left -handed fiddle pupil

Subject: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: GUEST,Kate B
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 08:40 AM

Does anyone have any experience of lefthanded fiddle playing(or any other instrument) Is it absolutely necessary to get a left handed fiddle or is it possible to learn as if you were right handed? maybe there are degrees of lefthandedness? Ive got a potential pupil who`s never played before and doesn`t own a lefthanded fiddle. I realise playing Lhand on a Rhand fiddle is a problem due to the pegs being in the way.I don`t want to start him off on an impossible task. Kate B

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 08:55 AM

I'm left handed and learned to play violin 25 years ago - my daughter is also left handed and is learning now.

I had an 'Old School' teacher - many's the time I was told not to squeeze my oranges! She was very strict with posture and correct grips, so basically I had no option but to learn the correct way. However, I would try the other way round at home, just to see if it was more comfortable. In my experience, it was just as easy, and better in the long term to learn the correct way. It also means that if you join an orchestra, you won't have to relearn, in order to sit sociably with everyone else. The major problem I had was bow control. Had I started with a 1/2 size bow rather than a full size, I think I would have got on better. I would suggest using a shorter bow until the wrist is used to the action and the control is better.

My daughter seems to be coping, drop CatsPhiddle a PM - she's the teacher!

I'm very left handed (basically use my right when typing, to hold a book or work the windscreen wipers), and since an operation on it 8 years ago, I'm even more so now. I found playing the violin made me think more about using my right hand. It gave me better control with it, although it's never going to replace my dominant hand..... When no-one is in the house, I pick up Bratlings' violin and have a sneaky practice.....

LTS

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 09:14 AM

I'm technically ambidexterous, but my left had does most of the small, precise things and my right hand does larger motions and those requiring strength.

I play fiddle right handed. More precision is required of the left hand - it's finger-work. The right just has to learn how to operate the bow - the bigger motions of hand/arm work.

Maybe if you were to hand the fiddle and the bow to the pupil and tell him to pretend he was playing. He might very likely pick it up with the neck in his left hand and the bow in the right.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From:
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 09:24 AM

Hi Kate. Welcome to Mudcat.

I know of several left-handed fiddlers from Cape Breton/the Maritimes who are sinister as well. Several of them play "right handed" ie a regularly strung fiddle, with the bow in the right hand. Some of them play the fiddle strung the opposite way. A few of them, most notable is Ashley MacIsaac, who plays a fiddle strung right handed but bows with his left hand.

I'm not going to suggest that it was easy for him, but it could be that it was easier than bowing with the right hand. Apparently they have to do everything the opposite of what they see/hear. But it DOES work. It allows them to play any fiddle wherever they might be in case of problems.

Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From:
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 09:27 AM

Jeri,
That's the argument I had with many guitar players and fiddlers. If their right hand is the main hand and is easier to control, why don't they handle the frets with that hand, and strum with the left! No consensus.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 11:11 AM

A fiddle strung backwards is not the same as a leftie fiddle -- fiddles are not symetrical in their structure -- but the leftie fiddles I have seen are quite a bit more expensive. It probably won't hurt to let your pupil play "right handed" for a while to see if they can adapt.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: jonm
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 12:08 PM

I'm very left handed and certainly couldn't play a right handed fiddle the correct way round. In addition, I have fingerpicker's nails on my left hand and play the mandolin strung right handed (the fingering is the same as for a fiddle).

When I have had the opportunity, I have tried playing right handed fiddles, bowing left handed. Works fine if you play from the elbow rather than the shoulder. Yes, I know that's not the done thing, and apparently you can't get the vibrato, but it works OK for an incompetent like me.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 01:30 PM

Im left handed and play right handed fiddle. I dont have any problems.

When I was taking lessons in Europe as a kid, no music teacher
would even think about teaching a student left handed violin.
the only people who learn left handed fiddle would be folk fiddlers, some play the fiddle with the strings as they are for right handed folks (eg Ashley MacIsaac) and others re-string for the left hand. (In which case you can never try a right handed players violin)
Id say more than anything a left handed fiddle player has an advantage as there is a lot more dexterity (I hate that word) in the dominant hand - ie. the fingers.
petr

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 12:50 PM

Many years back, fiddler Ryan Thomson's wrist problems forced him to give up the instrument -- briefly. With strong will and determination, he re-learned the fiddle left handed.

You may be able to get some info at his web site here.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:13 PM

And even more to the point, go to this part of Ryan's web site -- Tom

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: GUEST,Sibelius
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:12 PM

This one really gets my goat. Not specifically in respect of the violin, but of string instruments generally.

