? Meaning of Skint in songs?

Subject: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:17 PM

There are 2 sea songs where the word 'skint' is used.
1.Roller Boller (Good Morning Ladies All) has the lines

"But when she found that I was 'skint'

She left me standing there"

2.Serafina has the lines

"For I was skint, me cloth was gone & so was Serafina

She'd done me brown, she'd sunk me down, that dirty she-hyena"

Both are in Hugill's 'Shanties From the 7 Seas.

Does anyone have any explanation as to what SKINT might mean.

Thanks, Barry

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:21 PM

broke - out of cash - pockets to let - poor

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:22 PM

Skint has two overlapping meanings, broke (no cash) and skinned- bare, broke, lost some skin.
Dictionary says chiefly British, but it is common in USA and Canada.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:24 PM

Wow, you 2 are fast. Thanks

Barry

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: running.hare
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:31 PM

Well it's a fairy common part of Brit vocab.

I myself am very aware of its meaning right now ;)

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:34 PM

Rhyming slang =Pink (pink lint for those old enough to remember such stuff)

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 07:07 PM

Or boracic

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 07:42 PM

skint = skinned - a more extreme version of having lost your shirt, which means you haven't a brass farthing.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: allanwill
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 08:23 PM

"I ain't broke, but I'm badly bent"

Allan

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 05:45 AM

The word "Skint" is used quite often in every day conversation on this side of the "pond".

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: JennyO
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:40 AM

Near the beginning of "My Old Man's a Dustman", the line goes -
"My old man don't earn much, in fact he's flippin' skint."

I've always understood it to mean "broke".

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:53 AM

Americans really don't say "skint"? Strewth!

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: mooman
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:57 AM

It's generally believed to come from Cockney rhyming slang.

Guest is right above..."skint" is rhyming slang from "boracic lint", e.g "I carn't come dahn the boozer 'cos I'm boracic"

Peace

moo (from within the sound of Bow bells)

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:01 AM

My favourite bit of rhyming slang is the phrase:
"I'm a bit boracic (boracic lint = skint) at the moment can you sausage (sausage & mash = cash) me a gregory (Gregory Peck = Cheque)"

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: mooman
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:11 AM

In fact McGrath is right and "boracic" comes from "skint"...

Peace

moo (not thinking clearly and a bit Kerry Packered from Captain Kirking)

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:18 AM

Moo - glad to see you have embraced Manitas' native tongue so keenly.

LTS

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: mooman
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:25 AM

May have been in Sproutland 12 years Liz but still remember my growing up days well!

Peace,

moo

P.S. Would you like a piccie of the now (sadly) departed Virago?!!!

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:50 PM

skint is still in fairly common usage in Australia,

well I can't vouch for those later than the Baby Boomers...

Robin

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:32 AM

The song "Poverty Knock" has the line, "The gaffer's too skinty to pay." I've always assumed that this meant he was a pennypincher, that it was a derivative of "skinflint." Does it just mean "skint", i.e., "broke"? Or is "skinty" a different word with a different connection to "skint"?

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Anglo
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:19 PM

The word in Poverty Knock is "skinny" meaning "skinflint," quite different from skint . Skint is not having money, Skinny is not giving it away. Interestingly enough, Ian Robb has pointed out that you might explain this meaning of "skinny" to American audiences unfamiliar with the word, but then in the last verse up it pops again in its other meaning of "thin." (Well, I think that's interesting anyway…)

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 08:21 PM

Skint first appeared in "Soldier and Sailor Words," by Fraser and Gibbons. Later, it was noted in Cockney speech. OED

Subject: Lyr add: alternate version of Poverty Knock
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 03:27 AM

Thanks, Anglo...so "skinny" had been folk-processed to "skinty," but it's good to know I had the meaning and derivation right.

[Thread creep alert] Speaking of folk processing, the words in the DT for Poverty Knock seem to be a bit worse for wear. There's an interesting thread about the song here, that indicates it was written by a Yorkshire weaver named Tom Daniel. (I'd always thought it was by Cyril Tawney!) The words in the thread may be close to the original (and they include a verse I never learned), though there are some differences from the way I learned it from Mary Benson in Portland, Oregon. Here's Mary's version, which I think flows a little better:

POVERTY KNOCK
by Tom Daniel

Up every morning at five
It's a wonder that we stays alive
A-weary and yawnin', we're up before dawnin'
And back to that dreary old drive

CHORUS
Poverty, poverty knock
Me loom it is sayin' all day
Poverty, poverty knock
The gaffer's too skinny to pay
Poverty, poverty knock
With always one eye on the clock
I know I can guttle when I hear me shuttle
Go poverty, poverty knock

Oh, dear, we're going to be late
And the gaffer he stands at the gate
Our wages he'll dock it
We'll be out of pocket
We'll have to get grub on the slate

CHORUS

Sometimes a shuttle flies out
And gives some poor woman a clout
While she lies there bleedin'
There's nobody heedin'
And no one to carry her out

CHORUS

The tuner should see to me loom
But we'll never get him to come
He's always too busy
A-courtin' our Lizzie
And he always sits on his bum

CHORUS

Our Lizzie's so easily led
And we think that he takes her to bed
She used to be skinny
Now look at her pinny
I think it's high time they were wed

CHORUS


Aloha,
Mark

PS, I've always assumed "guttle" meant "eat" -- is that right?

