Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 12:55 AM

I don't know about the Sealed Knot, but I've beento reenactments at St. Marye's Citye, where The Maryland Dove sails out into the bay. There's one next month. It's worth seeing.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Cattail
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 07:21 PM

Hi all!

What a good thread, really makes one think doesn't it?

Hows about if he drilled several small holes in a circle, and then
levered the resultant circle out? This would get us away from the
argument of amount of work, leverage, torque etc required to do the
job as it would be much easier to turn a small auger than a large
one and could result in a rather large hole in a ships side.

Also, using a standard type of carpenters brace with a large nail
hammered into the hull *might* give enough leverage, if you held
the nail with one hand, and turned the brace with the other whilst
it was being held between your side or chest and the hull.

Incidentally I work at a place where they are still making 10' gates,
window frames etc, out of oak. the timber used in the gates usually
has some quite good cracks in it (or cracks later) which could make
a good start for an auger.

Another thought, these ships were quite high out of the water, and
were also round hulled (as against hard chine), so that even a small amount of water in them could possibly cause a capsize, given that it all went to one side of the vessel.

All supposition of course but.......

cheers for now.

Cattail !

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 07:11 PM

I hear ya, Capn. Maybe these guys never scrubbed a hull from underneath?

A

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 07:08 PM

Sigh. I give up.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Gareth
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:56 PM

Hmmm ! - refer to C S Forester - "Hornblower in the West Indies"

The capture of the Slaver "Estrela de Sud" (SP) was effected by the fastening of a drough (Sea Anchor) to the rudder by a swimmer whilst moored in a Spanish Harbour on the Main. An Auger was involved in the planning.

Fiction follows Folk, or Folk follows Fiction ???

BTW Forester was recognised as a reasonably accurate Naval Historian.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:36 PM

Even if the alleged Elizabethan swimmers were not expecting to actually sink the ships, they'd still have had to be able to drill the holes, so if it's true they existed, it must be possible to do that much.

And once the first hole is even partially drilled, that provides somewhere to insert a pivot you could use to enable you to turn the auger in the next hole.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:24 PM

In many of the versions it is explicitly stated that the auger was a special tool -- it was fitted for the use, it bored three or nine holes at once, etc. This suggests that at least some of the contributors to this song were aware that no ordinary auger would do the job. That a cabin boy would happen to have such a specialized weapon (presumably invented by himself) is implausible, but so is a lot of this story. I envision a sort of box with however many auger bits geared together, fastened to the hull with lag screws, driven with a large crank, and provided with a handle to hold on to while cranking it. All this, of course, while holding one's breath.

As a couple of people way back in this thread pointed out, many modern auger bits (and so, perhaps, this one, if the cabin boy was that clever) have a tapered screw on the front, which, if it holds, will drive the auger forward if you can just manage to rotate it.

I, too, had always imagined that the holes were somewhere that was hard to get at from the inside -- even once the crew were distracted from their games.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 05:52 PM

The two vessels would be about the same general scheme, anyway. Skip, how do you address the leverage problem to make the holes in the first place?

A

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Reiver 2
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 05:21 PM

One bit of clarification: I keep seeing references to the sinking of the Golden Vanity. In the version I'm familiar with (I haven't taken the time to look at all the others) the Golden Vanity is the ship of the "lovely Captain" and the luckless cabin boy. The ship that he sinks (even though I think the sinking as described wouldn't have been possible) is identified only as "the Spanish enemy" -- a ship that is not given a name. (Oh, yes, it could have had the name "Spanish Enemy", but that hardly seems a likely name for a ship -- especially if the Golden Vanity is an English ship -- the song is English, right? -- and if the event was around the time of the Spanish Armada, eh?) BTW in the version I have, there is no mention of a battle going on -- only that they "feared she might be taken". I always envisioned that the event in the song took place at night, or in a dense fog with the ships becalmed -- the "lovely Captain" aware of the nearness of the enemy ship, which was not aware of the Golden Vanity's presence, but would notice the becalmed ship and "take her" when daylight returned or the fog lifted. Always fun to open a few new cans of worms.