I recall a letter to a guitar magazine once where the writer, a beginner guitar player and a leftie, said his guitar teacher had told him to learn right-handed. Was this good advice? The mag's editor, a teacher himself, responded saying "Yes - and he'll be doing you a favour". As a teacher he should have known better.

Most people are rightly horrified when they hear stories from years past of left-handed schoolchildren being punished, even beaten, branded "sinister" and "diabolical", for writing with their left hand. Forced by their teachers to use their right (wrong) hand, the result for the child would be at the least frustration, difficulty learning, slow progress, and in many cases the triggering of conditions like dyslexia. Yet here we are, still peddling ignorant advice to left-handed beginner musicians that they should learn to play right-handed.

It's not just a case of one hand being dominant. The only reason one hand is dominant is that one half of the brain is dominant. So whether it's writing or playing the fiddle, if you are left-handed and you try to do it right-handed, you are forcing your brain to work against its own nature.

Similarly, we get this fatuous idea that lefties playing right-handed somehow gain an advantage because the "stronger" hand is doing the supposedly more difficult job of fretting the strings. If that argument held a molecule of water, all you right-handers would be playing left-handed!

There's far more to playing an instrument than the relative strength and dexterity of the two hands. It may be true that the 'weaker' hand can be made stronger and more adept with practice, but the precise co-ordination of the hands - by the brain - required to play an instrument to the best of the player's ability is far more significant.

I'm sure this is a far more tricky problem for fiddle players than guitarists. Good left-handed guitars aren't impossible to find, especially if you're prepared to spend a bit of time searching them out, but leftie fiddles seem rarer than hen's teeth.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:53 PM

when I first entered school in Europe in the mid60's mine was the first generation of pupils that wasnt forced to write with the right hand - as educators had just become aware of problems. So I consider myself lucky, but I couldnt disagree with you (sibelius) more on the instrument question.
I dont consider it a problem when it comes to playing an instrument.
Im a decent fiddle player, (a lot better than most right handed fiddle players I know) my advantage came from an early start, and lots of practice, I dont recall that at any time I wanted to play the other way. (If youre playing folk fiddle, it doesnt matter, butI doubt there are many classical violinists playing left handed)
What would you recommend for a piano student: re-stringing the piano?
Id consider that ignorant and fatuous.

Ive met Ryan Thomson, mentioned above, Ive seen him play two fiddles
at the same time, right and left handed (of course he had a couple of people doing the bowing) an impressive feat.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: BanjoRay
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:41 PM

Mitch Proctor, the fiddler with R Cajun (and our Old Time session) plays Cajun and Old Time music beautifully left handed on a right handed fiddle. He also plays superb guitar and mandolin this way. It's all doable - you just have to want it enough and put in the hours.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: Efiddler
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:52 PM

Just like to weigh in with my experience. I've taught left-handed people to play fiddle right-handed, and it does work. The only reason I do this is that it is nigh-on impossible to get a left-handed fiddle. It seems that because you are working with both hands anyway it isn't as bad as, say, learning to write right-handed.

I've been asked to convert violins to left-handed on several occasions - each time the potential customer has gone away when I've told them how much it will cost!

Efiddler

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:56 PM

Just turn the right hand fiddle over and play from a left hand position. Some of the worlds best do this such as Kinnon Beaton and Ashley MacIsaac. Always bow from the elbow and wrist; not from the shoulder.
The bowing and the fiddle's position are usually more upright.
(perpendicular to the floor). Vibrato should not be much more of a problem if the fiddle is properly sized for the student and if necessary chin and shoulder rests could be changed to the left side.
To my mind the bowing is more intricate than fingering for the master player. Cut notes especially require great bow control .
All this advice from someone who can't play the thing worth a damn with either hand . :-}

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:00 PM

I've never understood why people think that fingering is more complicated than bowing; in my own experience, and that, I'd say, of almost everyone I've ever talked with about it, it's quite the reverse, except for beginners, and the same is true of instruments like the guitar (unless your ambitions don't go further than strumming). Mind you, I speak generally; I don't doubt there are styles in which bowing is less important (I don't want Jeri to beat me up) but I haven't experienced them.

