Tech: DT for Windows - No music???

Subject: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 02:15 PM

Summary - 3 desktops. Only 1 plays the music on the windows version of the DT. 2 laptops. Only one plays etc. All have Quicktime 6.3 loaded. All apart from the laptop that doesn't play, which has Win98, are W2K machines. I have tried both the downloaded version DT and the CD version very kindly given me by Dick and Sue on their stay here in the UK. Both are Spring 2002.

I would realy like to donate the old Win98 laptop to the folk club but it would be far nicer if I could get the music to work properly!

Any ideas anyone? Any patches? Known problems with particular sound cards? ANYTHING? PLEASE!

I have written to [e-mail] on a couple of occasions but have not had a respose.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 02:32 PM

as far as I know - this is a known problem without a known cause. It seemingly effects machines at (almost) random. I had two suppossedly identical laptops - same OS, same programs, etc - one worked, one didn't.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From:
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 03:04 PM

How is the music (MIDI?) sent to the Speakers? IS it only through Quicktime?

What kind of soundcard equivalent?

We recently had a thread on no-record using the Cakewalk Music Creator software. I wonder if it is a similar problem.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 03:15 PM

Dave,

Here's an earlier thread on the problem, although it probably won't answer your question.

I did find that I could get it to run with 98 SE but not with the first release. I imagine that that was a coincidence though.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From:
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 03:19 PM

The thread you mentioned is Tech: Cakewalk

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 07:24 PM

Hmmmm - so, basicly, this program works on a random basis? OK. I know it's free. ButI have to say... It's crap. Why put out a program that has obviously not been tested? That only works on some PC's? That causes frustration amongst the people who want to use it? And that, when you ask the people who wrote it why it doesn't work, you get no answer?

Seems to me I might as well put it in the bin! Sorry to all concerned if I am causing offence but why get peoples hopes up and then dash them? What do you do for an encore? Take candy from babies?

Cheers but I will avoid your products in the future.

DtG

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From:
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:55 PM

The program has been tested. However NOT ALL WINDOWS or PCs are identical. IT happens sometimes that some Windows computers have a problem with some software.

Especially in a situation where (I think I remember this), where a program is written on Mac machines and then ported over to Windows. No one can try all Windows versions and all types of sound-card possibilities. If you work on it, you can get it sorted out.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 09:14 PM

While not exactly directly relevant to the sound problem, let me assist your understanding of the demon machines with an example

I DON'T WANT LOTS OF TECHNICAL SUGGESTIONS SUCH AS RELOAD WINDOWS! I'VE DONE IT _ALLLLLL_, SEVERAL TIMES, AND AM definitely NOT A TECHNICAL NEWBIE! But if you really _KNOW_ what is wrong I'll listen to anybody!

My Bog standard Win98 (a p133 machine with 64Mb) with MSIE V6.1 and all upgrades from the WinUpgrade site, will not let me perform internet banking or get into my public library to extend my borrowings. It also doesn't work on a few other web sites.

It fails with an error similar to
"Javascript error on Line 1 - undeclared variable" -
NO ONE can say what is wrong. (And I have lots of techie friends - even used to work as a system admin...) Even complaints (with log trails) submitted to The Banking Ombudsman just result in "hands in air, shrug shoulders" responses after the "Reload Windows" level of assistance... :-)

It really to do with the fact that the HTML code on these sites is not "standard" HTML, but has non-standard extensions that JUST DON'T WORK on my machine, but no-one can say what is wrong, even the people who wrote the code!

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 09:19 PM

Oh, BTW, my sound card died a while ago (physical burnout) and I've never bothered to try replacing it - I have enough things to worry about at the momnet...

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 04:37 AM

I know exactly what it is Foolestroupe - It's a variable that hasn't been declared in line one the Java script;-)

And yes I know, George. I am just getting more and more annoyed with products that don't work properly. Surely, in this day and age, there is no need for it. I agree that not all PC's are the same but, in this case, on 4 machines Windows IS the same! Same load, same updates, same everything. Works on 2. Doesn't on the others. And it still doesn't resolve the issue of why I get no response when I email the person suggested:-(

Thanks for the help here anyway.