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 04:44 PM

I know it's thread creep, but I've sunk a few fishing vessels by merely looking at them cross eyed. There are some boat owners who purchase and then use boats 'til they sink.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST,Skip Henderson
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 01:42 PM

Yes Aloysis, you can really sink a ship or boat "with a brace and auger" as one version of the Golden Vanity goes; particularly if you were to drill holes at or below the waterline behind the interior lining of the hull of a wooden ship called longitudinal stringer,or the ceiling or foot planking. Said lining would make it nearly impossible to get at the leak from inside the hull and after a certain time the inside water level would preclude any other course than to abandon ship. I have also personal knowledge of a cabin cruiser sunk by a disgruntled partner with a .45 cal. automatic, but that's another yarn.
Cheers,
Skip

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 01:35 PM

There is one MAJOR assumption which may be unfounded: the cabin boy bored the holes from the outside of the ship.

There is some indication that he might have done it from the inside.
"While some of them were playing cards and some were shaking dice
He saw their dark eyes glitter as the water it rolled in," from one version. I've also seen versions that seem to indicate he got BACK into the water to swim back ("then down upon his breast").

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 01:05 PM

Well, Kendall, some of those old vessels had low strakes along the hull, eh? Mebbe he could tuck up under one of those and leverage his position enough to bore holes three, or however many. But it isn't bloody likely.

A

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 12:37 PM

...It's not a matter of where it grips it!!!

Look, it would be impossible to get the leverage needed to START the auger as has been pointed out, there is nothing to brace yourself, no way to apply the necessary pressure. It's one of those things that look good on paper, but fall through in practice.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Nerd
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 12:22 PM

Cattail,

the problem with your analysis is that if a boat is five times "as big as" (i.e. five times as long, and five times as wide, and five times as high as) another ship, then its volume is about 125 times as great. Thus, a ship 5 times larger in each dimension would require 125 times as much water to fill it up. So if it took a little boat five minutes it would take the larger one roughly 625 minutes, or ten and a half hours...

Add to this the fact that the shape of a ship's hull is different from that of a small boat, exactly because the ship is made for carrying large amounts of stuff around. (The ship needs to be mostly filled with heavy stuff and still have enough buoyancy to float, which requires a greater volume). So it would almost certainly be of greater volume than simply an expanded version of a 20' boat.

This of course adds another wrinkle to the tale. Another factor on which this sinkage might depend: how much heavy stuff was in the Turkish Robbery? If she was sailing high, she would have longer to go before foundering...

BTW, I still vote no on whether this is likely, but as Teribus says (and as I said in the very first response), yes on whether it is, strictly speaking, possible. IF the boy could swim there without being detected, AND he used not an augur but some other tool like a saw, AND he was extremely skillful or lucky, so that his holes had a much greater effect together than they would have had individually (eg. Teribus' "if you drill the holes to destroy the dowling holding the planks to the frames and ribs of the hull") AND he remained undetected and unfrozen and unshot (not to say undead) during this time, AND the crew was for some reason unable to pump out the water or patch the hole, THEN he might have a hope of sinking a ship in this manner.

I do not think this was a method of sinking ships in the Elizabethan era, though as Ebarnacle says, it may have been "a standard method of attack." Remember, the goal in fighting a ship is often not to sink it but to force its crew to surrender so that you can take the ship for yourself. By drilling holes you could divert the crew from fighting, and toward pumping and patching, giving yourself an easier job. Once you had subdued the crew, you could then repair the ship. But whether it was used to SINK ships? Of that I remain skeptical!

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 11:37 AM

Hi Tiberius.... problem that stikes me about springing planking, is that the water pressure holds the planks in, how many times have we all seen planks fall out of a wooden boat as soon as it is hauled, when the water pressure was the only thing holding the plank in place once the fastenings rot out? Seems that a hole is thing... Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 11:23 AM

You can use bouyancy to come up into the hull from below. I have worked cleaning hulls from below, and although it is not fun or easy, it is possible; but that is not the same amopunt of pressure needed to torque a brace into English oak. You could start the tip (if the augur had such) but then when you needed to "put your back into it" there would be nothing to lean against and you'd be slopping all over. Easy to imagine, but it would not be easy to do, at all.