It's relatively uncomplicated to set up a standard guitar for left-handed playing (though that will depend to an extent on what sort of bridge it has), but a fiddle has to be built specially, or radically altered, due to the positioning of the bass bar and the way the table is thicknessed. Just reversing the strings won't do the sound any good, and will eventually damage the instrument.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:59 PM

Hey Malcom, I haven't beaten anybody up in at least a month! Seriously, I don't think it's a matter of fingering being more important than bowing - they're both important. Fingering just takes more small muscle control and bowing takes larger muscle control. Playing rightie works fine for me because my left is better at small stuff. (Although for some reason, I can tap my fingers, 1-2-3-4 on my rt hand and my left middle and ring finger come down at the same time. Go figger.)

A person who plays a right handed fiddle left handed would have to bo less upright, or less verticle and more horizontal. The bridge is higher on the right, toward the front of the fiddler, so he'd have to lift his arm up higher. The e-string tuning peg would be in the way. Not an insurmountable problem, but a major PITA.

I also believe if a person has already learned to fret a different instrument with a certain hand is going to have problems switching hands to finger a fiddle with the other hand. I tried guitar left-handed when I first got it and it felt very awkward. I think when I first started playing fiddle, I could have successfully gone either rightie or leftie.

And yes, there are degrees of left-handedness. I believe full on, right brain, do-everything-with-the-left-hand folks are pretty rare. I still say give the guy a fiddle and let him try different stuff.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 07:02 PM

Hi

Yes I do teach Liz daughter who is very left handed like her mother. If you or Greg Stephens PM's me I will give you my phone number or email addy and I will discuss the techniques I use. Some left handed people pick it up easily other have difficulties.

I have played a fiddled strung backwards and they do work BUT this is not a long term solution as it will damage the fiddle and the player would run into problems if wanting to play in a youth orchestra or quartet etc.

Khatt

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: NicoleC
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 09:53 PM

Hmmm. I think bowing requires more precise movements, particularly in the wrist. I guess that goes to show everyone is a bit different.

I'm barely more than a beginner, but I think one of the reasons I didn't have any trouble at all picking up bowing because I just thought small from the very beginning. My [former] instructor was forever perplexed that I could get complex bowing stuff right off the bat but am forever frustrated about my lefthand not going where it's supposed to.

Maybe *I* should try a leftie fiddle!

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 06:17 AM

I play fiddle, piano, flute, nyckelharpa. All require different things of both hands. Dominant hand in piano is the right, but left on the fiddle. I'm right handed. Didn't matter to me - either hand can learn.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: s&r
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 07:21 AM

we find that lefties (my wife is leftie, I am Rightie) that we have taught have no difficulty in playing right handed on a number of instruments including fiddle guitar and keyboard provided they have never played before.

We both teach, and advise the use of standard instruments where possible for a variety of reasons already mentioned.

If someone has played left handed even for a very short time, they are then (in our experience) committed to that way round.

The eventual style of the player does seem to change according to which role the dominant hand takes

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 07:58 AM

Ryan Thomson (aka "Captain Fiddle") has even written a book about left handed violin/fiddle playing, which can be seen at Left-Handed Fiddle

He was put in a position a few years back where he had to switch to left handed or not play at all (or worse yet ;-) have to play the accordion).

Ryan publishes a number of tutorials and books that are exceptionally useful.

Linn

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 09:59 AM

I agree with Jeri that playing fiddle "right-handed" actually demands more of the left hand. That's where you get the melody, after all. I am extremely RIGHT handed - if I can fiddle, I imagine a lefty could too.

My left-hand motor skills have improved quite a bit since I started fiddling.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: GUEST,Lynn Wood
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:44 PM

I am left handed and have been playing right handed for 10 years. I can now play along fairly well in sessions but I still have a lot of problems with bowing patterns, shuffles etc. I certainly think that the bow hand needs far more control than the fingering hand - if this were not so, then as Sibelius says above, right handers would have been playing the other way round for the past few hundred years!
It's still not a straightforward choice for a beginner though. It's very difficult to get a decent left-handed fiddle and you are restricting your choice of instruments in the future. I got a left handed fiddle after I'd been playing about three years but by that time I had got so far with the right handed one, and was enjoying the session playing so much, that eventually I just abandoned it and kept on with the right hand. I play well enough to enjoy the music, so I'm happy. However, I have since started playing both flute and concertina, neither of which causes a problem with the left hand, and I do find that I enjoy these more.

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: GUEST,kateb
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 04:47 AM

thank everyone for all that information! interesting to read the different views.i`ve got something to go on now. cheers kateb

Subject: RE: left -handed fiddle pupil
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:01 AM

Maybe this has more to do with left brain/right brain than left hand/right hand. In my case, the fingering hand needs more control.

Anyhow.... it probably wouldn't hurt any of us to be able to use BOTH hands to a greater capacity. :-)