Setting up a cheap banjo

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:41 PM

Works well at what?

Really, the other thread hardly speaks for the serious banjo player.

Even Deering advertises their 6 string almost in a "impress your friends" type of approach.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:15 AM

I think that Joe works well too!
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 06:03 PM

Well, Martin, I hear what you say, but I think the balance of the other debate was against you on that point, and thinking of the converse Joe Stead has an intrument built for him with a banjo-type neck on a vaguely guitar/bazouki-ish body that I think sounds so much nicer than a banjo but still, because of the tuning, not like a guitar. For me that bastard (the instrument, not Joe) works well.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 10:32 PM

I read some of the other thread on the 6 string banjo.

It's just a guitar with a banjo body, made for someone who is trying to get a banjo type sound without taking the trouble to learn a new instrument.

I can't take the instrument seriously.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 10:29 PM

Hi Reggie

I suggested that to daughter's boyf but he had already tried a strap attached to one of the tension rods and he found the headstock just kept pointing at the ground!

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 09:34 AM

If I were you, I'd consider adding a strap button on the under side of the heel of the neck, like most guitars have, and not have the strap attached to the headstock. It'll keep the pressure of the weight of the banjo off the neck and help to aleviate the problem of the strings being pulled out of tune.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 07:39 PM

Hi Martin - check the other thread for a less biased position

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 03:03 PM

"Real" banjo players don't play 6 string banjos.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 06:04 AM

Sorry Martin Gibson but I don't think you've understood the position - and a couple of others likewise.

I didn't buy this instrument. Daughter's boyfriend did.

The next thing he did was take it to a shop to get it "set up". The shop put tension (not thrust, tension) into the co-ordinator rod (probably until it produced cracks in the rim). It thereby altered the neck angle until it was unplayably low. The shop will of course say it was like that when it first received it. The manufacturer will say it was all right when it left him. The shop that first sold it will say it was either the manufacturer of the person who did the setup.

I actually am a lawyer and I'd certainly not advise a client to litigate where proof of the facts is so difficult.

Also as it happens I do know a thing or two about truss rods - from guitars. It's quite rare for me not to be able to improve the action on a guitar fairly substantially, setting saddle height, nut height, and truss rod, and lightly dressing frets.

Also this is a six-string, not a 5, as some seem to have assumed.

Anyway, I had a chat with Andy Perkins who I know from years back, and who also sells "Countryman" banjos as one of his cheaper lines. He told me that the Countryman is so light that even 10s are too heavy and it should only have 9s on - and that because of the small head diameter he prefers to use Nashville tuning (see thread on Nashville tuning).

He also told me a bit about head tension, and co-ordinator rods and the tailpiece lever, and the bridge. On this machine the Phillips screw in the shoulder of the neck attaches the neck to the co-ordinator rod, and Andy likes to add a woodscrew through from the inside of the rim into the inside of the shoulder (where the dovetail joint would be on a guitar) to prevent the neck rotating around the co-ordinator rod.

So I took all the tension off the strings, and then all the tension off the co-ordinator rod, and re-set the head (skin) tension. The advice here about the skin tension and the fact that owner of machine is a drummer and used to setting drumskin tensions helped quite a bit, and it now makes a sort of snare like noise, evenly around the head.

Put (on Andy's advice) a dribble of superglue in the small cracks in the rim, and put a spot of thrust in the co-ordinator rod to push the cracks together. Neck angle looking more hopeful! Rim still oval so that seems to be a permanent feature now!

Tightened (on Andy's advice) tailpiece lever to bring strings almost to the skin (be careful of bending it, he said) then positioned bridge by measurement, treble side one mill back from twice the distance from nut to octave fret, bass side two mill, and brought instrument up to pitch. Feet of bridge not making a nasty dent any more. Fiddling with harmonics seems to indicate the octave is about right, and insofar as any banjo ever tunes it pretty much seems to tune even fret-to-fret.