A

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 11:18 AM

Teribus would appear to be correct in his critique of my remarks above, as supported by this verse below:

A Sailor's Yarn

(By J. J Roche, Circa 1890
From A Nonesense Anthology)

As narrated by the second mate to one of the marines


They bored a hole beneath her line
To let the water out,
But more and more with an awful roar,
The water in did spout...

Still, I remain concerned that if this wholistic theory for the sinking of the "Golden Vanity" holds water, it does not augur well for our naval fleet in the Persian Gulf. Perhaps, someone should warn a responsible authority. Calling Admiral Poindextor!

However, the "Golden Vanity" I'm most familar with is still safe, if not exactly sound, stored in the cellar of our barn in Maine. My parents commissioned this 12-foot skiff for myself and my brother back in the early 1950's. She did noble service as we cleared the cove of pirates, summer vacationers, and short lobsters.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 10:25 AM

Kendall,

Fair point about the augers of the period - what about the "little tool just made for the use" as the line runs in one of the versions?

The nine holes made all at once sounds more than a bit far-fetched, but the question asked was could you sink a ship by drilling nine holes in the hull - the answer to that question is yes if you drill the holes to destroy the dowling holding the planks to the frames and ribs of the hull. Lots of variables come into the equation, actual state of the vessel's hull, marine growth, pressure points along the hull, too silly for words, it might be, but impossible, it is not.

As to what can be achieved by a free swimmer on the hull of a ship at sea. I can remember reading a book about the China Clippers and some of the jury rigged repairs they managed to carry-out to hulls and rudders were quite amazing, in most cases way could not be taken off the ship as they had to maintain some sort of heading into sea.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 09:20 AM

I have foolishly loaned the book out and don't recall the title. NO, NO, not the cat...ANYTHING but the cat!!!

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 08:07 AM

You are jumping to the holes, and going from there. I still say, the augers of that era were so made that they required a lot of pressure to start them into the wood. Underwater, he could not apply any pressure at all. The whole idea is silly.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:13 AM

The nine holes the lad drilled with whatever could have been drilled to start or spring the hull planking. If that was done at the for'd end of the planks, the flow of water over the hull would assist in tearing the hull open. The ship would founder and founder quickly, if she was at action stations, the Captain of the ship would have to take men away from sailing the ship, and manning her armament to man the pumps.

Charley: "...if that cabinboy had succeeded in drilling a hole beneath the Golden Vanity's waterline, he would have been drown by the bilge water pouring out! Vile stuff, that bilge water."

If that were the case the "Golden Vanity" was already in major trouble. For the bilge water to flow out of the hull the head of water inside the hull would have to be greater than the head of water outside.

The "Royal George" sank off Portsmouth (Spithead Naval Anchorage in the Solent), not Plymouth, in 1782. She was heeled over to make repairs to hull damage, this was done by moving cannon from the starboard side to the port side of the vessel. Structural failure in severely rotten framing due to the additional weight caused the vessel to sink. She was partially salvaged in 1840 by divers using early versions of the Seibe deep diving dress and helment (the forerunner of Standard Diving Gear)

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 05:49 AM

Now, if the auger holes caused the ship to list, and she was unstable already - for any or all of the reasons above ....

Captain James Cook used fothering to save the "Endeavour" when she struck the Great Barrier Reef off the site of what is now Cooktown in 1770.

After all this - I'm bored with augers.

:-)

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 05:43 AM

Jeri - perhaps the cabin boy's tool was not so big when he was swimming - it only attained it's maximum size when he reached the enemy ship and started thinking about the captain's daughter !

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:16 PM

I can give you a reference to EBarnicle, Kev... we have had Christmas dinner (not quite on Christmas) for decades at the home of great friends, and frankly, he, as the inventor of a bottom paint for boats may be responcible for the loss of as many vessels as swimmers with augers.... (only kidding ya, Eric...) But than again his Barnacle begone (now renamed)... was the sourse of my ad... beluga begone, barracuda begone, barrier reefs begone... black sea begone, baltic sea begone, and a wake of begone destrucitons.... again only kidding Eric ol' chum... but when ya get to New York (kev), we'll hook you guys up for a sing (and a free can of boat begone... geeze Eric I can't help it... stop me please!!!! )
Larry

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 10:14 PM

Geeze Rick! I told you not to tell anyone. Here is one of my more embarassing moments being used as an historical benchmark! Oh ... the shame of it all! Bob

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:18 PM

Mmmm ! Historical note - Didn't the late Comander Crabbe have some success in this fashion, ( OK he used explosives, not an auger !)

