Ten representative English folk songs?

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 01:31 PM

What about
The Keeper
Martin Said to His Man
Sheperd on the Downs (the Copper one, not sure if that is the right title}
53 Vincent Black Lighning (What do you mean it's not traditional, it is representative of the genre)
JohnB

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 01:45 PM

Fifty two... "They don't have a soul, like a Vincent Fifty Two..."

And in the same category would be "Julian of Norwich"...

ttr

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 07:07 PM

Couldn't possible pare my choices down to ten, but Ben, if you're looking for introductory material you might do worse than have a look at Musical Traditions. It's a treasure trove of (mainly) English traditional music.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 07:33 AM

It's all good!

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 07:47 AM

Anyone mentioned "Polly On The Shore"?
I have now.
JB

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:06 PM

In no particular order:
The Blackmsith.
Dance to Thee Daddy (When the Boat Comes in)/John Peel.
Johnny has Gone for a Soldier.
Over the Hills.
John Barleycorn.
The Lark in the Morning.
The Foggy Dew.
The Recruited Collier.
Barbarah Allen.
Elfin Knight.

Of course, these list are way too short and could change according to whim.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:03 PM

Here's my top ten representative English folksongs (not necessarily my favourites but ones that encapsulate the English tradition)

Banks of Sweet Primroses
Buttercup Joe
The Outlandish Knight
Barley Mow
All Jolly Fellows that follow the plough
Green Bushes
Nutting Girl
The Blacksmith
A Sailor coming home one night (Died for Love)
Seeds of Love

Gwilym

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:05 PM

Is John Barleycorn an English song? It is in my works of Burns. Lord Randall is also ,I think an old Scottish song.

Fathom the bowl, Sorrows Away, Byker Hill, just some of my favourites that I haven't seen mentioned.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:30 PM

Well, let me add

The Barkshire Tragedy
The Derby Tup (Ram)
Turmut Hoeing
On Ilkley Moore
Jan's Courtship
Old Farmer Buck
Johnny, My Jinjalo
I'm Seventeen Cum Sunday
Jack (Sam) Hall
The Eddystone Light

A few of these may have already been mentioned; if so, my apologies.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:03 PM

Representative of a crap night in boring folk club. thank god its a while since I've been in one that bad.

pretentious toi?

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM

I think, weelittledrummer, that you're missing the point of the thread and also the point of what English folk music is all about.

Gwilym

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:32 PM

10 from Northumbria:

1. Fareweel to Regality
2. Blow the Wind Southerly
3. De ye ken Elsie Marley, hinny?
4. Waters of Tyne
5. Scarborough Fair
6. Byker Hill
7. Sunderland Lasses
8. The Chep that Knaas Nowt
9. Cushie Butterfield
10.The Shoemakker

so many songs ... so little broon ale ...

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Surreysinger
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:02 PM

Hmm ... thought I might throw my two-happorth in.

Died for Love (preferably the version collected from Joseph Taylor by Lucy Broadwood and Percy Grainger in 1906 - great tune)

The Unquiet grave (got to have a revenant ballad of some sort)

Searching for Lambs (CJS thought it the most beautiful song - who could disagree?)

The Bonny Bunch of Roses

The Lover's Ghost or the Grey Cock (from Cecilia Costello - apart from the fact that I love the song, the words "the burning Thames I have to cross" always gets me intrigued - strong words which imprint themselves on the brain, but what were they originally before the folk process got involved ?)

The Seeds of Love (but not Mr England's version ... don't like the tune)

Bruton Town (a great example of a big murder ballad, with a story traceable back to at least Boccaccio. I remember having to study Keats' "Isabella or the Pot of Basil" at school - same story!)

All Things are Quite Silent (probably because it was one of the first folk songs I came across while around 9 years old, and because it reflects a historical practice, pressganging, which no longer existed when Vaughan Williams collected it - folk song as social history)

I give up - two more to go, and there so many that I'm fond of!! I'll stop there.

