BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'

Subject: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 01:31 PM

I know we discussed this before, but because of the volatile nature of it, I decided to wait before renting it. Truthfully I found it milder than I expected and I DIDN'T think that Michael Moore ambushed Chuck Heston. When he let him in the house, Heston acknowledged that he knew Moore AS A FILM MAKER, meaning he would have been aware of "Roger and Me"....so Moore's take on guns would not have come as a surprise. I simply think Heston got tired of arguing. (s'pecially since he was getting all his "countries' gun stats" info wrong)

As to whether we Canadians don't lock our doors.......well.......sometimes. Yes, Michael IS manipulative and there's a lot of editing in the film, but Bravo to him. How the Hell did he get it released? Did K-Mart actually follow up with it's promise to sell no more ammo?

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 01:54 PM

Heston was in the early stages of alzheimers disease, and if you know anything about the disease, yes his extremely articulate oratory skills were beginging to fade. I am sure he doesnt play his guitar as much either, but he was not asked about that. As for my doors, they are always locked, even in Canada eh!

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 02:01 PM

I agree with you Rick. Carol and I rented it a couple of weeks ago. Heston certainly did seem to know the character of the interview as it proceeded. Seems to me that he just got tired of Moore's tone and questions. Moore did badger him, he could have edited THAT out but he didn't. All in all it was a good movie. Moore didn't prove all of his contentions (particularly that the incident was due to bowling) But in a "special feature" of the DVD Moore said that he was simply trying to dialog. In that he was very successful.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 02:16 PM

One glaring omission on the part of Moore, I think, was that when he noted that there are a lot of guns in Canada, he didn't specify the types of guns. We have a lot of rifles in Canada, for hunting purposes, keeping down predators on farms and ranches, etc. But I'm not sure of the number of handguns and such things as assault weapons we have here, and I really wish he had been specific about that.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 02:22 PM

Ta fer reminding me... I still haven't seen this... and I want to.. mostly cause I loved "Canadian Bacon"

As far as ambushing Chuck Heston... well... someone needs to... That guy's a frigg'n wacko...

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 02:46 PM

Heston may have been in the beginning stages of Alzheimer's but you'd have to "know" that in order to discount anything he said. His information was no more inaccurate than that which passes for fact in NRA brochures. I know; I've read them.

Moore's contention that 7 of 10 million households in Canada contain guns simply ain't right. My guess is that the vast majority (as pointed out by guest pdc) of Canadian firearms are of the "22" type or whatever you use to scare bears, ducks, beavers and visiting Yankee vacationers!!!

Cheers and keep your powder dry,

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 02:53 PM

Moore didn't prove all of his contentions (particularly that the incident was due to bowling).

That wasn't his contention - the point he was making was that there was no more reason to blame what happened on the killers' taste in music or the type of clothes they wore and so forth than to blame it on some more conventional activity like bowling that they also went in for.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:16 PM

Moore never answered his own question, presumably because he wants people to figure it out for themselves, but the film very strongly hints that a major cause for gun violence in the US is the institutionalized poverty that is a result of American capitalism.

It's a good and important point, don't you think?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:20 PM

The title was meant to be ironic, but you can bet that sailed right over the heads of many Americans.

Since when does raising issues require "proving" something? Moore was always upfront about what his intentions were with the film--to get people talking. On that count the film was wildly successful.

I never thought the so-called ambush of Heston was unfair. After watching the film, and seeing all the things Heston had done while supposedly in the "early stages" of Alzheimers (yet still not too far gone to continue to make speaking appearances for the NRA), I was so angry about Heston, I felt that Moore was a bit too polite and accomodating to the bastard.

I haven't rented the DVD yet, but plan to. I am also looking forward to the new book "Dude, Where's My Country?":


http://www.michaelmoore.com/

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:34 PM

Thanks for bringing this to discussion, again, Rick. I see it is being offered on pay-for-view, so plan to watch it soon.

I think it would be to Moore's credit that he didn't edit out his "badgering"?

kat

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 04:06 PM

I got from the film that Moore claims that the major cause of gun popularity in the US is a climate and culture of fear.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 04:10 PM

Rick my Dad and most of his his pals have 5-10 guns each He, for example, has 2 rifles for moose, seal and caribou hunting, (depending on the licence) and 3 shotguns; a 410 for rabbits a pump action and a gas powered "automatic" for "bird" hunting. of those 7 million guns in Canada Moore talked about I wouldn't be surprised if 1/2 million were in Newfoundland almost all long guns almost all for hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 04:13 PM

"a climate and culture of fear" and " the institutionalized poverty that is a result of American capitalism" are two sides of the same coin perhaps?