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 12:23 PM

"Boracic" is pronounced "brassic", BTW. Well, it is where I come from.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 01:03 PM

Another fine old word- ruint.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 01:17 PM

in Scotland the rhyming slang is Brassie lint (Skint)

or some parts of Scotland anyway

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 01:24 PM

Ah-ha! So that's where the expression "I'm brassy" comes from (i.e. I'm broke). By gore you get your money's worth on this forum ...

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 07:33 PM

Thanks everybody. I had no idea it's such a common term. Over hear in the US I've never heard the word used. I just assumed that because I couldn't find it & never heard it & that it was in a few old songs that it fell into disuse.


Hi Anglo, "Skinny" has, or used to have, a different meaning here. "What's the skinny?" used to mean the same as "what's happening". Used to hear it much more from the 50's to the 70's/80's (it may go back further than that but I wasn't in this world at the time so I don't know). It was very much inner city slang if I remember correctly.

Thanks again all.

Barry

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST,Jeger
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 02:28 PM

I have heard "I'll give you the skinny" (on something) to mean that 'I will give you all the details.' It can be anything from a business plan to juicy gossip. Both of my friends who use this expression are originally from the South West US.
Isn't "t" often used instead of "ed" in the UK, ie learnt instead of learned ? Thus skint would be skinned. Perhaps the root of this could also be scant.
Then we might say
"He could not give me the skinny on the situation because he only had scant details."

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:29 AM

Skint is an old Northern English slang expression (probably Yorkshire or Lancashire) meaning to have no money. Interestingly the cockney rhyming slang equivalent is 'borasic' as in 'borasic lint', a late 19th/early 20th century medical product. Borasic lint = skint.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Anglo
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:56 AM

And if you'd actually read the thread, guest, where the question was answered, you'd know how to spell "boracic."

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:06 PM

Time to go skinny-dipping.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST,Norcsalordie
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:16 PM

Our version of Poverty Knock

Poverty Knock

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:05 PM

"Isn't "t" often used instead of "ed" in the UK, ie learnt instead of learned ? Thus skint would be skinned. Perhaps the root of this could also be scant."
Not really, in UK english 'learnt' is the past tense of "to learn", 'learned' is used to mean 'well educated', as in 'the learned gentleman', and is pronounced as two syllables, learn-ed.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Rowan
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:28 PM

and is pronounced as two syllables, learn-ed.

Much like oft and often.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: s&r
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:42 PM

In my UK English Nigel, learned and learnt are alternative past tenses.
Either is correct. Archaically the two syllable 'learned' is used as you say.

Stu

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:54 PM

My recollection of the phrase in "Poverty Knock" is "Gaffers's too stingy to pay" i.e. mean.

Regards

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:25 PM

Since there's only one traditional source for 'Poverty Knock(s)' (Tommy Daniel of Batley) it's easy to confirm that the word is indeed 'skinny', though it became enormously popular in the folk clubs and has since been altered in various particulars, whether deliberately or through mis-hearing.

Whether Tommy remembered the whole thing from the old days or whether he re-made it to some extent has been a subject for debate at times, I think. I expect that has all been mentioned in other discussions here. See the Yorkshire Garland website for further detail:

Poverty Knocks

Although the recording there is a revival interpretation rather than Tommy's own,, it was learned directly from him and is sung at the appropriate pace. I've never understood the tendency of some people to take it at enormous speed or turn it into a happy-clappy singalong thing. The 'Norcsalordie' arrangement mentioned a little earlier is a particularly tastleless example of the former; their voices can barely keep up with their frenetic strumming. A powerful song cheapened to the point of parody.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:00 PM

Looking at the first post, one wonders how "Poverty Knocks" got such a play here.

"Skint" is heard in America, meaning penniless. Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. It is noted that it is chiefly British, however.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:50 AM

Mark Cohen, the first time that I heard 'Poverty Knock' I heard the word in the chorus to be 'go til', 'go' in the North and Midlands is often pronounced 'guh' as in "I'll have tuh guh tuh skool terday."

I have heard various explanations of 'guttle' but 'go until' makes the most sense to me. But I'm not a mill-worker.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Anglo
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:45 AM

"Guttle" is the opposite of "clem."

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:53 AM

Malcolm - agreed; in some hands 'poverty knock' sounds about as meaningful as 'bibity bobity boo', particularly after the third or fourth chorus. I heard Jim Moray do PK once; he slowed it right down and played it in a minor key for good measure. Perhaps that's going too far the other way, but it made you listen.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:26 AM

Stu:
"In my UK English Nigel, learned and learnt are alternative past tenses.
Either is correct. Archaically the two syllable 'learned' is used as you say."