Incidentally, looking at some of the postings it's quite clear that some people's choices reflect where they come from! In my case it probably reflects the fact that I don't like chorus songs, and LOVE songs that are miserable or blood-thirsty!!

Just thought of one more - definitely need to have a broken token song, so how about Claudy Banks (I think it's already been mentioned, hasn't it?

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:40 AM

no. English folk music is a living breathing developing artform - not a gang of necrophiles trying to strike up a relationship like the bloke in the unquiet grave.

Anyway its a daft question. How would that work out if it were applied to any other artform?

Ten English novels. what would they be representative of. dickens represented himself, so did Charlotte Bronte, so did Evelyn waugh.

leaves out a lot , doesn't it.

ten English paintings gainsboro, stanley Spencer, john piper, ls lowry

I mean its all nonsense isn't it? what could it all represent. and anyway. What about the guys who have given folk music such a kick up the arse these last few years. How to assess their relative importance. Many have devoted their entire lives to folk music.

Lets face it for the last two thousand years - nobody has thought it was important at all - and then in the last hundred years we've had Cecil sharp, ewan Mac Coll.....one or two others

I doubt if it would make sense to do it for a single area of England - let alone England as a whole

anyway that's what I think

all the best

big al

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: John C.
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:42 PM

Why not just pick your 10 favourite songs from the Penguin Book (recently repub. 'Classic English Folk Songs', of course). In my opinion the best anthology and showcase of English song ever.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:09 PM

WLD - you have missed the defintion of folk music.

Almost all the other contributors to this thread understand it.

Would you put Nottamun town on your liest of the best ten Death metal anthems?

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Surreysinger
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:12 PM

John C - if I hadn't seen anything other than the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs (or Classic Folk Songs as it now is) I might agree with your suggestion. Yes it is a classic collection, and now with additional information about the singers who sang the songs, and the verses that Vaughan Williams and Lloyd left out or tinkered with - maybe guest Ben should consider getting a copy to start himself off with. I've owned most editions of it,adn return to it frequently, but then I moved outside it's contents and found versions that I prefer/ other types of song which it does not touch. After all, it was in itself a selection suggested by only two individuals.

Frankly I don't think you CAN make a list of only 10 best songs - everybody's taste differs, as does their experience of folk songs. The regional difference in types of song sung in clubs is quite marked even on a local basis for starters. However, it's certainly fun trying, and seeing what others suggest.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

Strangely enough Nottanum Town is one song i did ask Ewan macColl about. What did it mean, and he was very patient with me and explained it was all about riual and magic and he advised me to look at The Hunchback of Notre Dame to get a flavour of the festival of all fools.

Is it a folk song, when only learned men can conjecture at the meaning.

or is it a folk song when Bob Dylan writes a variant that scares the shit out of your parents, makes you proud to be young in a world of bloody old warmongers, takes a part in igniting the resistance to the Vietnam War. I believe there were some heavy metal versions.

which is the folk song? Which involves folk, and which involves dessicated old farts saying shush! when somebody wonders when its going to end, and the performer saying oh dear me I've forgotten the words, because nobody really knows the meaning - so no wonder somebody's forgotten them.

Which is the living art form?

i've an idea, which your answer will be. But I was listening just recently to one of our most talented young singers having a bash at Sheaf and Knife. He was doing cos it was worthy thing to do - every serious actor wants to have a go at the Hamlet soliloquy. I really didn't feel he had any purchase on the characters in the story, or that quite frankly that it fitted into a modern young mans mouth.

I think a lot of creative energy is being wasted on stuff that is quite resistant to being brought back to life. If there are eternal truths in these songs they are frequently very well hidden.

And I think I know enough about folk music through both my reading and listening in folk clubs for forty years and performing for over thirty years to be allowed an opinion as to what constitutes folk music - even if if it doesn't conform to everybody elses.

as for the bloke who wants ten reprensentative folksongs. why can't he stretch a point, and listen to eleven. Who knows perhaps the eleventh will give him an idea of the vain nature of his quest.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:26 PM

WeeLittleDrummer:

"Why ten songs? Why not eleven?"