I suspect that, for most people, fear is a more important driving force in this kind of system than greed. More people slave their guts out because they are scared of being poor than do the same thing in the expectation of getting rich. I suspect that the same applies for most criminal activity.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 04:18 PM

I'm sorry if I misspoke (wrote)

I was joking about proving "his contention that" the incident was caused by bowling. That was one of the first points he made that it was impossible to blame the incident on one single thing.

I tried to make the point that he was trying to start a dialog. I made a typo. and Kat thank you for more clearly restating my point about the badgering. If he was just trying to make Heston look bad he'd have cut that out and just shown Heston's understandibly flustered response.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 04:22 PM

I don't think anyone HAS to make Heston look bad... I think he does that well enough on his own...

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 04:22 PM

oh boy the old climate and culture of perpetual fear thing again. I don't know doo about guns or the NRA but I do know that Heston cannot be punished enough for his role in Touch of Evil.

Subject: harpgirl warns all Southern squirrels!!!!
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 04:36 PM

If I catch any more squirrels knawing on my garage doors I'M GOING TO GET A BB GUN AND LEARN TO USE IT!
Love, harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: open mike
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 07:34 PM

yes i see that this movie is available now from satelite dish..
if you have one, check it out....great conversation piece.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 08:23 PM

I think by "fear-based" culture, Moore was referring more to fear of strangers, fear of one's neighbours, fear of crime, fear of the unknown, the unexpected, etc. than fear of poverty. But I do think that fear of poverty can be added to his list, especially these days.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 09:43 PM

Yer right about the number of guns in Newfoundland Jack. My guess is there ain't many murders though. Any idea on statistics?

Rick (Who bloody well DOES lock his door with all those Martins and Gibsons kicking around!)

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 10:27 PM

Better add fear of Muslims, fear of Arabs, fear of "terrorists".....
we're getting back to the paranoia of Commies under every bed.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 10:42 PM

JtS, yer welcome...wasn't sure if that was what you meant.:-) Nice to see you around, too.

Here's another thought, how about fear from poverty, i.e. the fear that poverty brings...fear of not enough to feed your family, take them to the doctor, get an education with which to maybe get a better job, if any job...all of which can lead people to do some mighty strange things, including take desperate measures. This kind of fear can also foster high emotions with no safety valves of community/familial support.

Rick, I'll bet even if we could find the stats, they've be different according to the source!

Just a thought,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 11:07 PM

I just watched this movie the other day...and enjoyed it very much....though I think the most powerful parts were the interviews with those who were there....like in the special feature when he was talking to that girl...and she broke down and cried....

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 11:35 PM

The one that got to me was the principal of the school in which the little girl was shot by a 6-year-old boy. No one -- NO ONE -- should ever, ever have to deal with that, and have that memory for the rest of her life.

I live in Canada, and of course, American news is well-known here. Every time a gun-related incident, or massacre, or bell-tower shooting takes place, someone (usually a politician) comes on and asks how such a tragedy could take place in America. My husband and I, in unison, yell "It's the guns, stupid!"

It's so damned obvious, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 11:49 PM

Damned good movie... I'm heading to the pub to chew it a bit...

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: LadyJean
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 11:52 PM

I have cleaned for half a dozen people here in Pittsburgh who left the door unlocked for me to clean while they were out. Admittedly the one lady I work for who does this now has a dog the size of a shetland pony.
After I surprised a burglar in my hall I became downright paranoid about locking my back door. I forgot to lock it that night, and that's how he got in. I also bought a can of pepper spray. If I'd had it that night, I could have dealt with the creep. (MY then housemate chased him out walloping him with a leather jacket. Don was stark naked at the time.)
The little gangstas in my neighborhood have been shooting at each other all summer. I'm scared witless of them, thank you, but a gun wouldn't do me any good. Anyone know where I can get a bullet proof vest? I'd also need two for my cats.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 06:15 AM

My own view is that the US has a "violence problem" rather than a "gun problem". It is well documented that there are many countries in the world where gun-ownership is of a similar level to the US but where the incidence of killings and woundings by firearms are very much lower.

I live in England in a legal environment where it is probably more difficult to legally own a gun than almost anywhere in the world. However I don't believe the AVAILABILITY of firearms is significantly less than in most other countries. If you have the money it's very easy to get possession of almost any firearm you like. The Irish experience shows that if you want to you can get assault rifles, machine guns, whatever you want. Shootings are very much on the rise here too, but from a much lower level.

I think the whole concept of US gun control is a redundant topic for discussion and Americans should get realistic about that fact. Even if there was the political will (and there isn't) how could you possibly get the guns off the people who have them now and how could you stop new guns getting in? The drugs prohibition debacle shows that it is not possible to prohibit a commodity for which there is a demand.

Aside from this, even if it were possible I think Americans would just knife each other or hit each other with baseball bats to a similar level of mortality as exists today.

