BS: Elderberries??

Subject: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:52 PM

I've got masses of elderberries in my garden. Any suggestions for how to best use them?

I found this site which seem to be helpful - but I trust advice from Mudcatters more than from strangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:56 PM

my reccomendation? leave them to feed the birds.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:58 PM

and the elderberry pie recipe that site gives is liable to give your dentist extra business!

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:01 PM

Elderberry jelly can be great. Depends a lot on who makes it.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:02 PM

They aren't interested. Not with four cats.

One point - are elderberries in England and North America the same fruit? (I raise that because a lot of times we use the same word to describe totally different things - eg "robin" - and it can get confusing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:14 PM

What about elderberry wine

Gerry

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Janie
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:19 PM

The American Elderberry is sambucus canadensis. European elderbery is S. nigra. S. nigra has also become naturalized in the United States. The berries of either species may be used for jellies, jams or wine. Any number of receipes can be found on the web. They taste bad raw, and good cooked. They are also used for dye. Make elderberry fritters by battering and frying the blooms. Elderberry is also used medicinally to reduce fevers and inflamation. Native American's scraped the pith out of American elderberry stems, cut them into short lengths, and then strung them on cords to make teething rings for babies. It is supposed to ease the inflamation and discomfort associated with teething. I don't have firsthand experience with the teething rings, but have used elderberry for all the other applications with good success.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: gnomad
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:26 PM

UK elderberries are fine for winemaking.

Back in the 70's my father produced quantities of good quality red, which could stand alongside many a product of Bordeaux, though not the top rank.

I no longer have his notebooks, but I have the impression that most winemaking books will have at least one recipe.

We did try making jam, but never with any great success, the proportion of seeds to fruit made straining it vital, then you ended with a rather poor-setting jelly, and not a lot for the effort. Damsons were much more rewarding for jam, and pretty good for wine.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:27 PM

So I take it the American recipes work with the European berries, and vice versa. That's what I wanted to check.

Elder trees have a lot of magical associations. I'd sooner keep on the right side of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:28 PM

Be careful, though. There ARE 2 diff. types, one is heavenly for wine and jell, but the other smells 'catty'. Also, when RAW all parts of the elder contain a compund closely related to cyanide. Cooking/heat destroys this compound.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:37 PM

Make elderberry jelly. Like a jam but no seeds. Needs pectin (eg Certo) but the result is devine. Use it in apple pies instead of blackberry - just a little post cooking. as a jam with a difference - not too sweet if I remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:07 PM

My mom used to talk about her mom's elderberry wine and I think my brother made some one time.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:14 PM

There ARE 2 diff. types, one is heavenly for wine and jell, but the other smells 'catty'. Would that be the European and American varieties - and which is which?

Thanks for the word on the cyanide, Sorcha...

"Her mother she could never stand,
sing rickety-tickety-tin,
Her mother she could never stand,
and so a cyanide soup she planned.
Her mother died with the spoon in her hand,
And her face in a hideous grin..."

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:16 PM

And there's elderberry champagne and elderberry cordial ...

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:48 PM

Surely the "champagne" and cordial are from the flowers.

Wines from flowers and berrys are both superb.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:18 PM

I don't really know, Kevin. I know we have both around here and they look identical. You just have to smell the flowers in June.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Janie
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:23 PM

As far as I know--they can be used interchangably. I thought it was the Box Elder that smelled "cattie." I think (but am not sure) that the Box Elder is a maple, and is not easily confused with either the American or the European Elderberry.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:54 PM

I'm familiar with two types: the purple elderberry which is used for jelly and wine, and the red elderberry, also known as 'stinking elderberry' (True) which is popular with the birds but isn't used in the white culture. It's entirely possible that the Alaskan native culture has found a use for the red. They're way ahead of us in many ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:08 PM

I've never heard that bit about cyanide and I've always just picked the things off the bushes/trees and eaten them. They do look a bit like deadly nightshade (the plant is a lot smaller), but I'd think the nightshade would taste a yucky.

