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BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth

ard mhacha 19 Sep 03 - 01:16 PM
Peter T. 19 Sep 03 - 01:53 PM
akenaton 19 Sep 03 - 04:42 PM
C-flat 19 Sep 03 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,Mark 20 Sep 03 - 11:26 AM
Gareth 20 Sep 03 - 07:04 PM
akenaton 20 Sep 03 - 08:02 PM
alanabit 21 Sep 03 - 02:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Sep 03 - 05:09 AM
John MacKenzie 21 Sep 03 - 11:52 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 21 Sep 03 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,pdq 21 Sep 03 - 12:56 PM
John MacKenzie 21 Sep 03 - 01:26 PM
Gareth 21 Sep 03 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,Mark 21 Sep 03 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Gareth 21 Sep 03 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Mark 21 Sep 03 - 04:09 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Sep 03 - 04:22 PM
akenaton 21 Sep 03 - 05:08 PM
Gareth 21 Sep 03 - 07:15 PM
akenaton 21 Sep 03 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,pdq 21 Sep 03 - 07:52 PM
akenaton 21 Sep 03 - 08:06 PM
Leo Condie 21 Sep 03 - 08:37 PM
GUEST,pdq 21 Sep 03 - 08:59 PM
akenaton 21 Sep 03 - 09:04 PM
akenaton 21 Sep 03 - 09:10 PM
GUEST,pdq 21 Sep 03 - 09:31 PM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Sep 03 - 12:26 AM
alanabit 22 Sep 03 - 03:49 AM
GUEST 22 Sep 03 - 06:06 AM
TIA 22 Sep 03 - 08:36 AM
GUEST 22 Sep 03 - 04:35 PM
Leo Condie 22 Sep 03 - 06:59 PM
Gareth 22 Sep 03 - 07:06 PM
Bobert 22 Sep 03 - 07:23 PM

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Subject: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 01:16 PM

Tony Blair`s Labour Party were beaten into second place by a Liberal-Democrat opponent.
The Lib-Dem victor turned around a 13,000 odd majority this in a safe Labour seat, the winner put her victory down to the Labour Partys disasterous Iraqi War venture.
I wonder how often Blair awakes from his sleep to curse the day he ever met Bush. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 01:53 PM

Ain't democracy painful! yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 04:42 PM

Democracy my arse...Ill start crowing when the socialists beat"new labour" in a by-election,not a bunch of "carpet baggers".
      Ake...


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: C-flat
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 08:44 PM

Unfortunately it still represents nothing more than a protest vote against "New Labour". There still isn't a party that offers enough serious opposition to make the next general election valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 11:26 AM

Great to see Tony Blair and his cronies get a kick up the XXXX.

However, I agree with Akenaton. I would have loved to see real socialists winning.

In Scotland there is a real, true socialist party; the Scottish Socilaist Party , which is led by Tommy Sheridan and now has 6(?) SMPs in the Scottish Parliament. Watch out for folk like Rosie Kane and Colin Fox as well as Tommy; they are brave, honest socialists and it is great to see them winning votes and making a difference in Scottish politics. Here's to them !


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 07:04 PM

Hmmm ! As a Party Loyalist I loose no sleep over this.

70% of the electorate stayed at home.

This site Click Here gives a better statistical view.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 08:02 PM

Mark..speaking as an ex Communist,when I say I would love to see the Socialists beat New Labour,I dont necessarily think that would be good for the "people". Tommy and his well meaning friends come from a long line of losers...Politics is not the answer..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 02:55 AM

It has always been easier to respect New Labour than to love them. However, I fear that some posters here are under the illusion that a British Prime Minister would be alllowed to interfere in British foreign policy. That is nonsense of course. It has been since before I was born. UK foreign policy is decided in the White House, but as long as our politicians pretend they make it themselves, they will have to pay the electoral price of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 05:09 AM

Seventy per cent stayed home, precisely. That should worry "Party Loyalists" in any party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 11:52 AM

I think all elections where less than 51% of the electorate turns out, should be declared null and void. There is only one answer to voter apathy, and that is compulsory voting. In addition there should be a "Write-in" space, and a "None of the above" space on all ballot forms.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 12:54 PM

70% of the electorate stayed at home. Gareth, Labour had been hoping more would stay at home. Their best chance of hanging in was a low turnout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 12:56 PM

