Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Mysha Date: 25 Sep 23 - 12:34 PM Hi, Don't know most of the versions referred to, as I tend to sing a Dutch version. But I do recall having seen a version where the auger was a special tool for being able to make TWO holes at once. It wouldn't have to be very effective where the second hole was concerned: Just as long as it created a point of stability to keep the Turk from rotating around the cabin boy. Sure, you can sink a ship: Give them your load of gold. Bye Mysha |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Richard Mellish Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:53 AM Yesterday I recalled a version of the ballad which has one resolution of the puzzle. It includes these lines: He swam until he came to the (rascal pirate's?)* side. He climbed on deck and went below: by none was he espied, And he sank them (etc) It would be easy enough to bore holes from inside, though important to avoid detection and to get out again before too much water had come in. *I forget who the enemy is in that particular version. Richard |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 27 Sep 23 - 02:38 PM I stand by my suggestion that he bored the holes from the inside. I agree that the abillity to swim was unusual at the time and may also have been in his favour. I would presume that the enemy ship would have been spotted approaching and so it was not a case of overtaking the enemy ship. Judging by the description of the enemy crew's activites they would have been waiting overnight for daylight to commence their attack. This would also help him sneak aboard. That's a lot of assumptions, but so is a lot of what is on this thread! Robin |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: EBarnacle Date: 20 Sep 23 - 12:26 PM a simpler solution would have been for the HCB to carry a reefing hook, clean out a seam or two, and get away while the getting was good. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST Date: 27 Sep 23 - 10:19 AM It did not augur well for the Golden Vanity, or the sinker of the ship. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,groovy Date: 26 Sep 23 - 01:27 PM I think you mean augers. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,RJM Date: 25 Sep 23 - 04:28 PM I am surprised that some of our expert shanty researchers, have not actually tried sinking ships witn augurs, whilst singing the song |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 27 Sep 23 - 02:38 PM I stand by my suggestion that he bored the holes from the inside. I agree that the abillity to swim was unusual at the time and may also have been in his favour. I would presume that the enemy ship would have been spotted approaching and so it was not a case of overtaking the enemy ship. Judging by the description of the enemy crew's activites they would have been waiting overnight for daylight to commence their attack. This would also help him sneak aboard. That's a lot of assumptions, but so is a lot of what is on this thread! Robin |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST Date: 27 Sep 23 - 10:19 AM It did not augur well for the Golden Vanity, or the sinker of the ship. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,groovy Date: 26 Sep 23 - 01:27 PM I think you mean augers. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,RJM Date: 25 Sep 23 - 04:28 PM I am surprised that some of our expert shanty researchers, have not actually tried sinking ships witn augurs, whilst singing the song |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Mysha Date: 25 Sep 23 - 12:34 PM Hi, Don't know most of the versions referred to, as I tend to sing a Dutch version. But I do recall having seen a version where the auger was a special tool for being able to make TWO holes at once. It wouldn't have to be very effective where the second hole was concerned: Just as long as it created a point of stability to keep the Turk from rotating around the cabin boy. Sure, you can sink a ship: Give them your load of gold. Bye Mysha |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: EBarnacle Date: 20 Sep 23 - 12:26 PM a simpler solution would have been for the HCB to carry a reefing hook, clean out a seam or two, and get away while the getting was good. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Richard Mellish Date: 20 Sep 23 - 09:53 AM Yesterday I recalled a version of the ballad which has one resolution of the puzzle. It includes these lines: He swam until he came to the (rascal pirate's?)