Action now a bit too high, so remove a tiny bit of thrust from co-ordinator rod (superglue in cracks seems to have set and be doing job). Still too high, but the neck has a significant forward bow, so much leaning on the truss rod, and eventually it's nearly there. Any lower and I'd have to dress the first couple of frets to avoid fret rattle on open strings.

The action is now about a pound coin under the bass string at the octave (that's 3.5 mm, or 140 thou, a little over 1/8th of an inch for those using inches) which I reckon is reasonable for a banjo. There's no real effort in it with those light strings.

I quite like the sound, but three things (apart from oval head) bother me a bit. First, the G string "honks" a bit louder and ,well, sort of "honkier" than the others and I note it's an unwound "G". I might try a very light wound G and see if it gives a more balanced tone. Second these light strings are so light already that if you're used to 13s on an acoustic guitar, you tend to pull the string down tothe fretboard, rather than just enough to fret it properly, so it's really easy to pull individual notes sharp, rather like the problem you can get if you take a guitar down to open C tuning without going to heavy guage strings. Third, the rim it is easy to put a little bit of push or pull in the neck, particularly as the top end of the strap attaches to the headstock, not the other side of the rim from the tailstock, so again making things go a bit sharp or flat.

Anyway, it's a huge improvement, and I'll bully a real banjoplayer I know into trying it in a day or so and see what he thinks.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 08:41 PM

You asked about angling the bridge. Start off with the bridge straight. If the banjo's intonation is good on all strings, leave it that way. If the intonation is off, try angling the bridge slightly. If it's still off, consider changing to a compensated bridge. I don't know what's available in the UK, but here in the US Grover makes a compensated bridge that's very inexpensive. Other folks make compensated bridges that are quite pricey ($30 US - £22 UK). Too expensive a modification for a cheap instrument.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Lanfranc
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 07:46 PM

Richard

Do nothing to the instrument - if, as you say, it is new, just take the damned thing back, muttering darkly about the Sale of Goods Act and "fitness for the purpose for which it was sold" and demanding a full refund or a replacement that is not obviously knackered!

Alan

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 02:35 PM

My suggestion Richard Bridge is to try to get your money back. You were ripped off because you bought something without doing your homework first. I would strongly reccommend not fooling around with something you do not no anything about, especially things like truss rods. Try to sell it for whatever you can get for it. Go to a reputable store or on-line site like Elderly Instruments and buy something new for fairly cheap like a Deering Goodtime banjo. Take it out of the box, try to get it in tune and learn to play. Oval heads and high action, notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Jon W.
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 11:44 AM

Although the coordinating rods can be used for fine neck angle adjustments, if they are throwing the rim that far out of round, I think you need to do some coarser neck angle adjustments with shims.

Bridges come in various heights, so you can get a higher one to adjust the action, or glue shims on the bridge feet as already suggested. Bridges are pretty cheap.

As far as adjusting the distance from bridge to nut, after all else is set up properly, try this: Start with the bridge a little further from the 12th fret than the 12th fret is from the nut. Strike a harmonic at the twelfth fret on the first string, then fret the note at the same fret and listen to the difference. If the fretted note is sharper than the harmonic, move the treble side of the bridge a little farther from the nut; if flatter, move the treble side towards the nut. Repeat until the harmonic and fretted notes are the same pitch. Mark the treble position with a pencil on the head. Then do the same for the 6th string, moving the bass side of the bridge. For 5-string banjos, the bass side intonation should be set with the 4th string. The intonation of the 5th string is not as critical for most banjo players because the 5th string is rarely fretted anyway - as long is it is tuned to the correct pitch, it should be OK. But if you insist on setting that, say if you have compensated bridge, keep in mind that the 12th fret of the 5th string is really the 17th fret of the banjo.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 11:36 AM

yeah Russ and if they dont break keep on tightening them PLEASE

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 10:19 AM

The experienced 6-er I know keeps a sock in with the rod to get a better tone.

~S~

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 09:58 AM

Here's the standard advice for tightening a banjo head.

