEvoy fellow.


~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 10:25 AM

MtheGM as you say, the "ambiguous" line Morris was responsible for many of the songs written around the time ..... He didn't say Morris wrote the song. I said before that Morris wrote a few songs about the Stane and there are no credits in the wee book (still in my possession) but I discussed all the songs with Morris then (1958 or so). I have written for, produced and recorded both Robin and Jimmie, singly and together and knew both of them from about the same time. There is just no way that Robin would credit Morris with the song. Maybe you were confused with some of his 'ambiguous' sayings. I will email Morris's wife, Marion, to see what her take on the subject is.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 09:19 AM

i.e. singing AT THE TROUBADOUR, of course

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 09:18 AM

... &, I must add, in conversation too. You perhaps don't realise how well I knew Robin at the time. I lived in the Harrington Hall Hotel, Harrington Gardens, of which my mother was resident director; whence I would walk most evenings down Bina Gardens to the Old Brompton Road, where either Sandy Paton or Robin would probably be singing. Many a night whichever it was felt tired after the gig and would walk back with me to crash out on the sofa in my room, staying for a hotel breakfast next morning. I say again: Robin always attributed that song to TB/MB ~~ but ALWAYS!

Trust me ~~ in this one particular I do know whereof I speak. Robin is dead, of course; so alas we can't ask him to confirm at this time of day...

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 08:51 AM

Sorry, Jim. But nor being nasty in resisting your impugning my memory. I happen to have a very good and accurate memory, & I would take my oath in any court on any referent you could name that I heard Robin attribute that song to Thurso Berwick, not once, but again and again and again and again...

Note also the somewhat ambiguous last sentence of this sleeve note by Robin & Jimmie to their Glasgow Street Songs album ~~

Sky High Joe
Shortly after the coronation of Elizabeth II of England (1st of Scotland), the calm dignity of Edinburgh was temporarily shaken by a series of minor explosions. Gelignite was the means used" by one young man to erase the Historical inaccuracy of the gold painted "EIIR" on Edinburgh's shiny new coronation pillar boxes.
"Sky High Joe" is a collected version of two songs written by Thurso Berwick, a Glasgow schoolteacher whom we (and many other young singers) have to thank for stimulating our early interest in Scottish Folksongs. Thurso Berwick is a poet and song writer who was responsible for many of the songs written around the time of the removal of the "Wee Magic Stane".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 07:55 AM

I think the SRSM page must be the only inaccurate citing one can find and for that I apologise, in the spirit of the new year. Robin Hall, however, would never publicly give Morris credit. He was too close to Morris and myself to make such a blatant falsification. I think he and Jimmie McGregor actually recorded the song in1959 and Norman Buchanan wrote the sleeve notes and, as been already posted, Norman gave Johnnie full credits in his wee red book published 1962 (he gave me a copy).
PS SRSM have promised to correct their page.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 07:07 AM

...and I can't say I think you are being particularly 'nice' in refusing to acknowledge or respond to the fact...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 07:01 AM

HNY to you too, of course, Jim.

Maybe the old ulcer is kicking in again. But no need to act quite so wounded: in terms of the usual sort of 'Cat discourse, I can't say I feel myself particularly 'nasty'. I avoid obscenity like the plague, unlike most on here; and merely endeavour always to operate within what I regard as the sacred principle that accuracy matters. Your 'never credited' statement was inaccurate, Jim, slice it as you may. & I don't feel I am being particularly 'nasty' in pointing this out, in the interests of accuracy, yet again.

That was all.

Best regards

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 06:45 AM

God, who rattled tour cage? I've noticed over a couple of recent posts that you seem to respond to posts you disagree with in a really nasty manner. Friendly posts are welcome but stop being so nasty.
Happy New Year.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 06:34 AM

"I was involved with writing songs with Morris just after Sangs o' the Stane came out and can give a 100%guarantee that John McEvoy was the author."

I repeat ~~ I AM NOT SAYING HE WASN'T; merely demonstrating the falseness and fallibility of your outright assertion that

"Morris Blythman AKA Thurso Berwick was never credited as the writer of The Wee Magic Stane."

You said it! Just like that! Tout court! I have incontovertibly demonstrated that he was, and that your cocksure, dogmatic, arrogant assertion was inaccurate and untrue.

NOW WITHDRAW IT, please, Jim! if you aspire to retain any credibility in the matter.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 05:51 AM

I take all the above points; but, however untrustworthy Jim may regard google, and infallible Anne may think Norman Buchan, I was merely responding to Jim's assertion that

"Morris Blythman AKA Thurso Berwick was never credited..."

which, say what you will, I have demonstrated to have been inaccurate.