Gareth

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:57 PM

Well, if EBarnacle's referance to a "naval history relating to the first Elizabethan era. Attack by swimmers with augers was a standard means of attack in that era" stands up, it would appear to settle that, at least in principle, drilling holes in a ship is possible.

Mind, the fact that a book says something like that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. But could we have the reference EBarnacle?

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:44 PM

IF there were three holes in the hull, AND they were in a place that couldn't be patched, a ship could be sunk. However, the problem was MAKING the holes in the first place. That would be impossible with the auger of that era.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:43 PM

I doubt it very much. I can't even imagine anybody being able to work an auger while swimming (what do you brace (as in brace & bit) against) through what was likely oak or some other hardwood, in a moving boat's hull, in the midst of a battle, enough to do some actual structural damage or a big enough leak to sink a ship which was designed to function with a hull partly full of water as ballast anyway.

But what the fuck do I know?

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Cattail
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:32 PM

Hi all,

Having read Deckman's account of his 20' boat, it got me
thinking about the relative sizes of these vessels.

The Mary Rose had a waterline length of 125', with a 38' beam, not
a small boat, but fairly small by todays standards, and only approx'
five times bigger than Deckmans craft.

If Deckman's boat went down in roughly five minutes, then the larger
vessel may only have taken half an hour to an hour to do the same.
Given that Deckman had only one three quarter inch hole to deal with
and the Vanity supposedly had a minimum of three.

So, yes it may have been possible, also taking into account the extra
weight differences between GRP and wood, and that the Vanity would
have been fitted out to a good standard and carrying cannon etc,
all making for an extremely heavy vessel with a lot of displacement.

I didn't note the draught of the Mary Rose, but the dimensions are
on the web site.

Incidentally on http://www.divernet.com I came across the headline
that said another part (the bowcastle) of the Mary Rose had been
found in the Solent, I didn't bother reading the article as I have
been getting slow connection problems lately, (it won't even let
me submit this, I've tried three times now) but a very interesting
bit of news, especially if they can raise it and match it to the
original hull they have already.

Enough of my ramblings.

Cheers to all

Cattail !

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:15 PM

Sounds like a job for the Reenactment enthusiasts. Does the Sealed Knot have a naval section?

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:07 PM

Ran across another version called "The Merry Golden Tree" by Jean Ritchie on her newly rereleased Ballads album. The boy goes for nine holes here, but the song is cut off before we learn of his fate (don't know why). You have to work hard to figure out that it is the same song from all the different titles (the other ship is called The Turkish Robbery!).

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:18 PM

I still insist that it couldn't be done for the reasons listed.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:10 PM

One also wonders how big a tool a cabin boy must have to drill a hole that size, and how he managed to swim with it.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 05:51 PM

I'm happy to report that the "Golden Vanity" is still safe if not exactly sound in the cellar of our old barn in Maine. She's a 12-foot skiff that my parents commissioned back in the 1950's. She shows evidence of rot here and there but I'm sure some intripid soul could restore her, and learn something in the process.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 05:18 PM

It reminds me of the time I launched my first boat, an old Star class. I had neglected to allow the planks to swell before putting her in. The boat went directly to the bottom of the slip which, fortunately, was not too deep. The slings didn't even get off her before she filled.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:36 PM

I dunno Rick ... I'm going to vote that YES indeed, I think it was very possible! As proof positive, I'll relate a very embarrasing event in my life. Some years ago, a friend and I were launching my 20' plastic boat into the river. He was quite sure that I had put the thermos bottle sized cork into the drain hole. And I was equally sure that he had. Suffice it to say that neither of us had. Within five minutes, that silly little boat was submerged. It simply amazing how much water can come through a three quarter inch hole in no time. I've been able to keep this misshap a complete secret all these years, so please don't tell anyone! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 03:06 PM

Getting back to Music - There was a Ballad on the subject of the "Royal George" Click 'Ere

Gareth

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:32 PM

Indeed, Ted & Kevin. A half-remembered bit from a course longer ago than I care to think about. Could have sworn I read somewhere that it was an intentional sinking... ah well. Senility strikes once again.