Tighten the nuts sequentially the way Geoff describes, but don't bother to tap the head. Simply tighten until the head breaks or splits. Then back all the nuts off half a turn.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 09:51 AM

I have just re-read the start of this thread. Is the banjo actually NEW. If so, and there are cracks in the pot it should be returned and the price refunded as damaged goods.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 09:36 AM

I'm afraid that I have never played with a Truss Rod banjo, so don't have much advice there.
In general, if you take the strings off a banjo, you can easily dismantle it with a socket set, a couple of spanners and a screwdriver. Some people then advocate a hacksaw and a can of petrol, but I think that goes just a bit to far!;¬)
If you do decide to dismantle, make sure you lay out the parts safely, so you can put them back in the correct position.
Quack.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 09:29 AM

Next Bit.
The gadget which raises or lowers the string height at the tail-piece near the bridge is, as you assume, to alter the pressure exerted by the strings on the bridge. Don't start tightening it up until you have the head and string height set-up.
The adjustment affects the tone and response of the banjo. If it is in its highest position, the strings are pressing less hard into the head, so produce a "lighter" sound. Tightening it will produce a "harder" tone and possibly more volume.
Quack.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 09:17 AM

Richard
The banjo head needs to be fairly tight. The plastic heads are VERY tough, so it is difficult to do them damage. If in doubt, slacken off the tension completely and start from scratch.
When I am replacing a banjo head I mark the nuts at the four compass points by clipping a clothes peg to each nut. I then tighten the four nuts (in sequence) by a quarter turn of the wrench. As I move to one nut, I shift the peg to the adjacent nut, so it is now marking the nut to turn on the NEXT circuit of the head.
To get a rough idea of how tight it is flick it with your finger nail. If you get a dull thud, the skin is too slack. If it produces a ringing tone, you are approaching the tension necessary for keeping the banjo in tune. The tension affects how the banjo responds to plucking or striking a string. If it is slacker, the bass strings will be emphasised and the treble end will be more quiet. If too tight, you will not get much bass response at all. Only you can decide where you draw your compromise point.
Once you have got your skin in place, and at the lower end of "tight", fit the bridge in place, locate the strings in the bridge and get it approximately in tune. The bridge should not sink too deeply into the head, although you should see a slight depression where the bridge makes contact. Anything depression much more than about 3/16 inch means that the skin is too slack.
I wouldn't start adjusting the neck angle until you have the drum head tension set (or if you need to get it approximately in position, use a long ruler along the fingerboard, and place the bridge in position without any tension on it. Set the angle so that the ruler passes slightly lower than the top of the bridge.)
This is getting long, so I'll put other suggestions as separate postings.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: mooman
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 08:57 AM

P.S. You will need to experiment a little starting from the point you mention (for the thinnest string) to find the bridge position that gives correct intonation. Normally offsetting to a slight angle, like a guitar, is necessary to compensate for the thicker strings.

You may not need to apply extra pressure over the bridge if you already have half an inch or more in bridge height and a properly tensioned head.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: mooman
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 08:53 AM

I think the first thing I would attempt to do would be to adjust the rod such that the pot assumes a circular shape once again. Regarding the skin tension and action.

A plastic Remo head will take quite a lot of tension and tightening it will tend to raise the action a little. It should be tightened by tightening each of the tensioners a little in a clockwise or anticlockwise manner (i.e. not "opposites" although this might seem logical at first"). The feet should not "sink" appreciably into the head. You should continue to tighthen the head until you get a nice percussive sound (a bit like a snare drum) from tapping with your fingernail. This may need a couple of trips round the tensioners adjusting a little a time. You may find that this raises the action enough to prevent the string fouling you mention.

If the neck is reasonably straight, there are then two remaining ways to raise the action, one by adjusting the pot angle in relation to the neck (if the banjo has such an adjuster) or by using a higher bridge. Frequently a tiny raising is all that is necessary and this could be achieved by gluing a thin strip of hardwood veneer under the feet of the bridge and trimming so this is the same size as the feet and therefore virtually invisible.

These are typical banjo adjustments and, not knowing the model in question, I couldn't answer some of your other questions, e.g. the role of the Philips screw.