Yes he was, by at least the compilers of SRSM Songs; and frequently and publicly by Robin Hall in the late 50s ~~ surely someone else must recall his singing it with that attribution?

& obviously they will not have been the only ones.

?????

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 05:11 AM

Sorry, had forgotten how to do a blue clicky.
Wee Magic Stane

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 05:07 AM

PS look here.
http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/ScotLit/ASLS/SWE/TBI/TBIIssue9/McCulloch.pdf

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 05:03 AM

I wouldn't believe Google all the time.. Ignorance of the facts doesn't make a statement correct. I was involved with writing songs with Morris just after Sangs o' the Stane came out and can give a 100%guarantee that John McEvoy was the author.
No doubt whatsoever.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 04:37 AM

MtheGM -- I have to say that I'll take Norman Buchan's word for it any day.

In '101 Scottish Songs' (aka The Little Red Song Book), Norman attributes the song to John McEvoy and the notes at the back say "When the Stone of Destiny was removed on Christmas Day, 1951, from Westminster Abbey it seemed for a time as if all Scotland was busy writing songs about the incident.Some of these songs were pulled together in a small publication called 'Sangs o the Stane'(Scottish Secretariat). Of them all it is 'The Wee Magic Stane', written by Johnnie McEvoy - sic! - which has passed most quickly into popular currency."
101 was published in 1962.

Quite apart from anything else, Norman and Morris Blythman were very close friends and had stood as best men for each other when they both married, so there is no chance IMHO that Norman would either have been unaware of Morris' authorship had he actually written the song, or would have wilfully attributed the authorship elsewhere.
In my experience, Norman was always very concerned that people were properly recognised for their contribution.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 03:13 AM

SRSM Songs - The Wee Magic Stane
‪http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/Pages/SRS...‬
The Wee Magic Stane is a classic Scottish folk song that was written by Morris Blythman
.,,.
Scots For Independence [songbook]: The Wee Magic Stane ...
‪‬
The Wee Magic Stane. A song written by folk-singer Johnny McEvoy
.,,.,.

Both from Google index.

Still seems a somewhat controversial question, eh Jim?

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 09:29 PM

Morris Blythman AKA Thurso Berwick was never credited as the writer of The Wee Magic Stane. Morris did write a couple of songs relating to the retrieval of the Stone of Destiny e.g. Superintendent Barratt, tune Barbara Allan and Robin knew that Morris was not the writer. John McEvaoy did indeed go to Canada and is not the Irish singer of similar name.
I still have the original booklet with all the Sangs o' the Stane which has no credits so this may have caused the confusion.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 04:51 PM

I bought my copy of the Top Rank EP which features the song, in the Barras Market in Glasgow.

If I remember correctly it was banned on the wireless and was sold in a brown paper bag...Everybody was singing it at the time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 03:55 PM

If McEvoy was indeed 'the writer'. Blythman/Berwick was certainly so regarded at the time of the song's origin with the stealing of the Stone Of Scone in 1950. It was between 1955 & 1958 [when Sandy Paton was in London & Robin & I were a regular part of his circle] that Robin was singing it at the Princess Louise, The Troubadour, The Enterprise &c.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Megan L
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 03:46 PM

Found this article about the writer it starts after the gypsy letter John McEvoy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: Megan L
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 03:38 PM

In the 1959 - 1974 series of the Vital Spark Angus Lennie played Sunny Jim the cabin boy, Roddy McMillan was Para Handy the Skipper John grieve was Dan McPhail the engineer and Walter Carr played Douggie the mate.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 03:34 PM

Sandy Paton [see above lang syne - 22 aug 03] learnt it from Robin Hall, a Glaswegian, who claimed to know its author, Morris Blythman aka Thurso Berwick. In case any benighted person misses the point of his pseudonym, Thurso & Berwick are two Scottish towns, the first in the far north & the other right down south on the English border.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: GUEST,Fokeman
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 02:55 PM

Thanks for that answer, so we are safe in assuming it was not the later Irish Johnny McEvoy. In the later tales of Para Handy with Gregor Fisher in the starring role it was Phil Cunningham who played all the accordion music in the background. Is there anything he's not involved with?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 06:28 PM

My "wee red book" (101 Scotthish Songs Ed.Norman Buchan) from which we used to belt out "the wee magic stane" in the music lessons at secondary school in the early sixties spells the writers name as Johnnie Mc Evoy . One Singer One Song book says that he went off to Canada in the late 1950.s and the tune "Villikins And His Dinah" I vaguely remember an actor of the same name in the origional Para Handy television show who played the concertina as part of his role as the ships boy. But I am not sure if the two are the same person.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Wee Magic Stane
From: GUEST,Fokeman
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 05:57 PM

Can I wake this thread up again. This song was written supposedly by someone called John McAvoy pre-1959.
Johnny McEvoy started recording about 10 years later at a very young age so I'm willing to bet it was nothing to do with him, a young irishman. Am I right?
Who then was the real composer of "The Wee Magic Stane" if it is not Trad. and/or who was John McAvoy?

