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BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'

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Raptor 24 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM
Strick 24 Mar 04 - 02:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM
Raptor 24 Mar 04 - 07:59 PM
Strick 24 Mar 04 - 08:27 PM
Strick 24 Mar 04 - 08:35 PM
Raptor 24 Mar 04 - 08:52 PM
Strick 24 Mar 04 - 09:01 PM
Little Hawk 24 Mar 04 - 09:09 PM
Raptor 24 Mar 04 - 09:12 PM
Strick 24 Mar 04 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,pdc 24 Mar 04 - 09:31 PM
Little Hawk 24 Mar 04 - 10:26 PM
Strick 24 Mar 04 - 10:29 PM
Raptor 25 Mar 04 - 07:31 AM
Strick 25 Mar 04 - 08:56 AM
Little Hawk 25 Mar 04 - 11:20 AM
Strick 25 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Raptor
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM

Yeah, You're right. Moore Took true facts and reported them in a untimely fashion and not in a chronilogical order so he must be a liar! And George Bush is not a fair target for documentairy authors or filmmakers!

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:54 PM

Raptor, make a movie about anyone you want. Moore's misrepresentations are more than chronological as that link and the links it contains show. I will admit in several of the cases, he's not really lying, he's just guilty of not bothering to check his facts. Come to think of it, that sloppiness is just another reason to not believe much of what he says unless you check it independently.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM

"...not believe much of what he says unless you check it independently."

That's a very sensible attitude to take - most especially when you are dealing with much of the mainstream media.

............................

..."Low income poverty people in the US own cars, VCR.s, cell phones, air conditioners, and televisions. They probably would be considered wealthy in most parts of the world"...

I always like what William Morris wrote after he visited Iceland, and had his eyes opened to a society which, though poor, had far greater social equality than his native England:

"...the most grinding poverty is a trifling evil compared with the inequality of classes"...


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Raptor
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:59 PM

Strick You are correct about independantly checking facts. That is wise but, I think wheather the kids went bowling or skipped that class or wheather Moore said they Bowled or he just showed a girl who said they bowled is missing the point that Moore made! You can't blame the Music they listened to any more than the fact that they participated in bowling!

The point that music = gun violence is about as sensable as
Bowling = Gun violence

Quibling about wheather the kids bowled that very day seems to miss the whole point.

Triing to discredit moore as a liar because of a few points that are small and insinificant is petty!

The fact is guns killed these kids at this school and that is bad!

If Moore said they had shreadies for breakfast when they actualy had Corn Flakes the kids still died and that is still bad!

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:27 PM

I really didn't care whether they went bowling or not (though that sorta short cicuits the movie title, doesn't it? that's not a trivial mistake).

You may not have read the Spinsanity article but here are some the things that are wrong in the movie:

The bit about getting the gun at the bank was staged, it didn't happen
The US never gave aid to the Taliban, humanitarian aid was given to the UN that went to Afghanistan
The Lockheed Martin plant satellites vehicles not "weapons of mass destruction" (they made ICBMs until 60s, the last of which was taken out of service in 1984, a little before Moore's movie)
He edited Heston's Denver speech to misrepresent when it took place and what he said
He agumented the Eddie Horton ad to make it look more racist

Do you think I'm talking about whether they really had shreadies for breakfast?

To quote Spinsanity:

"When the most popular documentary of the year is riddled with blatant lies and distortions, it's a cause for concern. When the film is part of a pattern by one of the nation's most prominent political celebrities, it's disturbing. And when the media gives Michael Moore free reign to spread his lies and distortions with very little critical analysis, it's a sad comment on our democracy."

Some of this might be plain sloppiness; some of it look malicious. It's a funny movie, but I so is Space Balls. I wouldn't use that as a source for facts to support social change either.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:35 PM

"The Lockheed Martin plant satellites vehicles not "weapons of mass destruction" (they made ICBMs until 60s, the last of which was taken out of service in 1984, a little before Moore's movie)"

Read that:

"The Lockheed Martin plant makes satellites vehicles not "weapons of mass destruction" (they made ICBMs until 60s, the last of which was taken out of service in 1984, a little before Moore's movie)"

Dang multi-tasking.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Raptor
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:52 PM

Kids still died and its still bad! Thats the point!

I don't care how Heston said his speech. KIDS DIED! Guns are Bad!

The fact that you can get a gun from a bank is fucked. Wheather you have to wait or it comes loaded instantly is not the issue, the issue is that KIDS DIED Moore did not make that up!

Strick I hope you never loose a loved one! Or loose your job cause some rich prick can make more money from Mexican labour! Or have to go on welfare to feed your family and not see them cause all your time is taken up going to some job 50 miles away from your run down home!

Mike Moore is adressing these issues while Your Government is Not!

If you listen to the Bush Regime you will find that Moore lied about all of thier truths! Such as Weapons of Mass Destruction!

Mike Moore has the Balls to stand up to the things he finds wrong in todays society. I applaud him for that!

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:01 PM

Gracious, Raptor, all I said was that Moore either made a comedy you shouldn't rely on or a documentary you can't rely on. Twisting the facts won't bring those kids back, nor will twisting the facts make anyone more against psychopathic kids taking guns to school that they already are. It just makes people who try to use it seriously to convince others look stupid.