Compulsory voting is ridiculous! The government should not tell people
what to do unless what the people are doing is deemed "criminal". The
problem is poor candidates! Few good people are willing to be pilloried
in public just to become an elected government official. If 20% turnout
results in a great representative and 79% results in a bad one, where
would stand? It makes a great deal of sense to allow the most informed
voters to go to the poles and the least informed to stay home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 01:26 PM

Requiring people to vote requires them to think about voting, and that is more than a lot of the people who actually vote do. They are mainly party members, and activists, the few who vote. Nobody is saying jail people who don't exercise their vote, but a small fine of about £10 would help swell the chancellor's coffers, and encourage voters into the polling station. Of course that will bring out the moaners, and professional martyrs, and there will almost certainly be a Can Vote Won't Vote brigade, but hey what's politics without oddballs.
As far as improving the standard of candidates is concerned, perhaps if parliamentary candidates came from, and lived in the constituency they represented, then local people would feel connected. The best examples of this parachuting in of candidates that I can think of were Teddy Taylor in Southend, and Roy Jenkins in Hillhead. Also make them work a normal day like 9 till 5, work at least 46 weeks a year,and ban all lawyers from standing.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 03:11 PM

Kevin it worries me in the long term, but I am afaid elections, particullaly General Elections tend to be one and lost on differential turnout rather than a switch of votes.

1945 and 1997 were execptions to that rule.

Low turnouts give interesting results, but are no good indicator to the long term trend.

The ULR I gave previously shows a more statistically valid set of figures.

Fionn - no doubt you have impecable sources for your comment, perhaps you could expand on that stayement.

For myself I can only recall one local authority by election where a low turn out was aimed for - One of the Geriatric Wards in Herne Bay.
That was timed for early February, on the old register as we thought, correctly, we had the organizational edge in Postal Votes on the pre 2001 rules, and had a tame Doctor to countersign then.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 03:37 PM

I am enjoying this thread !

Akenaton, I think you are probably right and I am probably naíve, so could you please expand on your reply to me about Tommy Sheridan etc..

Who would you include in your long line of losers ? What makes you an ex-communist ( and not just a communist )? And what is the answer if it isn't politics ?

I would genuinely like to read your ideas and learn from them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST,Gareth
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 03:47 PM

Why would anyone be a party loyalist ? We are talking about politics here and one must be loyal to ideas that you believe in.

I always thought I would vote labour. Perhaps I thought I would one day be a party loyalist ! I celebrated when the Tories were finally kicked out and Labout got in. However, I knew that I had serious reservations.

Let's discard the domestic stuff like the health service and education. That's serious stuff, but I respect that people can have different points of view on it. But what about Iraq ? Really and truly can you be loyal to a party that went to war under those circumstances ?

Alanbit is right, our foreign policy is decided in the White House, and given that George and Co. are in charge I would be very concerned about being loyal to a party that is indirectly led by them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 04:09 PM

Oops ! I put Gareth's name in above, as though he had posted it ! Sorry. I was responding TO Gareth !


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 04:22 PM

If God wanted us to vote He would have given us candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 05:08 PM

Mark...Im sorry if my remarks were a bit obscure,and I certainly would not call you naive,as Iv been naive most of my life.
Iwas one of the folk who walked from Glasgow Green to SSEC on Feb15th 2003,I listened to a succession of lackluster speeches from party hacks, for over an hour and got mad that the obvious feeling in that huge crowd was being squandered.Then Tommy rose to speak...His first words were.."Brothers and sisters",you could feel the emotion surging through the crowd,and he had them in the palm of his hand,they cheered his every word and would have stormed the SSEC if he had asked them.
Tommy comes from a long line os Socialist orators Mclean Maxton Gallagherect who have become Folk heros,but whos policies would have given the people no more happiness than Capitalism does.The painfull truth i have learned in life ,is that people dont want Socialism.They dont want to sacrifice themselves for others,whether this is 200years of conditioning ,or "human nature" is debatable,but unimportant
Politics are basically a tool to allow the few to control and manipulate the many, and Socialism, full of kindness and idealism as it is,makes that manipulation all the easier.
As iv stated on other threads I now no longer see politics as any kind of answer to the search for human happiness and fulfillment.
I see the answer in very simplistic terms...personal love...kindness to one another on a personal level and a true understanding and appreciation of the "natural world"
Organisiation is very bad for humanity...Best Wishes Ake

PS As an AthiestI would say that Jesus Christ had the right idea before he got hi-jackedby the Church


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 07:15 PM

Guest Mark - Glad you were prompt to clarify matters. It was not good to see !!!! *BG*

My view on Iraq and American sponsored terrorism, such as the PIRA are well known on the 'Cat. Although the many don't like them.

