Play Party pronunciation (Shake Them 'Simmons)

Subject: Play Party pronunciation
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 04:38 PM

There's a singing game for children "Shake Them 'Simmons Down" (circle left, circle right, etc) with a refrain, "do o, do o." I've always pronounced it "doo oh, doo oh" but I just heard an old recording of Pete Seeger where he sings "doe oh, doe oh." Having been corrected on the "Kay-ro/Cairo" (as in Egypt) I'd like to know if one is correct. NOT that I'm doubting Pete Seeger for a moment!!! Is it regional? Thank you for any input. Sheila

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 05:52 PM

Go with Seeger!! He's an authority!! :>)


A

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 06:13 PM

No, wait for Jean, she's an authority. ;-)

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 07:20 PM

If you are talking of do re mi, or open de do', it's dough. But if it's "do it, baby," it's doo.
"Shake dem 'simmons down" is a very old dance song, but I have never heard the do wah bit with it.

De raccoon up in de 'simmon tree,
Dat 'possum on de groun',
De 'possum say to de raccoon: "Suh!"
Please shake dem 'simmons down."

De raccoon say to de 'possum: "Suh!"
As he grin from down below,
"If you wants dese good 'simmons, man,
Jes clam up whar dey grow."

Thomas Talley, Negro Folk Rhymes, 1922 (1991), notes by C. K. Wolfe.

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 12 Sep 03 - 07:50 PM

On the recording, Pete Seeger sings it with a long o, rhyming with low, sew, mo, or the other vagaries of English. Thank you, Sheila

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 02:36 AM

Here are versions from B.A. Botkin, The American Play Party Song (Ungar, 1937, 1963, pp. 295-6), but not with a refrain.

                      POSSUM UP A 'SIMMON TREE

    Based on Negro songs of folk and minstrel origin.
    For A, cf. "Brudder Eph'em," Bass, JAFL, 44:430; "Cotton Field Song," Lomax (American Ballads and Folk Songs), p. 241; "Old Bob Ridley," The Negro Forget-Me-Not-Songster, pp. 155-157; Perrow (Eastern Northern Carolina, Mississippi), JAFL, 26:131-132 (two texts); "Karo Song," "Raccoon Up in de 'Simmon Tree," Scarborough, pp. 170, 172, 173; "Shake the Persimmons Down," Talley, pp. 34-35; White (Alabama), pp. 138, 236-27 (four texts).
    For B, cf. "Shady Grove," Combs (Kentucky, Folk-Say: 1930), p. 242; "Little Gal at Our House," Lomax (American Ballads and Folk Songs), p. 238; Perrow, loc. cit.; Scarborough, p. 177; "Possum up a Gum-Stump," Shearin and Combs (Kentucky), p. 38 (listed); "Possum uo the Gum Stump," Talley, p. 3; White (Alabama), pp. 237, 238, 239 (four texts).

                      A
(Sung by Orville Nicholas, Mountain Park, Kiowa County, from Cordell, Washita County.)

X:1
T:
M:2/4
L:1/8
K:F
A c c3/2 c/|A G F F/ F/|A c c3/2 c/|A3 G/ G/|
w:Pos-sum up a 'sim-mon tree, An' a rac-coon on the ground. An' the
A c c3/2 c/|(3AGG F F/ F/|A A G/ G3/2|F8|]
w: pos-sum said, "You son of a gun, Won't you shake them 'sim-mons down?"

                      B
                  OLD RACCOON
(Lois F. Beckham, Norman, Cleveland County, who played it at Memphis, Tennessee.)

Ol' possum in a gum stump,
Coonie in the holler,
Pretty girl at our house,
As far as she can waller.

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 01:36 AM

Sheila,

does Pete ever say where he learned the song? If he learned it from a book, he may have just made the pronunciation up. If he got it from a singer, one of us might have access to a recording of that singer.

Also, I'm not sure you have the same problem as with Cairo, because Cairo is a real place while do-o seems like a nonsense refrain,   So it may be as inconsequential as wondering whether to sing "diddle-ollie-day" or "doodle-ollie-day."

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:47 PM

I heard this on a Folkways Record (FC 7604)1959, entitled "American Play Parties". It is sung, unaccompanied, by Pete Seeger, Mika Seeger and Rev. Larry Eisenberg. I don't know the last two.
Nerd, your thoughts are so well-taken, I believe your screen name does not do you justice. Thank you. By the way, I saw these words before I heard them, so assumed that "do o" was pronounced as in the wedding vows, "I do." Sheila

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:48 PM

Sorry, I'm that last guest.

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation (Shake Them 'Simmons)
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 03:59 PM

When I played the game as a youngun, it began with a do-si-do movement: Round your partner, do, do (long O)
          Round your partner, do, do
          Round your partner, do, do
          Shake them simmons down. (using a walking step, keep facing center and move clockwise round your partner,twice- partner on left beginning by moving in front of partner on right)

    then: Round your corner, do, do (etc).

After that, the other verses indicated various movements, as, "All to the center," or whatever, but the "do, do" refrain is constant throughout. Some of the tots were singing, "go-go," which also made sense. Sometimes we'd make up different movements for the verses- this is a good game for that sort of creativity.

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation (Shake Them 'Simmons)
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 04:30 PM

Jean, is it true that "play party" dancing was used so that Baptists could dance? ;-)

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation (Shake Them 'Simmons)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 05:24 PM

Lan' sakes alive, you lumpin' all Baptists together? Most of 'em are jes' as sinful as Methodists.

For adults, the term has taken on new meanings: Play Party

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation (Shake Them 'Simmons)
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 08:15 PM

A joke.......from a Methodist married to a Baptist...

a line from the movie, A River Runs Through It:

A Methodist is just a Baptist who can read.

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation (Shake Them 'Simmons)
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 03:01 PM

The only church we had for many years was the Old Regular Baptists, and they were strict! When Mom was a girl (late 1800s)she had to tell her mom, "I'm going to the plays tonight," careful not to use the word, "dance..." It was just "playing games." Over time, these parties got to be called, "play parties." Preachers did not object to children playing games, and even the old folks (and the preachers) would often join in, at family gatherings. To distinguish a game from a dance, young folks used the two-hand swing (no arms around waists), and sang a song giving the game directions, instead of having a fiddler and a caller.

Yes, it was a way of getting around the preachers. Nowadays, most preachers are happy if dancing is the worst thing their young folks do!

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation (Shake Them 'Simmons)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 03:34 PM

See play-party in The Cambridge History of English Literature, in Bartleby: Game and Play Party Songs
No help as to origin. It seems to be American, but I can't find any old quotes. The Oxford English Dictionary lists it as American dialect, but fails to give any of their usual quotes.
I wonder if it didn't come over an as as "immigrant" term with some of the strict non C of E groups from Scotland or England.

Subject: RE: Play Party pronunciation (Shake Them 'Simmons)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 21 - 12:31 AM

Shake them simmons down…circle to the left is one song: wing and Turn: Texas-Play Party Games Dallas: Tardy Publishing, 1936 from Alabama and Texas
And Possum up in a Simmon Tree…Eliza died on the train is another song from the Appalachian mountains.
Stephanie