DtG

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 04:49 AM

What is bugging me at the moment is the fact that so many things with sound attachments require you to have Real Audio. Real Audio is full of spyware so I uninstalled it, and I use Widows Media to play CDs. You should see my spyware detectors reactions to KaZaa!!
Giok

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 04:54 AM

Foolestroupe, I use Netscape for my online banking as it won't work with Internet Explorer.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 05:01 AM

My son downloaded Winamp to play MP3s, but it was terrible with MIDIs, so I have changed the default MIDI program back to Windows Media player and it all works fine now (W98SE).

Dorkey Chickenbrain

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 05:14 AM

Ahh Dave,

thanks, and speaking as someone who used to boast that he could at least read one Computing Language for each letter of the alphabet (almost) - I stopped counting around 30.... (languages that is!) ...

I suspect that it has something to do with the damn thing being declared on another page (that bloody CSS stuff!) that's supposed to be linked, but it DONT'T WORK MAAAAN!!!!

:-)

Say Jim, guess what? I deleted Netscape ages ago cause I was running out of HD space, and the damn code still breaks exactly the same way in Opera... :-)

BTW Jim, if you want to PM me with the bank name web site ... although I'm in Australia... it may be of use though if I just go to the bank main site and see what happens - you see on the NAB (National Australia Bank) site - there is a link (Javascript of course!) to the web page where you register any problems with the site - and guess what?

That link don't work man!

The bank help freephone number says they haven't had any complaints about the site not working!!!!!!! And the NAB site also has a (JS) link to the Australian Banking Ombudsman web page, and guess what?

Oh, they're coming to take me away, ha ha, ho ho, he he...

Say anybody else remember the wonderful
"Life gets tedious don't it" - it's in the DT!

:-)

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 05:22 AM

Ah !!!!!!

Dorkey Chickenbrain

good to see you wearing your new name with pride!


Lumpy Diaperbrains

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 04:47 AM

Aha! Thinks I. In a fit of goodwill (Good old Will...) I decided to have a last try. Amazing how you soon forget the frustrations of 24 hours ago init? Taking on board all that was on the previous thread I uninstalled the sound card and uninstalled quick time. Re-booted to re-install the sound card. Reloaded Quick time and Eureka! Lo and behold, I had sound on one of the Desktops from which there had been no previous utterance.

Filled with glee and a second mug of industrial strength coffee I decided to tackle the Win98 laptop which I want to leave at he folk club. Same procedure apart from this time I used the quicktime stand-alone installer burnt onto a CD because I have no network connection on this one. Why don't I use the network card out of the other you ask? Don't ask! Dare I just say that there is nothing like standards...

Anyhow. Guess what? It still doesn't f***ing work! Not disheartened yet though. I have found an old Win95 CD. I may give that a try tomorrow:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 09:00 AM

You see Dave,

There is a big difference between free S/W crafted by amateurs which we shouldn't expect to always work perfectly, and highly priced commercial S/W like the ***B.A.D stuff that comes from Microcr*p...


Robin


*** Broken As Designed

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: IvanB
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 02:11 PM

Do other MIDI files play on the silent computers? Have you checked to make sure that the MIDI volume isn't set to zero or muted? It doesn't matter what the main volume is set to if the MIDI volume isn't set up. By default, most Windows setups will not show the volume slider for MIDI when volume control is opened. You have to go into properties and check the appropriate box for it to show. I generally check all the boxes, set volumes to maximum (except for those devices I NEVER use) then uncheck the boxes other than main volume. That way, volume for any device can be controlled by the main volume slider.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 02:39 PM

I think perhaps part of Dave's frustration is that although the DT system does offer a contact address and I think even ask for feedback when problems occur that he hasn't recieved a reply (apparently on more than one occasion).

I did not have the sound problem using 98SE but had a more severe problem - a certain sequence - something like go to search for a song, go to the print menu, then go back to search caused a GP error and the program crashed. Before dumping the program, I took the trouble to report the error, again with no response.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 06:21 PM

Dead right, Jon. Although I am frustrated with the fact that it does not work on the laptop as well. But, the best laid plans of mice and men and all that...