McGrath, I once hitchhiked back from a pub in Bicester and found myself near a massive stand of elderberries. They tasted absolutely the same as the American ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:10 PM

Jeri, do a Google on them. There are documented cases, usually children who like to use the hollow stems for blow guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:41 PM

I Googled. It seems the stems and leaves aren't very healthy, but berries aren't a problem. My father MIGHT have told me this and I forgot because I couldn't envision a situation where I'd feel strangely drawn to munch the leaves and stems.

Chokecherries look a lot like elderberries too.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:43 PM

That's reassuring - I've got a bowl of berries in the fridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:09 PM

The blacker the elderberries are, the better. Chokecherries are ripe when dark red, but not as black as elder.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:21 PM

Choke Cherry is a true cherry (Rose Family) and has leaves which are easily confused with ornamental (Christmas) holly. Boxelder is Acer negundo, a member of the same genus as true maples. It is a scruffy, moderate-size tree with very soft wood, especially in light of it's relatives. It is utterly worthless for anything, as far as I know, including firewood.The common Elderberry in California is Sambucus glauca, a low-elevation species with lots of berries, and yes, an odd smell when the berries are boiled to make jelly. (sorry, no itallics)

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:21 PM

To make a better set jelly mix the elderberries with crab apple or add lemon juice. The riper they are the more sugar they have, and the more sugar they have, the less likely you are to have a 'set'.

I've got several recipies for wine and jelly/jam if you'd like?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: vectis
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:36 PM

Kevin
Make wine with them. It makes a rich wine that gets smoother and better with age. I had a friend who kept a bottle of mine for 15 years. We drunk it one night in celebration and it was totally wonderful.
Most bottles get drunk before the year is up.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:55 PM

In the Pacific Northwest there are two native elderberries (not to be confused with box elder, etc.). Elderberry is in the honeysuckle family--Sambucus callicarpa (red) and Sambucus glauca (blue). It's a mistake to try to make a grab for an elderberry if you happen to slip or fall on a mountainside--they break off. And both plants stink--you'll smell them on your hands for while. Much better to grab for a blueberry or huckleberry--even twigs are strong enough to help catch your balance or break a fall.

Erna Gunther in her timeless little book Ethnobotany of Western Washington: The Knowledge and Use of Indigenous Plants by Native Americans lists both plants on page 47. She discusses many food and medicinal uses. But they are a great berry to leave on the bush--they ferment there and watching birds and bears drunk on this fruit is a real treat if you happen to be out in the woods at this time of the year!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 07:13 PM

Freeze them for 24 hours before using them for wine the extraction rate is so much higher

Gerry

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 07:43 PM

There's also Sambucus nigra/Sambucus canadensis. See this page.

Paul's Elderberry Page - wine, champagne, jelly, mead port and, erm...fritters are among the recipies
Some recipies, including vinegar, chutney and ketchup.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 08:39 PM

The ones I use for wine/jelly/sirup the flowers smell wonderful. So do the berries when boiling in water for the jelly juice.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 09:12 PM

Oddly enough, I've been starting the first of a few batches of elderberry wine today; had quite a good crop this year, and should get several gallons out of it, though it's only a tiny garden. I take the fruit from the lower part of the trees, and leave the stuff up top for the birds (they won't come any lower because of the cats) which seems fair on the whole. Mind you, I don't have a ladder, so I can't claim any virtue for not taking the lot.

Don't forget to add some pectolase if you make wine. Without it, the whole lot can turn into jelly in the bottle, which is a bit disappointing when you had intended to drink it.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 09:52 PM

Ah Yes. Elderberry wine.
"Dig another lock in the Panama Canal, Brother. We have another fever victim."