Shall we just say I considered the invasion of Iraq the lesser of two evils, and yes it was "in my name".

I suspect that despite the complete lack of forward thinking on Bush's part, and the lack of "fire discipline" on the part of some U of A soldiers ( and thats understandable ) casulties in Iraq are far less, on a daily basis, than when Saddams thugs ruled the roost.

Bluntly US of A and British troops acted as the armed wing of Amnesty International - and that can't be a bad thing.

But then I have principles.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 07:40 PM

Gareth, I'm amazed by the self righteous tone of your last post .I dont think that there is anyone who would dispute that to remove a tyrant from power is a good thing.But surely it is the motivation for this action that concerns people.Are there to be no rules left in how we relate to other countries? Is might always to be right?
My own take on the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq,was that they were taken to safeguard our economy(marketing and distribution of oil)..Not theft, but just as bad in a moral sense.

Do you think it right that morality takes second place to our economic needs?....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 07:52 PM

Ake, you can judge the action but you have no knowledge as to motivation. You just do not know what Bush and his advisors were thinking. The majority of Americans agree with Gareth on Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 08:06 PM

pdq...The majority of Americans dont know if their arseholes are punched or bored...Best Wishes Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: Leo Condie
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 08:37 PM

Akenaton...I appreciate where you're coming from but I'd say that politics is one of the many answers. there's many ways that we, as socialists, as people who actually don't want to see humanity destroy itself, can make changes. and yes, politics is one of them. tommy's done a grand job of stopping warrant sales and poindings, and now with 5 more MSPs, left-wing views have been appearing in the media a lot more commonly. i think it's a case of every little helps, so dinnae fret. there's no need for cynicism after we've seen the biggest anti-war protests in the world, ever. sure, war still went ahead, but there are a lot more people out there than ever before prepared to shout it down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 08:59 PM

"I see the answer in very simplistic terms...personal love...kindness to one another on a personal level and a true understanding and appreciation of the "natural world"
Organisiation is very bad for humanity...Best Wishes Ake"

Better living through hypocrisy???


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 09:04 PM

pdq "Better living through hypocracy".Please explain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 09:10 PM

pdq Im sorry if my wee joke about Americans upset you . Sadly we Brits are just as ignorant as to the origins of our arseholes...
          Cheers Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 09:31 PM

Here we say "opinions are like assholes...everybody has one"


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 12:26 AM

In Australia we have Compulsory Voting.

We also had Paulne Hanson elected ...

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:49 AM

You did indeed. However, I read that your system has now relocated her to to more fitting company...


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 06:06 AM

Yes Gareth, Sadaam was a horrible person. I don't think you will find many around here who were upset at the idea that he may be removed from power or indeed over care about what his fate may be.

I don't see that as justification for war though. There are plenty of other tyrants in the world - why not them? Who's standards should we use in determing who is a tryant that needs removing? Personally I find the idea that one single country (the US, of course with its faithful puppy, the UK) should consider they have the God given right to decide rather more worrying than the knowledge people like Sadaam exist in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: TIA
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 08:36 AM

Precisely Guest 06:06 AM. I'd believe in the principles of the armed wing of Amnesty International if they also went after tyrants without oil. There sure are plenty. Interestingly, Amnesty International believes that this country needs fixin'. Who's got the principles to do it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 04:35 PM

Good on ye, TIA !

Gareth, everybody knows Bush and Co. only kicked out Sadam for the oil. Party Loyalists are going to look like the biggest eejits of our time if they keep coming up with that old " we did it for the Iraqi people " nonsense. Nobody believes it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: Leo Condie
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 06:59 PM

another kick in the teeth was broadcast tonight on ITV at 10:45pm...bravo john pilger


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 07:06 PM

Yup ! Anon Guest, he's gone. And can you suggest any other way ??

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair`s kick up the teeth
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 07:23 PM

Now its no secret that Wes Ginny ain't in the UK but that ain't gonna stop me from sayin' that whatever Blair gets, he earned. He deserves to be ousted because he was a con-conspirator in attacking a defenseless nation. Yeah, he lied to his people just as his buddy Bush lied to us. They even got together prior the attcak to get their lies in harmony. They both knew they were lieing and di it anyway...

So he, as well as his American counterpart, needs to be removed from power... No compromises.... Jus' go, dangit! Jus' go!

Bobert


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