Ivan, all the boxes are checked. There is no box or slider labelled MIDI. I know you probably have the best of intentions but giving misleading instructions only adds to the frustration! Thanks for trying to help anyway.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From:
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 10:35 AM

Dave, I'm glad you got one of the Desktop's working.

Sorry to hear that the laptop isn't though.

One thing I'm curious about. You say you have Windows '98 on it. Could you give us details on the laptop? Who makes it, what model, what soundcard? The specifics could be of use in diagnosing this quite often. It might trigger a memory in someone.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 11:23 AM

It's a VERY old Toshiba Satelite Pro 420CDT. The sound card is onboard and in device manager appears to be an ES688 AudioDrive.

I did load Win95 on it but that seemed to make no difference so I put 98 back. I also made sure I downloaded QT from the web, the same as on the desktop, rather than from the stand alone installer as I did before.

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From:
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 11:29 AM

Thanks Dave.

I am assuming other sound/MIDI files are processed fine on the machine. Just the Mudcat one is broken?

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 12:16 PM

The machines I have had trouble with I can't get any midi to play through QT. it *seems* to be a ST problem...

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 04:02 AM

Yip - other sounds play fine, George.

Sorry, MM, probably me boing a bit dense. What's ST?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 06:37 AM

DT does not actually play MIDI files. The tunes are stored in the old Songwright format and the software produces the score repesentation from these. The playback is achieved by sending the tune note by note to QT as separate events. This is necessary so that the pointer on the score can stay synchronised. I would guess that the part of QT being used is the web plugin rather than the stand alone media player.

I also have had problems with playback - my Win98SE PC at home only plays back with QT5, my PC here at work (XP) is quite ok with QT6, while my laptop (98SE) won't work with QT4 or 5 or 6. Another aquaintance of mine (Auntie Wend) can't get it to work either - with 98SE and QT5/6.

In the earlier thread, Mark Heiman, who wrote the software, said that he was investigating the problem. I'd like to know if he's got an answer yet.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From:
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 08:57 AM

Thanks for the update, Dave. I had thought these were MIDI files. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: IvanB
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:16 PM

When I mute my MIDI synth I get no sound from DT tune files, whereas they play fine with the MIDI synth sound on. My sense is that the data is being translated as MIDI events when sent to the soundcard.

I agree with the note by note concept in that no MIDI file is actually produced but MIDI by its very definition is a note by note process.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:16 AM

I didn't say that the note events weren't MIDI, I was just pointing out that the process was rather different from that of playing MIDI directly from a file - it's prabably more like hooking up a MIDI keyboard to your PC.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:18 PM

Just installed XP on one of the desktops - DT works fine on it now! Now works on all but the Win98 Laptop:-) I don't think it has enough memory for XP but it may be worth a try!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From:
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:49 PM

Good luck, Dave.

Subject: Sound Problems on the Digital Tradition
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 02:10 AM

I have to say that I had some stability problems with the Windows Digital Tradition when I ran it on Windows 98 2nd Edition. I got a new computer with Windows XP, and I've had no problems since.

I'm sorry if Digital Tradition programmer Mark Heiman hasn't responded to e-mail. Maybe we shouldn't have given his e-mail address, since he's busy with other things and not involved in the day-to-day operation of Mudcat and the DT. When people have reported problems, many of us have tried to help. This sound thing is one problem we haven't been able to solve for all people on all computers. We haven't been able to get the online MIDIs to play for everybody, either.

While we haven't solved these problems completely, we have offered a number of alternative methods for people to obtain the tunes:

• You can download the MIDI files you want from Mudcat, and play them on music software.
  
• You can get our 1999 Digital Tradition tunes in a number of formats at Yet Another Digital Tradition.
  
• You can Download the DOS Edition, which is the tried-and-true, fundamental edition of the Digital Tradition.

So, the official answer is that we are aware of the problem and we're working on it.
That's about all Mark Heiman could say about it at this point.