I don't think I'm being archaic. If you look up 'learn' on Google & take the dictionary option it may give both learnt & learned without giving specifics. If you Google 'learned' the same actions give a more precise description of 'learned' as an adjective.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST,Norcsalordie
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:30 AM

When we perform Poverty Knocks it is our intention to sing it at the pace of the looms and to reflect the sound of the mill. We take it as onomatopoeic and if the looms went 'bibity bobity boo' then we've done what we set out to do - it is not an accident. If the looms did not go 'bibity bobity boo' then we've missed our mark but it has been a serious attempt to interpret the song

If you think Paul is struggling to keep up then you have never heard him sing Mary Mack, Passage of Time, Sheffield Grinder or others

We do not sing music to slit your wrists by - there are enough people out there already doing that - we are a lively young band and I refer you to the Folkmob website Folkmob discussion and messages pages and the comments made after our appearance there on 15 October. Also the comment made by one of the floor singers "I've never seen so many smiling faces in a Folk Club". That's our style - if you come to see Norcsalordie you have to be prepared to come away happy

If you want a truly inappropriate version of Poverty Knocks then listen to the Chumbawumba version on youtube

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:26 AM

if you come to see Norcsalordie you have to be prepared to come away happy

Shame!

Seriously, I think PK is a pretty miserable song (with a dash of humour) about some pretty miserable conditions - and, if the version on the YG site is anything to go by, it ought to be sung pretty miserably.

(As for Chumbawamba, they appear to have turned into the Flying Pickets on that track. Not good.)

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST,Girl Friday sans cookie
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:08 AM

I can't even countenance listening to the Chumbawumba version. However as a fan of Norcsalordie I do need to make a point here.
The boys don't sing songs as the purists want them sung. They sing songs with enthusiasm ! If everybody sang exactly the same version at the same pace (slowly), we'd all be slitting our wrists, and there'd be no-one to go to folk clubs.There is room in the world of folk music for us all to sing songs in the manner that we feel suits them. Norcs cite the speed of the loom as justification. Having heard a machine loom going at full tilt on the Radio Ballads Programme and several programmes on the History Channel, I can understand where they're coming from. Also, did they not have to be fast because they were on piecework?

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:37 AM

If everybody sang exactly the same version at the same pace (slowly), we'd all be slitting our wrists

Alternatively, people who want to sing fast & upbeat songs could choose fast & upbeat songs to sing.

Norcs cite the speed of the loom as justification.

That Yorkshire Garland page cites the stated intentions of the guy who wrote (/rewrote/popularised) the song. I think they win.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST,Norcsalordie
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:46 AM

"I heard Jim Moray do PK once; he slowed it right down and played it in a minor key for good measure. Perhaps that's going too far the other way,"

Either he played it in the way that the Yorkshire Garland pages say we should or he was as wrong as we are - you can't have it both ways ie slow down ok, speed up wrong.

Is what you are saying that there should be no interpretations of a song beyond that of the person who wrote, rewrote or popularised it? and if he rewrote it he was wrong as well.

Also is it not possible (whether it is likely or not) that by our interpretation we can popularise the song beyond its current standing? Or to put that less pretentiously - that someone could reinterpret a song in such a way that the revision becomes the standard.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM

Is what you are saying that there should be no interpretations of a song beyond that of the person who wrote, rewrote or popularised it?

Is that a rhetorical question?

What I'm saying is that some songs are slow and reflective while others are lively and upbeat, and that doing a lively, upbeat version of a slow, reflective song may not be the best way to go. And, er, that's it.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST,Norcsalordie
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

PR - it has been an interesting discussion with you and we have been pleased to hear your views.

We have been considerably off topic but did feel that we needed to counter the original criticisms of our performance with an explanation of what we are trying to do

If you are able to make it to one of our gigs - all dates on the website, please introduce yourself and we hope that you will enjoy the evening as much as the good people of Folkmob

Forthcoming gigs

all the best
Norcsalordie

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

Fairy Nuff. I'll look forward to making your acquaintance.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:37 AM

Please accept this at face value - there is no criticism here

I have visited the website of the Yorkshire Garland and I have seen the Norcsalordie website. I have seen pictures of the Yorkshire Garland committee and I have seen pictures of Norcsalordie

Both of them are to my mind doing sterling work, but if they were to agree on everything I would be worried. Folk music is not dead and it is for the young to take what they find, use it, experiment with it, change it and add to it to create the world of the future. That world will not be the same as this one but folk music will still be there because of the likes of Norcsalordie

Did we believe Bob Dylan when he sang The Times They Are A'Changing?

And perhaps the Yorkshire Garland committee like the Norcsalordie version?

This is also off topic but a thread is just that and not necessarily a straight line

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: s&r
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:42 AM

Nigel

I always refer to my dictionaries. OED and Collins give learned as preferred past tense, learnt as alternative; learned as adjective is single syllable in OED two syllable in Collins.

Perhaps archaic is ott; I always think the legal usage is archaic by its nature

Stu

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Girl Friday
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:34 PM

Off topic but re Trevor. He had a bad heart attack on Monday morning, it ptobably started Sunday afternoon . Swift treatment at Kings. No more fags and no driving for a month.

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM

Sue - that's awful - wish him well from me and the Norcs

thinking of you both

RB
x

Subject: RE: ? Meaning of Skint in songs?
From: Girl Friday
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:32 PM

coming home to me tomorrow.