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:20 PM

Hello Dickmac, I'll see you at the Irvine Marina on Tuesdays and the Redburn on Wednesday.

Guess who?

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: Dickmac
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 02:42 PM

Thanks Jim
At least somebody has read addition

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 04:34 AM

A great addition, Dickmac, I'm sure John McEvoy would approve!

Subject: Lyr Add: WEE MAGIC STANE (additional lyrics)
From: Dickmac
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 07:08 PM

In the run up to the 1996 General Election John Major decided to return the stone to Scotland - I wonder why?

As a result I felt the story had to be updated and added a few lines to the original

That part of the story is over and done
For the stone was returned in 1951
But some folk will tell you that it looked at bit queer
But that's no' surprising for the real yin stayed here

Mair than 40 years later in the year '96
The P.M. John Major was up to his tricks
"The election is coming, I might no' get in
I'll gie the Scoots back their stane
And it might save my skin"

So arrangements were made for the stane to come back
The Army would guard it to stop an attack
Butis wisnae tae go to the Palace in Scone
But instead to the castle in Edinburgh toon

The stane now it sits in its new resting place
Beside the Scot's crown,the sceptre and mace
But one thing about it that isnae sae guid
If you want to go see it it will cost you five quid

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: Little Robyn
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 06:37 AM

One of the lookouts who kept watch while the stone was being removed, was a young Scottish lad named Farquharson (Vic) Sommerville. He later brought his family out to New Zealand and I was working alongside him in the early 70s. I tried to find out what happened to the real stone but he wouldn't tell me.
Sadly, Vic and another friend from work were washed down a swollen river (Roaring Meg) while tramping at Otaki Forks about 29 years ago.
Vic was 32 at the time - he would have been in his early 60s now.

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 04:49 AM

I got my copy from Morris, about 1960 I think. It has silvery blue covers. I'll see what I can do about making them available. I have just typed the whole of Sacco's Last Letter to His Son for another thread so I need a rest!

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 05:45 PM

Jim, is that the one put together by Morris Blythman? I think I've seen it. It might be interesting to have all lyrics available in the forum, but in your own time!

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 03 - 09:31 AM

Best version THe Reivers....Off their Top Rank EP
Also on this EP is the "Billiard Hall song",on the EP called "Govan is a busy place".This song is featured on another current thread.
    Ake

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 07:56 PM

SANDY PATON did a fine job o' singing this one on his very first LP on Elektra Records. Called THE MANY SIDES OF SANDY PATON, it is a classic of the era-----circa 1958--'59.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 02:09 PM

Hi all, I have a booklet called Sangs o' the Stane, published by the Scottish National Congress, priced 6d. It has 15 entries, mostly songs to traditional tunes but the opening piece is a poem. If you're interested, Susanne, I could try and scan them.
Jim Mclean.
#1 A poem On the Asportation of the Scone Stone, #2 Coronach for the Dean of Westminster, #3 Leezie Lindsay 1950, #4 For Kin and Country, #5 Ballad o the rievin o the stane, #6 Superintendent Thomas Barratt, #7 Requiem ll, #8 Slainte Destinie-o, #9 Stane Sang, #10 The Stanes's Awa, #11 The Scottish Volunteers, #12 Det Inspector Owen McGrath,
#13 The Wee Magic Stane, #14 Hae a Mindin O't.
Cheers,
Jim

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 07:48 PM

Hi Susanne, Ians parents owned a house next door to me in Strachur Argyll.Ian came down to stay with them quite often to escape from domestic problems ..and dry out ...he liked agood bevvy.
Your quite right, he was a bit of a misogynist,but in a tongue in cheek way,like most Scots!!!!He didnt talk much about his great adventure (I felt he was a bit embarrassed about the episode)
Being a leawyer he had a wierd sense of humour right enough,but I liked him, although he seemed to have turned into a right Tory.
Of course all the Nats at that time were "Tartan Tories".
AS a man,to me he was a bit disapointing. ....A relic of a bygone age...Ake
I think, to Ian ,the removal of the stone was more of a student prank than a political statement...

Subject: RE: stone of destiny lyrics
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 07:04 PM

Ake - did you get to know Ian Hamilton? What was he like? From his books he comes across as seriously (and increasingly) weird! I didn't buy the second one 'cause it seemed to indicate a rather mysogynist mindset to me, but I've included some of his writings in the info on The Wee Magic Stane.