Here's the difference. Ever seen The Oxbow Incident? Pure fiction, but one of the most compelling arguments against mob justice ever made. That I might have respected. Not this.

BTW, what the hell did this have to do with any of that other crap? You say Bush lies, but I'm supposed to listen to Moore inspite of the fact he does too?

It'll be someone from China or India that takes my job, though I suspect I know how to prevent that from ever happening. I might get fired for hanging around here, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:09 PM

Have to agree with both Raptor and Strick here...

Yes, Michael Moore monkeyed around with the facts in order to make a more effective anti-gun film...

And, yes, the points Michael Moore made in the film were very good ones in that they exposed some of the ugly underbelly of North American society, which is a society that tends to encourage gun worship in a number of ways...for what? To make money, that's for what.

The film was rather unfair to many gun owners...but it was a valuable statement at the same time, and a wake-up call to American society.

Take a look at all the "shooter" games that are being marketed to kids these days, and you will see that there is something very sick going on out there...and it's all for a lousy buck.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Raptor
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:12 PM

I say Bush lies?

Don't you think he does?

Saying there is weapons of mass Destruction to justify a war to divert attention from Enron or whatever else was going on and leading the brits into it too is a big lie!(read a newspaper)

Letting Charelton Heston make an ass of himself but not putting the Whole speach in to his movie is not a lie!


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:23 PM

Look, Raptor, there's an easy way to say what I mean. I regret I didn't say the first time. Why make up all that crap and stage the things he did? The truth was powerful enough. All Moore did was discredit himself.

The deal with Heston was more complicated than that. Quotes would have been OK. Moore rearranged the quotes he used and set it up to make it look as if some of it happened right after the attack when it didn't.

I didn't say you said anything, just pulled together the arguments I read every day here and laid them side by side.

Let's not start on Enron unless you can prove that anyone at the Bush Administration did anything to help them (Ken Lay's indictment will happen in the next 8 months, Skilling needs to turn over on him) or that some how Bush was responsible for corporate fraud took place before he was elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:31 PM

A quote from upthread: "Low income poverty people in the US own cars, VCR.s, cell phones, air conditioners, and televisions."

Unless you can provide evidence for that claim, it must stand as a complete fabrication, exaggeration, or utter b.s.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:26 PM

As someone else noted...the greatest injustice is not poverty, but massive inequality. It is that which sparks both crime and violent revolution. When people are all in the same boat together, they should have the sense to share on a relatively equal basis. That's what Captain Bligh did after being cast off in a longboat with about a dozen other desperate men, and he got almost all of them alive to Australia, against all odds. Without sharing equally they would never have made it.

The people in a society are also in one boat together, traveling across dangerous waters, and the same principles apply. A relatively even level of material equality in the basics of life (food, drink, shelter, medical care, and other necessities) is the foundation of both liberty and justice in a decent society.

The rich few who run your society DON'T want you to know that...or even think about it.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:29 PM

"That's what Captain Bligh did after being cast off in a longboat with about a dozen other desperate men..."

But, dude, what he did to get put in that boat! ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Raptor
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:31 AM

Strick I must admit to not knowing enough about Enron to discuss it without talking out my ass, Sorry I brought it up!

I believe we must agree to disagree when it comes to what constitutes a liar in a filmaker or a president!

Good day to you sir!

Respectfully Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Strick
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:56 AM

Sorry, Raptor, someone warned me I'd get cranky if I stayed here too long.

I repeat myself too often, but...

It was Columbine. The truth was powerful enough. Maniuplating it just discredited the more important message in too many eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:20 AM

Strick - I figured someone would say that. :-) What did Bligh do?

Well....one of two things:

1. the fictional version (a la Nordhoff & Hall) - he brutally tyrranized the crew until they mutinied...VERY unequal treatment.

2. the more probable real version - he was a "by the book", somewhat stuffy, but not unusually severe commander who had the bad luck to expose his crew to a sailor's paradise in Tahiti, complete with lazy days, nubile and totally willing native girls, great food, and a wonderful climate...and then he set out on a long voyage away from said paradise...and his sailors decided they'd rather go back to paradise, thank you very much!

The point is, Bligh learned from that experience, and he practiced equality (coupled with good discipline and chain of command) when marooned in the longboat. A good leader is always willing to endure the same privations that his men must endure.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: RE-visiting 'Bowling for Columbine'
From: Strick
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM

Little Hawk, the things that might (I say only might) count against that version of the Bounty story are that:

1. "By the book" in those time included severe floggings (up to 500 strokes), keel hauling, and hanging for minor offenses.

2. At best ships on that kind of journey were extremely uncomfortable and often near the verge of starvation. Scurvy and beri-beri from the lack of fresh food, 12 month old salt pork or beef kept in wooden barrels, weavil ridden hardtack (always choose the lessor of two weavils) made the conditions near muntiny at the best of times.

3. As soon as Bligh was reinstated he was shipped to the Botony Bay as governor colony where they promptly mutinied.

Bligh might have gotten hard duty made harder by a bad rap or he might just have been a right hard bastard or both.


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