Because the questioner was throwing a ball out onto the field, knowing that (this being Mudcat, after all) many people wouldn't stop at ten.

Also, if a submitter gave (as an extreme example) 100 songs instead of ten, not only would the thread become unreadable because of the great mass of suggestions, but even that 100-songs-submitter's post would tend to make a reader's eyes glaze over.

But also, having SOME limitation implies an effort to find (in this case) a limited set that is still representative. (And note that the question was "representative", not "good" or "best".) Given that there will be/have been many submitters, each with varying candidates, the body of suggestions can be expected to give a good survey of the field.

And to deal with your question of (in effect) why only these old, hackneyed songs instead of more current songs, I right away think of two answers:
1. Because the initial poster wasn't at the moment interested, for the purpose of this question, in the current songs that you might prefer; and
2. The field you'd prefer to discuss does not and cannot have the breadth and depth of the body of what I might call old-tradition folk songs, even though it may contain a lot of good songs.

If you'd like a similar survey of what's happening in the current "folk" scene, you are entirely free to start a thread asking that question. And it may well be an intensely interesting thread, but that's not this thread.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Lutz Eikelmann, Germany
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 01:52 AM

I suggest "Gypsy Davy" from the 14th Century, but it is still played today!

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: John P
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 09:27 AM

Off the top of my head:

Black Jack Davy
The Hangman
John Barleycorn
Little Musgrave
Geordie
The Three Ravens
The Two Sisters
The Outlandish Knight
Billy Boy
Barbara Allen

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:48 AM

And off the top of my head...

Rosemary Lane
The Trees They Do Grow High
Reynardine
As Sylvie Was Walking
Lord Franklyn
Geordie (or Georgie)
Pretty Saro
Scarborough Fair
The False Bride
Willie O' Winsbury

Pete

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: John C.
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:01 PM

Weelittledrummer, what is your problem? Why do you continue going to folk clubs if you hate the old songs so much? If I understand you correctly, your definition of folk song is different from everyone elses - so why not call it something else and start your own club?
You also seem to be suggesting that a person can only appreciate/sing songs which are relevant to his/her own time and place (I seem to remember that when Ewan MacColl suggested that people only sing songs from their own backgound he was damned for all eternity!).
Actually, I like lots of music which is not from my own milieu - I wasn't brought up in Mitteleuropa in the Eighteenth century but I like Mozart; I didn't experience New York in the 1920's but I'm fond of Gershwin; I wasn't a black slave or labourer in the Deep South of America but I appreciate Blues and I wasn't an exile from Anatolia in Piraeus but I love Rembetica etc., etc. But my first love is English traditional song and I have friends who share my passion - and if that offends you WLD, tough!
Actually, I have spent the last 30 years in Manchester which has produced loads of very fashionable popular music in the last few decades - frankly none of this stuff is to my taste and it doesn't speak to me or move me like English trad. song does. I'm sure you don't approve of that WLD - but again, tough, and please feel free to call me all the names you like.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: John C.
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:36 PM

I noiced earlier in this thread a query from Mary Humphreys about the 'Recruited Collier'. Well, Mary, an interesting (free) article has recently appeared on the Web called 'A.L.Lloyd and Reynardine: authenticity and authorship in the afterlife of a British broadside ballad' Folklore, Dec 2004, by Stephen D. Winick. This an interesting article about Bert and his methods and sources and includes some info. about 'The Recruited Collier'(which, sure enough, is not what we thought it was - oh dear!).
If I knew how to do it, I would provide you with a link - but just put 'Reynardine' into Google and it's easy to find from there.

Happy Reading!