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Bert
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 11:29 PM

My personal experience is that jams and jellies tend to taste a little sweaty but the wine is great.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 11:45 PM

That "Sambucus nigra/Sambucus canadensis" is actually Sambucus nigra ssp (meaning subspecies) Canadensis. One plant, not two. What is the British plant, McGrath, do you know?

I believe the Brewster Sisters in Arsenic and Old Lace poisoned those lonely old gentlemen with arsenic in their elderberry wine. Must be pretty strong to hide the flavor.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 11:48 PM

Ah--Sinsull, we think alike. I left my screen up for a while before sending my post and missed yours.

"CHARGE!"

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 11:55 PM

My jelly isn't sweaty, but the wine can definitely have a laxative effect if you overindulge. I don't heat my wine must at all. Long time ago I made some elder wine and totally forgot about it for about 5-6 yrs. It was in a 5 gallon water jug and the airlock went dry. We moved house, and moved it. Year or so later, I saw it in the basment and decided to dump it. Too large a bottle to tip into the sink, so I started a siphon hose. The instant it hit my mouth, I changed my mind. It had accidentally developed a 'crust' like Amontiadollo ( I didn't spell that right) and was wonderful! It was a beautiful clear brown colour, just like good sherry. We got 15 bottles out of it. Not had the patience to let it do that again, and year old, non-oxidized elder wine is nowhere near as good.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: open mike
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 01:49 AM

i would recommedn taht the best way to extract juices from fruit
is with a steamer juicer. This works great for grapes-just
pile a bunch in the steamer basket...peels, seeds stems and all
and the juice comes out a spigot when it is done...simple and
good volume too. should work on other berries too.
plus it is a great help when making apple sauce as
i can just quarter and steam the fuits and put them thru a
squisher thing and wal lah! baby food.
dI love the look of elderberrie bushes/plants...
the white cluters of flowers and the purple berries with
sort of a dusty look--powdery sometimes i think.
rarly take to domestication...usually wild.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:32 AM

Things in the world of Botany can be confusing, there are apparently three Elderberries on the Pacific coast, red, black and blue.

My most recent text has the Red Elderberry of the coastal Pacific Northwest, listed as Sambucus racemosa ssp. pubens var. aborescens and the Black Elderberry of the Interior, which sometimes occurs on the coast too, as S. racemosa ssp. pubens var. melanocarpa. Blue Elderberry which is also found on the coast is listed as S. caerulea and has a fleshier blue berry with a whitish blume. Unlike S. racemosa (red and black), whose flower clusters are rounded or pyramid shaped, S. caerulea has flat topped flower clusters.

Red Elderberries are yucky tasting, small and seedy and will cause nausea if eaten raw, although they were was once a very important First Nations foodsource. The fresh leaves, stems, bark and roots contain cyanide producing glycocides.

All of them apparently make excellent jellies and wines, although the berries should be cooked first.

I've never made any jellies or wine with them, because there are so many better tasting berries here. However, I have made Oregon Grape and Salal Berry jelly. Salal berry jelly has a flowery, perfumy fragrance and a sharper flavour like a current jelly.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: open mike
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:55 AM

they seem to be in the composite family
the way the flowers cluster all in a clump like that...
tried to transplant one once..it didn't like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:19 AM

Well I see that Sins and SRS are on the same page as I am........Such nice gentlemen.

Cary at his campy best, but Peter Lorre really steals the show. And surely I am not the only one here to have done this venerable play in the HS/college days???? C'mon now....fess up!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Pied Piper
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:49 AM

Sambucus is a member of the caprifoliaceae.
The berries, flowers, and medicinal parts of the plant aren't its only uses; it has been used to make wind instruments such as the Fujara and in America these Anasazi Flutes were found. The article says that the flutes are made of Box Elder but this is clearly erroneous from the reference to the soft pith.
Bagpipe Drone and Chanter reeds used to be made of Elder and some people (myself included) are starting to use the material again.
Elder Uillean Pipe Drone Reeds
and another
I shall be harvesting some Elder wood this winter, as the plant is very common here in Manchester on "Brownfield" sites in urban areas.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Tig
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 08:26 AM

I set a load of elderberry wine going last Saturday with a different recipe I got off the web. I've now got a pound of happy raisins dancing up and down in the bucket!!