Same with those of you who complain that the DT does not give attribution to songwriters and sources. When the Digital Tradition started in 1988, Dick and Susan had no idea what it would become. At the time, there seemed to be no need for source and songwriter attribution, so the database started with hundreds or even thousands of unattributed songs. We have a DT Songwriter Attribution PermaThread at Mudcat, and we invite everyone to submit attribution corrections there. Susan of DT is working through the list, and many of the corrections will appear in the next edition of the Digital Tradition. More extensive corrections should be posted in the Forum, preferably in existing threads on the song in question [Put CORRECTION and the song title in the title of the message (not thread) where the correction appears].

Songs are now being harvested from the Forum on a new system. For now, Jeff and I are the only ones who can see the harvesting tags for this new system - but please be assured that we're harvesting songs at a pretty fast rate. Still, it takes a long time from harvest to edit to inclusion in the Digital Tradition. Also, note that although we may post 33 versions of "Flying Purple People Eater" in the Forum, Dick and Susan will not accept all songs, or all versions of all songs, for inclusion in the Digital Tradition.

Remember that Mudcat and the Digital Tradition are volunteer efforts, and our volunteers are people who live rather full lives doing all sorts of things other than Mudcat and DT. Try to be nice to them.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 07:25 PM

For some reason, my OS-WIN95 (I kNOW it's a dinosaur!) has decided QuickTime is the default for every midi and I cannot get it to work at all. When I try QT, I get a box that says I need to get an update, which I say okay to, then it tells me that failed. I have tried to uninstall QT, but it says a component of it is in "memory" and to shut down Windows and try again, which I've done to no avail. I also cannot get the updated version because I don't have WIN98. I clicked on QT's page where it said I could find an older version download but that page was obsolete...in the tech help section!

It used to be every midi I played came through fine on my Real Player. Has Mudcat gone exclusively to QT or what?

Thanks!

kat

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 08:21 PM

Kat, in Explorer go to Folder Options, File Types, find the ".MID" file extension, and change the program to what you want instead of QT. Unfortunately in Win95 it ain't too friendly so you do need to know where the alternative program (eg. Media Player or WinAmp) lives.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 10:26 PM

Graham, thanks, but in Explorer, I went to Tools > Internet Options, but didn't see File Types and nothing to indicate a choice of either QT or RA. Is there somewhere else I should be looking? Thanks a bunch,

kat

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 10:53 PM

to really SEE and control the way the programs are associated on a PC, it is easiest to use an application designed to just that.

there are several...try this one ...it allows you to pick EXACTLY which program YOU want to do each job...

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 11:07 PM

oh...and in response to the Real Audio problem mentioned last month...it IS possible to play RA stuff without Real's hassles...get JetAudio here ...or from here (with pictures) http://www.keyscreen.com/KeyScreen(s)9/jetaudio.htm

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: AKS
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:25 AM

Kat, not the INTERNET Explorer, the WINDOWS E it is you have dig up. Win+E (win = the key with the waving window on it, between ctrl & alt) is a handy shortcut for it.

Wonder why MS had to dump the expression 'File Manager'...

AKS

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:41 PM

Thanks, AKS, but when I went in there (didn't know aout THAT key, tks!) and went through the File Opt, I didn't see anything under MIDI to change. I did delete some QT stuff in there, BUT that is still what comes up when I try to access a midi on Mudcat and elsewhere, UNLESS I manually paste in the URL in my RA.

BillD, thanks, as ever you are unending font of freeware:-). I will take a look at that. I am still not up to speed on Spybot, though!

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:34 PM

The file type will almost certainly be something like "[program name] media file". It WON'T as a rule be called MIDI. Highlight that, look at the list of file extensions. One will be MID. Open EDIT dialogue. Select MID in "default extension" dropdown. Select OPEN in Action window. Click EDIT button. Browse to find the executable you want to do the job. Select it. Click OK. Go back through all the dialogues hitting OK where required.

Works for me, but I also turn off the annoying functions in media players where possible. RA, for instance, is forbidden to open any file not in its own native formats.

Subject: RE: Tech: DT for Windows - No music???
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 12:18 AM

I will try that, thanks very much!