Unfortunately the US has become a society where life is quite literally "cheap". There are huge belts of absolute poverty the like of which simply does not exist in any other developed world nation, neither in its depth nor its breadth. Another point to note is that there is now significantly LESS social mobility (people rising up the income ladder by work, education etc.) than in Europe. There are 20 million Americans who have abandoned all hope and as civilisation has abandoned them, so they have abandoned civilisation.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 01:31 PM

When I was in Newfoundland the murder rate was one or two a year and the murder rate by gun was almost non existant. I actually cannot recall one incident in my 31 years on the island. There was some gun violence. As a matter of fact, my cousin's husband shot up my uncle's house and the window of an RCMP cruiser. He was very angry and "acting out". Another time an RCMP officer had to shoot a young man who waved a 22 at a crowd of people (the gun was unloaded and didn't have a bolt but it was dark)There are hunting accidents, but may more have died from exposure to the elements than to lead. I can see why the Canadian authorities want to limit the number of guns out there and to ensure that they are being stored responsibly.

Clinton I'm inclined to agree about Heston. There is no room in civilized discourse for "You have to pry this gun from my cold dead hands."

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 01:45 PM

Meanwhile, yet another kid in the USA has "shot up" in school. He is now in critical condition after being shot by a SWAT team, but no one else was hurt. What's that old saying...violence begets violence...

kat

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 02:09 PM

"You have to pry this gun from my cold dead hands."

If that was him volunteering to lay down and die, I'd accept that offer in a heart-beat! He'll die soon enough... not that it'll matter... some other nutter will come along and take his place, and maybe even be more of a zealot, more insensitive than CH was...

KL... I don't get yer point? Are you saying the police shouldn't have shot him???   Cause taking into consideration the volatile nature of the teenage brain, this young man needed help... And it's unfortunate he didn't get the the help he needed before this... but when he CHOSE to brandish a gun in a classroom full of his fellow kids, he needed to be taken down!

"but no one else was hurt"

That's the most important point...

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 02:32 PM

It is somewhat of a cycle here. In many places the police are under paid, under trained and nervous. Makes the perps jumpy, wihich makes the police quicker to shoot. I'm not saying it happens everwhere But I have to admire the cops. I would put my body between a gun and the public for $10/hour.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 02:42 PM

"In many places the police are under paid, under trained and nervous."

In his stand up show "Victory Begins At Home" Bill Maher made up some propaganda posters like were seen in WW 1&2... one of them depicted firemen, cops teachers and the caption read...

"You call the your heroes, but you pay them like chumps"

Apparently they can be found in his book "When You Ride Alone You Ride With Bin-ladden"

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 02:51 PM

I also watched the new DVD a couple of weeks ago. I thought Moore did a great job with it. We plan to see it again soon.

I’ve long thought that the availability of guns was responsible for much of the gun violence in the U.S. but more and more I’m coming to the view that the biggest problem is really the culture of the U.S. and the don’t-tread-on-me chip-on-the-shoulder attitude that is so pervasive in our society.

The killings at Columbine High School weren’t the result of guns lying about peoples homes, the weapons were purchased at a gun show by friends of the killers who met the legal requirements for their purchase. The masacre was at least a year in the planning and happened in spite of the fact that the authorities had been warned about the killers’ intentions and those records kept on file.

For more insight into the events at Columbine, I recommend No Easy Answers: The Truth Behind Death at Columbine by Brooks Brown and Rob Merritt. Brooks Brown was a student at Columbine and a self-described friend of the two boys who did the killing. Rob Merritt is a journalist and happens also to be a friend of ours. Their book details the history of the two killers and their families and the general brutality that was meted out at Columbine by the jocks and their circle of friends against those students who, by dress or interests, didn’t conform. Though, as their title suggests, Brown and Merritt don’t provide any easy answers, they do provide a great deal of insight into the killers’ motivations and suggest some policies that might have prevented those killings and perhaps many others that either have or may happen. If you decide to purchase this book, the link I provided will credit Mudcat.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 03:00 PM

I haven't yet seen the movie so cannot contribute, but here is a lengthy critique, for your review and consideration, of Moore's alleged editing practices:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 03:21 PM

Ya... and people have critizied the pictures taken of the moon landing trying to disprove that too...

It strikes me that whoever wrote the above web critique knows precious little about the art of film making...

I elect to dismiss it....

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 04:06 PM

I read the critique. I would say that the guy underestimates Moore and overestimates himself. His only valid point is that Moore edited speeches and such to reinforce his points. Here's some NEWS David, that's what filmakers do for a living. It isn't Moore's job to supply us with the raw footage.