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:22 PM

I still sing Nottamun Town. I learned it from my late wife, who may very well have learned it from MacColl - but if MacColl wanted people to sing songs of their own traditions, why did he not stick to Sheffield songs - or his real name or birthplace? I hate to say of of a good socialist, but the man was a fraud through and through.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:27 PM

I suppose there's something to be said for the idea that a person can only appreciate/sing songs which are relevant to his/her own time and place, and I must say I keep finding relevance in traditional songs - many have been honed over the years to embody timeless human conditions, in whatever guise. Also, I like songs whose words aren't either drowned out by the music or are mercilessly moronic - something I find lacking in a lot of 'modern' rock or pop music. But that's a matter of personal taste, of course.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 10:34 PM

John C might note that Mary's enquiry was made in 2003, and that I provided a link to a current discussion here which dealt in some detail with The Recruited Collier, and which includes a reference to more extensive analysis.

This is an old thread recently revived. I hadn't realised that Stephen's paper from the most recent edition of Folklore could be seen online. On the subject of Rinordine/Reynardine (not an English song) see various past threads on the subject, to some of which Stephen has contributed under his mudcat alias.

As for MacColl; he probably was talking nonsense when it came to Nottamun Town, but it was fashionable to read arcane and "pagan" meanings into all sorts of things in those days.

Why would Ewan need to be singing Sheffield songs in order not to be hypocritical? He never lived here. (Yes, I know about the much-quoted, and usually misunderstood, "policy". It didn't last long, though resentment over it clearly has; he was inclined to be tactless, by all accounts. There was a good reason for it at the time, but that, too, has been discussed elsewhere and needn't be gone over yet again).

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 01:14 AM

Cornish Nightingale
A-Roving
The Mermaid
Widdicombe Fair
Lincolnshire Poacher
Willikins and Dinah
The Keeper
London's Burning
Pop Goes the Weasel
Three men went a hunting

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:42 AM

Sorry: not Sheffield. Salford.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:47 AM

PS. I think 25 miles is close enough!

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:54 AM

It's a bloody long and hilly 25 miles though Richard!!

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,PC Copper
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 11:13 AM

'Hard Times of Old England'?

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 02:13 PM

Suzanne said (and others referred to the same idea):

I suppose there's something to be said for the idea that a person can only appreciate/sing songs which are relevant to his/her own time and place,

Ahh, but what does "relevant" mean?

Folksongs (almost all of them, if not all) relate to human nature and experience, and that is always relevant to all of us.

Sure, a Tibetan folksong, say, or a Hottentot song, sung in its original language, is not likely to be something that I as a singer or my kind of audiences find relevant.

But a folksong which has it's "home" in English, whether from Britain, Ireland, Oz, NZ, Canada, or the USA, and which hits MY imagination enough to want to sing it, is relevant, to my mind. And nobody has any business criticizing my decision to sing it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 12:02 PM

I suppose there's something to be said for the idea that a person can only appreciate/sing songs which are relevant to his/her own time and place,

If we take this to mean that most people will find it easier to appreciate songs that relate to their experinces, than those that do not, then the above statement is hard to argue with.

Yes, for most of us now getting conscripted/dying in childbirth/insert typical folk song event is fairly rare, but other common themes, such as broken hearts are not.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 07:58 PM

MacColl and his colleagues were reacting against people singing songs from traditions which were entirely foreign to them, and of which they had no understanding. In those days it was fashionable to sing African and Jewish songs, for instance; most of the people who did that belonged to neither culture and had simply learned words in a foreign language parrot-fashion. They didn't like having their little "aren't I cool" bubble punctured.

Admittedly, Ewan was inclined to be tactless, and at times the rule (which only lasted a short while) was taken too far and many feelings were hurt. Nevertheless, the principle, however mis-represented today, was soundly based. I'm afraid that we are still plagued with people who want "phonetic" transcriptions of Gaelic songs so that they can pretend to sing them without having to bother to learn even the most basic rules of the language; and with "Socialist Choirs" who trot out African songs without the smallest understanding of language or context.