HuwG - Royal George was indeed the one I was thinking of. I'll have to dig out which dusty old book I read about her in.

As for the Mary Rose, that was an "oops". I think the Vasa is a better example of "Hmmmm, maybe we should not do it this way." Lovely state of the art ship - huge, massive, impressive to look at and nearly as sea-worthy as a brick. The original plan was modified after her construction was well under way, to make her longer and taller. Added more cannon to the taller hull, and voila! A disaster waiting to happen!

Her first excursion out, banners flying, ports all open displaying her nice shiny new cannons, band playing and a slight gust gave her a slight heel - and she kept right on going... the too-tall upperworks (for her narrow beam) in conjunction with too tall of masts (ditto, but she sure did look good), meant that the couple of degrees pitch from the wind increased by a gust to several degrees, set the lower gun-deck awash and that was that. Kind of put a damper on the King's party that night.

I figure the captain should have stuck to polishing the handles on the big front door.

Pete

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:13 PM

as I understand it tradition dates the song to Elizabeth I....suppossedly it is about Sir Walter Raliegh.

the Ballad Index dates it back to 1685

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:10 PM

One of the alternate names of the song is: "Sir Walter Raleigh in the Lowlands of..." Whether or not it is based upon an actual incident, I do not know. I do know that the song was much bruited about and did damage to his reputation and popularity, at least for a while.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Reiver 2
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 01:56 PM

A really fascinating discussion. I've learned a lot. Thanks to everyone. I do have a few questions: Where is the evidence that the time of the event was during the period of Hank VIII or Betty I? My version says nothing about the time period other than it refers to "the Spanish enemy." (The same goes for any assumptions about how "big" that ship was?) Does the phrase "lowland sea" refer to the coast of Holland, or ?? Finally, Les from Hull makes a reference to "...the lovely Captain's daughter." How do you know the captain was so lovely? :-)

As I say, I've learned a lot, but as for the original question, I'm still satisfied with Rick's original reply (thanks, though, to Heather for suggesting a referral to the Mudcat or we'd have missed a fascinating discussion).

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:32 AM

For those who don't know understand Kevin's remark above, here is an historical account of the sinking of The White Ship, lifted from a longer article at Britannia.com:


After the successful campaign of 1119 which culminated in King Louis VI of France's defeat and humiliation at the Battle of Brémule, King Henry and his entourage were finally preparing to return to England. Henry was offered a fine vessel, the White Ship, in which to set sail for England, but the King had already made his travelling arrangements and suggested that it would be an excellent choice for his son, William.

As the rising star of the Royal Court, Prince William attracted the cream of society to surround him. He was to be accompanied by some three hundred fellow passengers: 140 knights and 18 noblewomen; his half-brother, Richard; his half-sister, Matilda the Countess of Perche; his cousins, Stephen and Matilda of Blois; the nephew of the German Emperor Henry V; the young Earl of Chester and most of the heirs to the great estates of England and Normandy. There was a mood of celebration in the air and the Prince had wine brought aboard ship by the barrel-load to help the party go with a swing. Both passengers and crew soon became highly intoxicated: shouting abuse at one another and ejecting a group of clerics who had arrived to bless the voyage. Some passengers, including Stephen of Blois, who was ill with diarrhoea, appear to have sensed further trouble and decided to take a later craft.

The onboard revelries had delayed the White Ship's departure and it only finally set out to sea, after night had already fallen. The Prince found that most of the King's forces had already left him far behind yet, as with all young rabble-rousers, he wished to be first back home. He therefore ordered the ship's master to have his oarsmen row full-pelt and overtake the rest of the fleet. Being as drunk as the rest of them, the master complied and the ship soon began to race through the waves.

An excellent vessel though the White Ship was, sea-faring was not as safe as it is today. Many a boat was lost on the most routine of trips and people did not travel over the water unless they really had to. With a drunken crew in charge moreover, it seems that fate had marked out the White Ship for special treatment. It hit a rock in the gloom of the night and the port-side timbers cracked wide-open to reveal a gaping whole.