* side. He climbed on deck and went below: by none was he espied, And he sank them (etc) It would be easy enough to bore holes from inside, though important to avoid detection and to get out again before too much water had come in. *I forget who the enemy is in that particular version. Richard |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Aug 23 - 11:05 AM Here is the promised text: When the 1700s come to the rescue |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Mrrzy Date: 09 Aug 23 - 09:22 AM What a great thread. Ties one of my favorite songs to Pillars Of The Earth, one of my favorite books... |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Aug 23 - 02:18 PM I don't know if this needs a new thread, but I'd like to post it where people can read and consider it. A modern day maritime rescue by an 18th Century merchant ship is unusual, perhaps it can spark a song? I don't know how durable the site or link are, so I'll post the whole thing later (Mudcat is crashing with longs posts today). This can be used to start a new thread if anyone wishes. When the 1700s come to the rescue |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 17 Jun 11 - 11:17 AM oops spelled that wrong arduous augering |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 17 Jun 11 - 11:15 AM I asked the DH, a great lover of history books and all things nautical, and he has a scheme involving sheep intestines loaded with black powder. The cabin boy would drill the holes, push in the lethal links, light the fuse, and whammo! But the plan hit a snag when I asked him how a fuse could burn underwater. He himself pointed out that the timbers of the ship could be 6 to 12 inches thick. That's arduous argering. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Jun 11 - 08:29 PM I have personally witnessed a little tool sink a folk club. I expect sinking a ship is roughly the same. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Phil Edwards Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM the main objection would be that when he tried to turn his auger, it would stand still while the cabin boy rotated "So he bored his little auger in the pirate ship so hated, But the auger it stuck fast, while the cabin boy rotated. Says he, if things go on like this I'll be bloody well belated Ere I sink them in the lowlands low..." Something else struck me about the song today. These pirates - Some were playing cards and some were playing dice And some were in their hammocks a-sporting with their wives Not sure how to put this, but is it even possible to... er... sport with one's loved one in a hammock? I know I wouldn't like to try it. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:23 PM "Leenia, are you serious??" Of course I'm serious. How could one sister off the other sister in all the Two Sisters ballads if the other sister could swim? |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,Kendall Date: 16 Jun 11 - 01:03 PM Most commercial fishermen to this day don't swim for that very reason. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Les from Hull Date: 16 Jun 11 - 09:27 AM I read somewhere that some sailors chose not to learn how to swim because they thought it would prolong their death if they fell overboard. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 16 Jun 11 - 09:19 AM Pip Radish (16 Jun 11 - 04:12 AM), LOL. If you are the poet, well done! Which makes me long for the legendary CHALLENGES. Why not have a folk song for topic, and the challenge would be: add or replace verses to reveal how it really happened. (Not just an alternative ending, we had that before.) ripov (15 Jun 11 - 04:53 PM) pronounced what every seasoned scholar always thinks of first. And may I defend leeneia: although in all history most ordinary country dwellers certainly could swim, many educated persons are known who could not - they thought it beneath them. This included ship captains. Keith A of Hertford (16 Jun 11 - 06:39 AM): Conservation of angular momentum was proclaimed later still, but even if the boy was malnourished, half of his effort would go to the drilling, the other half make him revolve round the auger. Same (more or less) with the "American Turtle". Modern systems have two drills revolving in opposite directions. One version in the DT has the dead boy shouting from Heaven and sinking the GV for revenge - certainly not a patriotic ending, but matching the rest of the ballad in terms of realism. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 11 - 08:07 AM On a dead man's door, you can knock forever. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jun 11 - 08:04 AM A lad resourceful enough to own and use an auger, would surely be able to make use of a rubber ring, or some such aid to buoyancy. I still think reaction was his greatest problem. Of course the law on action and reaction did not come into force until 1687. Do we have a date for the song? It could conceivably have come into force between him diving in and attempting to drill. That would explain why he was unprepared. If we could find a missing verse that mentions whether the ship recoiled when he dived.... |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,Noreen on lunch break Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:47 AM Leenia, are you serious?? Swimming has been recorded since prehistoric times; the earliest recording of swimming dates back to Stone Age paintings from around 7,000 years ago. Written references date from 2000 BC. Some of the earliest references to swimming include the Gilgamesh, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Bible, Beowulf, and other sagas. In 1578, Nikolaus Wynmann, a German professor of languages, wrote the first swimming book... from History of swimming on wikipedia Interesting thread :) |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:38 AM There was a reference somewhere higher up this thread to a ship being captured when grounded. This ocurred during the Enlish Civil war when a ship was