If more elaborate work is necessary, I would suggest taking it to Andy who I have used in the past and who is excellent.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 08:33 AM

Unfortunately, guest Martin Gibson, daughter's boyfriend has already parted with his hard earned cash to buy the thing, so I need to get it playable for him. Perkins is selling a 5-string Countryman for £95, but this is the 6.
Actually, I quite like the noise - it is not too loud and not too sharp-sounding, so if I can get the action right-ish, and boyf can learn to tune it, it is not an unsuitable beginner instrument. It just needs sorting.
Accordingly can you perhaps assist with the answers to some of the questions?

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 07:52 AM

This banjo sounds like a disservice to any student.

Try to find something else.

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 07:14 AM

I know Andy Perkins, and he's quite close. In fact I've phoned him already but he's with a customer so I'll try again in about half an hour.

It's the fact that the head is already oval that worries me!

Subject: RE: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: BanjoRay
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 06:50 AM

Where are you, Richard? It sounds to me like it could do with the attention of someone who really knows how to set up a banjo, like Dave Stacey in Letchworth, Andy Perkins in Kent, or Helmut Rheingans in Eyam, Derbyshire or a few others. Music shops don't usually have the faintest idea about banjos, even if they stock them, and can do a lot of damage by thinking they do know.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: Setting up a cheap banjo
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 04:14 AM

This sort of follows on from where I started on the 6-string banjo thread, but is rather more specifically about how to set the instrument up.

Daughter's boyf has now turned up with the instrument (brand new, marked "Countryman", and with a shallow bowl back held on by four bolts to right-angle brackets on eight of the head tension bolts, comes off really easily to get at the head tension nuts) and I am trying to get it set up so he can start to learn to play it. Some idiot has "set it up" (and charged lad for it) so that you can't play the octave at all (neck angle too low so the strings foul at about fret 17), and it looks as if he has achieved this by slackening the single co-ordinator rod, with the result that the plywood body rim is now oval (I guess squashed by string tension - 11 1/4 inches across body in line with the neck, 11 1/2 from side to side) and there are slight cracks showing where the co-ordinator rod meets the body, running from the rod mountings away from the head.

I've read the links on other threads about banjo setup and oh boy do I have some questions!

The scale length is about 23 inches (58 cm). Guitar scale length is usually about 25 1/2 inch. So if it's got ultra-light strings on (top string is a 10) should it really tune to eadgbe, or as it's in effect the same length as a guitar would be if the bottom note were F sharp, should it tune to F sharp or G and then same intervals?

Next issue is the head. It's a plastic Remo. How tight should it be? I know the tension should be even all round, and I can hear when that is so, although it's a little challenging to keep adjusting the skin tension and then the co-ordinator rod, and then back again, since the skin tension affects how much the skin sinks at the foot of the bridge which in turn affects the neck angle you want, and when you put more thrust in the co-ordinator rod it affects the skin tension and the evenness of the string tension. I bet if I pulled too hard on all those little nuts I could rip the skin in half. At the moment it looks a bit slack to me in that you can really see (from the back) the corners on the little feet of the bridge digging in. Is it a good idea to put something like a lollipop stick, thin and flat with oval ends, under these feet to stop the corners holing the head skin?

How high should the bridge be? It's exactly half an inch at the moment.

Next there's a little Philips head screw in the back of the shoulder of the neck. It looks as if it ought to slide the whole neck bodily across the frame, either towards the head or away from it, but it's quite tight and I don't want to force it and wreck something. What's it do?

Should the bridge be exactly the same distance from the 12th fret as the nut is, or a little bit more to allow for end-effect as the strings angle over the bridge? Should the bridge be at a slight angle like a guitar saddle? How tight do I do up the lever thing that squashes the strings down towards the head to make extra pressure at the bridge?

If I want to take the whole thing to bits (or at least get the neck off to try to figure out why it's wrong) Am I right I just take the strings off and then undo the end-nuts on the co-ordinator rod?

Any other bright ideas?