Fashion victims; and, what is worse, cultural imperialists: exactly the people they affect to despise. Say that sort of thing here, and you'll get some really quite venomous reactions from people who want instant gratification ("You can't tell me what to do! You're a folk nazi!") but who are too lazy to make the effort to learn even the basics of somebody else's culture before cherry-picking from it.

Serious thread-creep here, of course.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: red max
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:28 AM

It did seem to be a well intentioned rule. Last St George's Day my local club ran an English-themed night, and some of the regulars were clearly nonplussed by the prospect of singing something from their own country

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,sj
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM

Hi
A friend of my dad's died recently, and his family who he didn't have much contact with, asked us about the kind of music he likes, re plans for the funeral. My dad knows he liked folk music but has never had an interest in it himself. The guy didn't have a selection of CDs to give us clues, and din't get out to a Folk Club regularly. Any suggestions of English folk music appropriate for a funeral would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Sue the Borderer
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:35 PM

Hi sj

That's a really hard question to answer without knowing anything about your dad's friend. It set me looking through mudcat threads about funerals. You might like to try some, though you could end up confused since everyone has different views (like they do on this thread)
If you search for 'RE: Memorial Service Threads?' you'll find that the second posting on it has a list of other threads, such as 'What song do you want sung at your funeral'. (Sorry, I can't manage the blue clickies)

There's a huge mixture of stuff - and you probably won't feel any the wiser! It might help if you tell us a bit about what your dad's friend enjoyed doing. Did he have any hobbies/interests?
For instance, if he was a walker then Ewan MacColl's 'Joy of Living' which starts off 'Farewell you northern hills' could be appropriate.
If he liked the sea/sailing then 'the Farewell Shanty' or 'Leave her Johnny leave Her'
More serious or religious? 'Only Remembered' or 'What's the life of a Man'
Just instrumental? 'Ashokan Farewell'
Me, for my funeral I would like 'When All Men Sing' by Keith Scowcroft and Derek Gifford.
Some (but by no means all) of the 'English Folk Songs in this thread could be suitable, depending on the tone that the family want to set. (eg sombre or upbeat)

If you can give us some guidance, it would help. 'Folk' covers such a huge range of stuff! Is there anyone you can ask about what kind of folk music he listened to? Even one CD would give us a clue!

I imagine time is fairly short, but it would be good if whatever was played in his memory and to celebrate his life was 'right for him'. Do post again if you're still stuck - and do let us know what is chosen.

I hope you and you're dad find what you're after

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:55 PM

No one's mentioned sheep's crook and black dog yet. It is English trad isn't it? Also, not songs, but if you're interested in english folk you ought to have at least a brief look at some morris tunes etc.

Also I'd be tempted to add things like crazy man michael, however new they are, because they've become such an important part of the folk scene these days. Some of the more common cross-pollinations from ireland, scotland etc wouldn't go amiss either. Oh! and flondike shore I think it's called. Bloody good song. Where's Henry Martin from? And something dodgy like the cuckoo's nest. The whirly whorl is good too.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:04 AM

Depends what sort of friends the deceased had. the important thing is not to upset the living any more than possible. No use singing ain't it grand to be bloody well dead if they're a gang of miserable sods.
If the dead chap had a profession, there are lots of songs about jobs.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

"No-one stands Alone" by Blue Murder worked well for a mate of mine.

My friend Jacky - wants "Hit the Road Jack". Depends on your sense of humour I suppose.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Sue the Borderer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM

Another thought, sj, was that whatever song you choose, you need to be able to get hold of a cd with it on very quickly. Is there a local folk club? Have you - or your dad - approached them for any ideas? They might even lend you the CD.