capured by a cavalry troop at Blue Anchor in the Bristol Channel, between Watchet and Minehead. I would sugest that the cabin boy's best course of action would be to try to board the enemy ship unnoticed, creep down to the bilges and bore holes from the inside. Drilling several holes in a circle, each most of the way through and then break the whole area out and run! |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Les from Hull Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:33 AM c/f Bushnell's 'Turtle' |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jun 11 - 06:39 AM I expect it has already been said, but the main objection would be that when he tried to turn his auger, it would stand still while the cabin boy rotated. Action and reaction. He has nothing to stand or hold on to. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: jimL Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:34 AM No |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,BobL Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:28 AM Why "of course"? They didn't have swimming pools in those days, you know. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:16 AM leeneia said: I'm pretty sure that in those far-off days nobody knew how to swim What a stupid thing to say. Of course they could. You are very dim. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Phil Edwards Date: 16 Jun 11 - 04:12 AM Just spotted this old thread. I have assumed that the cabin boy also carried a wire saw, drilled two holes above the waterline and one below, in a sort of inverted triangle two or three feet across, and threaded the wire saw through each pair of holes and cut through. As it says in what's surely my favourite version of the ballad: "He took his little auger and he bored it once or twice Then he bored for a third time with that little neat device He made an inverted triangle, which you might have said looked nice And he sank them in the lowlands low. "Yes, he made an inverted triangle of holes that were so deep One in air, two in the water, on the hull that was so steep And through and through those little holes the water began to seep And he sank them in the lowlands low. "Then he sawed with his wire saw, the best that he could do He ran his saw right through the holes and sawed the hull all through It only took that boy an hour, or maybe it was two To sink them in the lowlands low. "O some were playing card games all of their own invention And some were in their hammocks doing things I will not mention But whatever they were doing, it took up their full attention While he sank them in the lowlands low." |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Tootler Date: 15 Jun 11 - 08:03 PM However implausible, it makes a good story and that's what matters, IMO. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: kendall Date: 15 Jun 11 - 07:52 PM The song The Golden Vanity is poetic license on steroids. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: ripov Date: 15 Jun 11 - 04:53 PM Might this be an allegorical galleon? Perhaps a "spanish lady" that the captain fancied, but the "cabin boy" got in first? That would explain the lad using his drill 9 times. And the captains crossness. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 15 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM 1. I'm pretty sure that in those far-off days nobody knew how to swim. Not in a quiet pond, let alone in a cold, heaving sea. 2. This ballad is a nautical version of the usual theme of the old ballads, namely, "The upper classes are no good and cannot be trusted." |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,Jimships Date: 15 Jun 11 - 06:21 AM It is a matter for physics. If the water weight gain into the hull from the hole/s exceeded the submerged and displaced volume of water of the immersed ship, than she would sink. Anything less than no and a floating condition. Slightly positive buoyancy would be normal for wooden ships. What sunk "ships of the line" was the ballast and cargo below. Usually ballast was stone or iron in some later ships and the cargo was dry or wet goods in barrels. Most of which floated. The guns were heavy and the guns generally fell about on the gin decks or out of the ship if she rolled hard for any reason. Most other ships were fishing vessels and the hold of fish would be slightly negative buoyancy and salt was typically in abundance. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: EBarnacle Date: 02 Dec 04 - 02:18 AM Oh, some were playing cards and some were playing dice And some were doing Turkish [or pirate, etc.] things which weren't very nice. The crew were obviously distracted, which allowed the HCB to sneak up on them whilst becalmed and use his miraculous tool to enhance the natural ability of planked vessels to leak into the bilges. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,GUEST, Stephen Date: 01 Dec 04 - 08:29 PM Interesting thread. I have assumed that the cabin boy also carried a wire saw, drilled two holes above the waterline and one below, in a sort of inverted triangle two or three feet across, and threaded the wire saw through each pair of holes and cut through. When the last cut was mostly done, water pressure would push the triangle of wood in, and a gaping hole would appear, sufficient to sink even a large galleon in little time if the hole wasn't found and plugged almost immediately. Of course, the cabin boy would have to be ready to swim away as soon as the wood gave way, or he'd be sucked into the sinking ship along with the rest of the water. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Les from Hull Date: 13 Jul 04 - 06:47 PM Carlos - the practice you describe lasted until the middle 1800s, rowed gunboats were part of the coast defence of most nations (at least, those with a coast). If a ship anchored with two anchors, or with what was called a spring on the anchor (basically another rope attached to a different part of the ship) the ship could turn a bit to bring guns to bear. Of course, you have to be able to anchor! |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: GUEST,Carlos Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:52 PM The date of H the 8 to E the 1 (around 1600) suggests a Spanish enemy; that is the period of the armada. The versions of the song that refer to a Turkish enemy may be later, when England's enemy was the Turkish empire, including the Barbary pirates in north Africa. The Lowland Sea is specifically off the Netherlands (Nether means "Low"). I have read that in the late 1700's the Turkish galleys would catch an English ship becalmed and get on its quarter where it cannot bring a cannon to bear and pound it all day with a bow gun. A galley is moved by oars, usually by slaves, rather than by sails. A ship in this position is in a dire strait and facing a slow death; there would be time for a boy to swim the distance and drill holes, and the desparation to try anything. Also, the galley would not be moving. The usual counter was for the ship to launch a boat and pull or push the bow around so that its broadside would bear on the galley. The galley would try to sink the boat, and if they succeeded, the ship was back in the frying pan. In any era, as long as there are cannon so that the galley can stand off, a galley has this advantage over a ship when the wind is calm. This doesn't address the basic question of whether it is possible to drill a hole or if the hole can let in enough water; but it has been my concept of how the battle took place. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: IanC Date: 16 Feb 04 - 08:30 AM I was just re-reading Demond Seward's "The Hundred Years War" and thought of this thread. Seward's account of The Battle of Sluys (1340) says (p43): "... there were even divers who tried to sink the enemy ships by boring holes in their hulls below water ..." Oddly enough, Sluys is in the Netherlands (Lowlands) and the battle was essentially between English Cogs (converted merchant ships) and Galleys, and other vessels, belonging to the French, their allies the Castillians (Spanish) and a Genoese mercenary fleet under Barbanera (Barbenoire, or "Blackbeard" to the French). Sewards sources are a number of contemporary chronicles, but mainly Froissart and Geoffrey le Baker for accounts of Sluys. The information doesn't appear to be in Froissart, though, and I don't currently have access to a full version of de Baker or any of the other contemporary chronicles: The Chroniques de London depuis L'An 44 Henri III jusque d L'An 17 Edward III Chronicon Monasterii de Melsa Adam Murimuth, Continuatio Chronicarum Chronicon de Lanercost :-) |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Joybell Date: 24 Nov 03 - 05:01 PM Would I lie? Of course not! I'm the great-great-great granddaughter of a Mermaid why would I lie about that? It's an honour not bestowed on just anyone. I'm very proud of my heritage. PS. I have a secret sea-name but I'm not telling for fear of being taken by Water Spirit. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Joybell Date: 24 Nov 03 - 04:51 PM Yes! Of course! Thanks Don. My family never threw anything out. I knew we'd find a use for it sooner or later. Come along Christmas parties. |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Nov 03 - 02:33 PM Joybell, you could always use it for big parties. A corkscrew for nine bottles at a time!!! Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Songster Bob Date: 24 Nov 03 - 12:00 PM Thing I've always wondered about in the GV story. Here the captain had a crewmember who could outswim a ship in full sail, AND operate tools whilst keeping up with the enemy ship. Now, it seems to me that that kind of swimming isn't found every day, and, though the times were different, having a super swimmer to take on exhibition would pay lots better than running a ship, and they wouldn't even be mutually exclusive! Set up the exhibitions at the ports of call of the GV, and rake in the yokels' shekels. As for the daughter and the gold, you can always make allowances -- the girl should have SOME say in whom she marries, so the poor cabin-boy gets the cold mutton there, and, yes, I've put the gold in an account till you reach your majority. It's invested, my boy! Plastics! Anyway, my tuppence on the subject. Bob Clayton |
Subject: RE: Gold.Vanity. Can you REALLY sink a ship? From: Hrothgar Date: 24 Nov 03 - 04:38 AM You wouldn't lie to us, would you, Joybell? |
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