FACT: the film is in the public eye and popular. FACT: Lockheed Martin and Charlton Heston and the NRA would win quite a bit of money in court if they can prove that Moore lied.
Fact: Documentary Filmakers voted to give Mr. Moore that oscar
Fact: those film makers know a lot more about Filmaking than David T. Hardy.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 05:47 PM

CH, sorry I wasn't clear. I just was sad that a violent response to violence was necessary and I don't mean just the police, possibly the young man was responding to violence, too, who knows? I've seen tv programs which talk about the tech advances in non-lethal intervention, some of them pretty sophisticated, and I was just wishing the cops had had those available to them, instead of having to use their weapons. I in no way meant they were not justified according to what I've read in early news reports.

It was more of a comment about our society in general. As you and others have said, the kids at Columbine and obviously this kid, all needed help and didn't get it. It's just depressing to see this happen again and again, ya know?

Thanks, Mark, for the link to that book.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 05:54 PM

O.k.. gotcha KL... read ya 5 by 5...

Non lethal stuff for the cops is a neat idea, but as long as the bad guys are running around with LETHAL weapons I want the cops to have lethal weapons too...

In this situation, yes, I think it's unfortunate that this kid didn't get help, but ya.. like you said... according to the news so far, it sounds like a justifiable shoot... and in that case, I'm glad they dropped him before he was able to hurt anyone else...

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Nenana
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 07:04 PM

I don't think Moore was addressing poverty as an issue in this piece; he was addressing "middle" America that is fed by the media every night a large heaping bucket full of gory stories on the ten o'clock news.
I am living by American standards at poverty level and have lived in my truck in West Virginia, California, and Alaska and let me tell you Alaska was a whole lot less scary with all of its Guns, and Bears, and Men (The men aren't really scary at all just hairy, and I am not complaining)… because, I believe there is a lot more N.P.R. and not so much television.
   
             Erin

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 09:28 AM

The television news, and cops does make the country look like a war zone. "The culture of fear" idea does have some merit.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Peg
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 12:01 PM

One problem is, guns are very FAST in their effects. One could use a knife, a baseball bat, or a rock to exercise (or exorcise) their anger and fear and frustration, but it would   take a lot longer to kill as many people   as you can with a gun in a very short period of time. That is why, responsible ownership notwithstanding, there needs to be tighter restrictions and legislation making sure gun-owners know what the hell they're doing. Kids having access to guns while at the same time not knowing how to handle them safely is completely unacceptable; this is the fault of irresonsible gun owners. Hiding them in the drawer obviously isn't working.
Semi-automatic weapons should be illegal, period, to anyone outside law enforcement or military contexts.

I can't wait to see what Moore does with his next docu, Fahrenheit 911.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 12:29 PM

The other problem with guns is that you are not up close and actually involved, as you would be with a knife, for instance. There is something to be said for distance: I believe it tends to render the killing more impersonal. It certainly makes it easier.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 01:20 PM

And if you are close enough to someone to stab them, there's a chance they might be able to fight back. A gun, at bottom, is a coward's weapon, most especially when it's used against someone without a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:33 PM

There's an old Klingon proverb...
"A thousand throats may be slit in one night, by a running man"

Or as I'm fond of saying...
"Dead is dead, not matter how big the hole is"

Which I think might be sort of the thinking towards the "Culture Of Violence" end of BFC... It really isn't the fault of the weapon... but more rather the culture that glorifies the USE of weapons on ones fellow human beings...

" Semi-automatic weapons should be illegal, period, to anyone outside law enforcement or military contexts."
You sure as hell got my vote there Peg!

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:43 PM

Old Romulian Rebutal
"Only if they stay still."

:D

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:50 PM

Maybe if the would be tough guys could start thinking in terms of the Klingon Bat'leth as a status symbol rather than Uzis, we'd be getting somewhere. "Guns are for wimps!"

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,Klingoff
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:05 PM

re:" Semi-automatic weapons should be illegal, period, to anyone outside law enforcement or military contexts."- PEG

Can you find the ignorance in this statement without someone explaining it???

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:17 PM

Sure, Klingoff -- you're going to trot out the old argument that if a weapon is illegal, only crooks will own one, and upstanding citizens won't be able to defend themselves.

Statistics prove you wrong, however.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:54 PM

Frankly, very few Americans truly gives a shit about school shootings.
What used to be a guaranteed headline and CNN all day story, is now passe. No one cares.

If you think this is bullshit, can you tell me where today's school shooting occurred? No? Well, that is because CNN hasn't picked up the story that occurred nearly four hours ago. Probably because not enough kids were shot to make the story sexy.

Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:03 PM

Now if the people who make most items of modern equipment only made the guns, the problem of all those old guns out in circulation would be a lot less troubling. As soon as the warranty ran out, they'd start falling to pieces.

Where's "built-in obsolescence" when you need it?