Let's hope it's as good as the last lot I made years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 08:41 AM

I think it'd be wine - so any surefire simple recipes? (I know that Paul's Elderberry Page I linked to has one, but it'd be interesting to see variants from Mudcatland.

(One thing I liked in the Paul page was where he has "Primary Fermentation vessel", with a link to a glossary where it gives a definition of the term - "covered bucket".)

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: black walnut
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:10 PM

We used to get our fingers purple collecting and cleaning elderberries every fall when I was a kid. They always went into the same thing - elderberry apple pie. Now that I'm old and grey, I have a cat, named Elderberry Ninepatch.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:08 PM

A lot of these recipes seem to involve a lot of work, which I'm not keen on. What I do with berries is all kinds is

buy a bottle of gin
put berries in big jars
add a good wodge of sugar
fill with gin
put top on
leave in cupboard
open, pour off liquid drink at christmas

simple, no sterilising, boiling,squeezing steaming filtering or anything. Can be done while waiting for a kettle to boil.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:20 PM

Metchosin,

I didn't post anything about the red elderberries making you sick because I couldn't find a confirmation of it--but this is what I was told my my Northwest Taxonomy class many years ago. Gunther made no mention.

The elderberry family won't have changed--it's still the caprifoliacea or honeysuckle family. But genus and species do sometimes get changed as research demands more accurate descriptions or sub-groups are identified. The following photos and drawings might help:

The red and blue have clusters of berries. The clusters have different shapes; the blue typically are a glob with a flattened profile on the broadest edge while the red is more of a rounded cluster.

Illustration of red elderberry and illustration of blue elderberry.

Spaw, I borrowed that movie from the library for my kids to watch, wondering if they (at ages 10 and 13) would tolerate a very old movie and one that is in black and white. After only a moment or two of skepticism, they were thoroughly engrossed and we watched it amid gales of laughter. Personally, while I love the Peter Lorrie performance, I always find Raymond Massey to be the most hilarious and over the top--"You look like Boris Karloff!" And that is classic Edward Everett Horton in there as the doctor.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:20 PM

Does it improve the gin?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:25 PM

It vastly improves the gin. It turns it from a tedious not very nice tasting colourless alcohol that just gets you drunk into something magically mellow that reminds you of the good weather and fruitfulness of the summer gone, as you snug up by your winter fire. It's like drinking a nice nostalgic happy page of your diary. Now, you couldnt say that about the original bottle of gin, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:36 PM

Why gin? Would vodjka work? Is a 'wodge' one of those UK measurements?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:52 PM

Vodka I'm sure would be fine. I've used gin several times, and also strange, vile tasting and unbelievably potent colourless liquids brought over by Bosnian friends in plastic lemonade bottles. In fact I would reckon vodka would be better, as the taste of the gin is what you are actully eliminating as you use the sugar and berries.
It's getting a a bit past the season for some stuff here in England, but there are still plenty of blackberries, damsons and elderberries in our garden which are ideal for this kind of drink making. I think the best drinks like this are mad in a good sized jar that you keep adding a handful of this and a handful of that to as the season progresses(interestingly the drink progresses from a warm red in early summer, as you start with strawberries, to a deeply satisfying purple as y ou get to blackberries and elderberries). The fruit mix of this all summer process makes a rich and interesting flavour, and improves the feeling of "drinking the summer diary". But one berry drinks are fine. Sloe gin is a classic. I've just made a big batch of damson/blackberry, and will be adding elderberries as well.
    yes, wodge is a highly technical english term, coming after the pinch and spoonful but before the bag and bushel. The wodge is similar (or a tad smaller) to the "standard British handful" but that is used to measure something quite different from berries.