Sue

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:38 PM

I had forgotten this thread until it was revived. What a wonderful range of English roots music listed: my roots.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Schantieman
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 03:16 PM

What's the Life of a Man?
Blessed Quietness


S

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:24 PM

In no particular order:
1.Banks Of The Sweet Primeroses
2.Claudy Banks
3.John Barleycorn
4.Seven Yellow Gypsies
5.Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard (Or Matty Groves, etc, whichever)
6.The Trees Do Grow High
7.Brigg Fair
8.Here We Come A-Wassailing
9.William Taylor
10.The Happy Man

My two cents: representative to me has to include a sustainability. If every major English folk musician has performed, or wanted to perform these songs at some point, there is a reason. Yes, the tradition goes deep, but there is a reason these songs are performed again and again. Mind you, there are sometimes better, darker, creepier, funnier, or make you lust for a pint songs than these songs, but they haven't stood the test of time (or been transcribed in books more!). To me as well, the songs have to "smell" English. Take tunes for example. When I listen to the tunes that someone like, Brass Monkey arranged, I am instantly transported to England, same as when I hear bluegrass I'm in Kentucky, or an Irish tune, in a pub in my dear Donegal! Banks Of The Sweet Primeroses, or The Happy Man, etc, just transport me, and for that reason, that is why they are here. Cheers,

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 02:27 PM

Even today, most English people only think of themselves as English when they are comparing themselves to people who are not English. Within England itself, I think most of us notice the differences more than the similarities.

Cornwall has its own flag which is flown all over the county, and features in anti-English grafitti. The flag of Devon is starting to be flown by individual citizens and businesses in Devon. We have Geordies, and Scousers, and Londoners, and so on. And don't foget the Yorkshiremen (try as you might...) who themselves think of themselves as being from one of the three ridings, or the various individual cities and towns. People think of themselves as "northerners" because they look down on southerners; and vice versa.

So what is an English folk song? Even if we agree on a definition of "folk", and "song" we must still struggle with "English".

It is no coincidence that so many of the songs suggested in this thread have place names, Brigg, Byker Hill, Cornish, London, Scarborough, Widecombe, Winsbury...

And choosing one of each sort (broken token, night visiting, shanty, hunting...) is artificial, because these categories are recent inventions, overlaying an earlier tradition.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 02:57 PM

1 April Morning.
2 Claudy Banks
3,JustastheTideisFlowing
4 The Bold Fisherman
5 GameofallFours
6 Bushes and Briars
7LovelyJoan
8Streams of Lovely Nancy
9DevonshireFarmersDaughter
10ThoughI live Not Where I love.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 03:06 PM

Dick, we must get pissed together sometime - if either of us sing any of that lot - they're paying for the drinks!

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 01:27 PM

Interesting to see this old thread revived and rerevived. A quick glance back suggests "Searching for Lambs" is the "winner" with most nominations. Well, by me and Eliza Carthy anyway.I have not the time or nerdiness, but it would be interesting to see them all actually counted and arranged in order.Wee Little Drummer is the most intriguing poster, everyone else likes English folksongs and he appears to hate them because they are not relevant to something or other, not sure exactly what they are not relevant to. Very odd. AS someone who has just finished working on a project with young black rappers looking at some old folksongs, I assure you the most unlikely songs can be "relevant", check'em out. Safe.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 01:59 PM

ah that's me, a man of intrigue.....

trad music is all right. you just don't meet many people who can actually do it in a less than boring manner. When you do meet someone with a dash of creativity in their soul - its actually bloody surprising.

you could say the same thing about contemporary stuff - true enough, but our ears are more attuned to modern language use. Its easier to be rubbish at doing Just as the Tide was flowing than it is at say Tom Paxton. I know - I've been rubbish at both in my time.

Recently I saw John Rigby and his version of Polly on the shore (accompanied by a harmonium) really stopped me in my tracks - he was that good. But I don't expect to see stuff like that every week.

i think with trad - its a case of many are called, but few are chosen - whereas anybody can have a half decent go at a beatles song. If you forget the words the audience can help you out.

there are no lifelines out there for the trad singer. he's on his own.

And that isolation, in turn should tell you something. If its that good Greg, why do you need to tell rappers about it - why isn't it part of everyday life. I think if we are honest - a lot of isn't that good - as performance material - it belongs in a museum.