Prince William's quick-thinking bodyguard immediately rushed him on deck and bundled him into a small dinghy. They were away to safety even before the crew had begun to make their abortive attempts to hook the vessel off the rocks. However, back aboard ship, the Prince could hear his half-sister calling to him, begging him not to leave her to the ravages of the merciless sea. He ordered his little boat to turn round, but the situation was hopeless. As William grew nearer once more, the White Ship began to descend beneath the waves. More and more people were in the water now and they fought desperately for the safety of the Royal dinghy. The turmoil and the weight were too much. The Prince's little boat was capsized and sank without trace.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:24 AM

I was recently reading naval history relating to the first Elizabethan era. Attack by swimmers with augers was a standard means of attack in that era. It was probably carried over from earlier naval systems, when ships had fewer [if any] cannon and firearms. It is unlikely that the system would have been used or considered if it were not effective.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:43 AM

He cut gashes in the "salt water juice"????

I haven't seen or heard that version, but the cabin boy's name HAD to have been Moses!

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:38 AM

As to choice of drills. Rick beat me to the comment that an auger is too heavy to swim with, unless we are speaking of a bow drill, mostly wood and sinue, with a small mettle tip on the drill, easy to use in the water, if you find a nice nitch under the transom wedge yerself in under the rudder, drill between the planks likely butted back then, nice straight lead to drill into to, I like the reefing Iron idea as well, easier to swim with, however, the caulking would not likely be easy to get at with swelled planks, maybe you'd get some but don't forget oakum is being forced in by the presure of the water as the planks swell, better drill between the planks, and my vote is for a bow drill, Cheers, stay dry, Larry

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: HuwG
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:38 AM

Re. PeteBoom's post above, the First Rate that went down in Plymouth Harbour was the "Royal George". There is still a legend that the ship was being canted to clean the copper on one side, the gunports on the other went under and that was that. However, it is equally possible that, with all the rot and damage from marine creatures, canting the ship caused the deck beams te break away from the ribs and frames, and the effect would be the same.

Re. Grab's post on the "Mary Rose", when built she was quite well designed. Unfortunately, in the thirty years which passed between her launch and loss, the Royal Shipyards, at Henry VIII's behest added lots of cannon, which, with the necessary extra frames, raised her Centre of Gravity. Even this wasn't enough to ensure her doom, until she put to sea with a Vice-Admiral embarked. To maintain the dignity (and safety) of the said Vice-Admiral, she carried two hundred or so extra men-at-arms, bowmen and arquebusiers, all mustered on the upper deck and quarter deck. This tipped the balance between being merely unseaworthy and a menace to all who sailed in her. There was a program about this on BBC2 about a year ago.

However, as more than one poster has mentioned, the one, three or even nine holes a love-lorn cabin-boy could inflict pale into insignificance beside the damage of which a boring (that's "drilling", not "tedious") mollusc named Teredo was capable. Before coppering was introduced, they could turn a ship's timbers into Gruyere cheese over a couple of decades.

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: Schantieman
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:44 AM

Yes, Lady Jean, I've been to the Mary Rose. 'Tis chilly, innit? Summat t'do with preserving it.

Did you know that one version (in the English Book of Singing Penguins) was collected from William Bolton in Southport (home of the Bothy Folk Club)in 1906? Jez Lowe recorded it on the CD of songs from the book (I've lost my copy, malheureusement).

It's a good story, but does sound a tad unlikelyish.

Steve

Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship?
From: kendall
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 08:52 PM

In the day of that song, the screw auger had not yet been invented, and it would be impossible to get enough leverage to drill a hole with a "pod auger"under water.

Now, if had had a screw auger (the type with the worm or screw at the tip, plus plenty of time, and he was drilling holes in a ship that was sheathed inside, theoretically, he could do enough damage if he did not penetrate the sheathing. That would let the water in, and it would run into the bilges behind the inner wall and would be very hard to locate the holes.

I believe that "Fothering" was developed in the 18th century, 200 years later.

Opinion, not possible.