Emotion 'junkies'

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 08:17 PM

Joybell what planet do you come from....Macoll and Bogle dont belong in the "folk culture"????Have I been missing something for the last 60 yrs. When I was a young folkie the clubs were full of Macoll songs.

Subject: Lyr Add: DADDY WHAT DID YOU DO IN THE STRIKE
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 08:03 PM

This song has been posted before. But, once more with feeling!



DADDY WHAT DID YOU DO IN THE STRIKE
(Ewan MacColl)

It was in the year of '84 shit really hit the fan
When 'Mac the Knife' MacGregor, Maggie Thatcher's hatchet-man
Said, Another twenty pits will have to close to meet the plan
And we'll dump another twenty thousand miners

Daddy were you with the first of the first
Did you tell the NCB to do its worst
Or did you save your lily liver
Sell the union down the river
A scab, a blackleg, one forever cursed

When Arthur Scargill heard the news he cried, This Yankee slob
Is a gift from Cowboy Reagan and he's here to steal our jobs
Do an axe-job on the union for the crummy Thatcher mob
But we'll show him what it means to be a miner

Daddy did you man the picket-line
Did you fight to save the future of the mines
Or did you take the wrong direction
Did you squeal for police protection
Did you let 'em see your india-rubber spine

Well the Yorkshire lads came out on strike and said, It's evident
The only way to stop MacGregor and the government
Is to bring the lads out everywhere from Scotland down to Kent
And we'll show 'em what it means to be a miner

Daddy what did you do in the strike
Did you stand there with your mates and join the fight
Or did you show a yellow belly
Spill your guts out on the telly
Did you let the bosses fill you full of shite

Some didn't heed the strike call for guts and brains they lack
They're the colour of a primrose though their hearts and legs are black
And their noses are all brown with being up the rear of Mac
They're just a bunch of dirty blackleg miners

Daddy did you march at the head
Did you stand there on the picket-line unfed
Or did you sell your mates to have a
Fortnight on the Costa Brava
Did you choose a two-week holiday instead

Well the battle it is joined at last the forces they are massed
On their side the press the telly all the weapons of their class
Plus MacGregor and his blacklegs but we'll never let 'em pass
The NUM's the weapon of the miners

Daddy what did you do in the strike
Did you scab and let your workmates wage the fight
How the neighbours stood and booed us
Said we had the stink of Judas
Daddy what did you do in the strike

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: Joybell
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 07:49 PM

Such anger! A good paddling on the bottom by one of us Old Farts" would be a good idea. The songs of McColl and Bogle were never part of a folk culture. They are not old folk-ballads.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 07:44 PM

The distinction is between the case where it comes out naturally, as against the case where it is used as a technique. And one reason for that is that you are likely to end up with the situation where the performer is putting on an emotion like some garment, and the audience is uninvolved and admiring the technique.

In the examples akenaton gave, the emotion is there - but it's held in check ("cold fury"), which I believe makes it far more effective at eliciting a corresponding emotion in the listener.

My impression is that gargoyle is a quintessential old fart.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 07:19 PM

Oh, climb down, dick-head!! There-- happy now??

A

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 07:16 PM

And while Im on my "high horse .Why is there so much shit on this forum at present .We all seem to be getting more sanctimonious and sentimental by the day ......BRING BACK GARGOYLE......BAN THE OLD FARTS...

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 07:11 PM

Sorry to revive this dead thread, but I'v been away and reading through the messages I dont think we have got the idea of emotion in Folk music...What about Ewan Macoll's anger at the treatment of industrial workers (including his own father) and Eric Bogle's cold fury at the futility of war .There are countless other examples,This is what makes Folk music so different.I dont agree with what Mcgrath and others say ,that it should all be left up to the listener,when people feel things deeply its bound to come through in the music they produce....Ake

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 12:03 AM

I saw Maddy Prior dance all over the Carnegie Lecture Hall, singing "Padstow". I don't know if she was showing off, or if it was the joy of the song. But it was something special.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: Joybell
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 10:05 PM

I knew I had found kindred spirits. I find vocal tricks distracting at best and unbearably painful at worst. Of course that doesn't mean that I haven't gulped or sobbed in the middle of an old ballad on occasion. I have a horror of singers who put in deliberate emotion or draw attention to their voices. The song and not the singer - that's what I strive to convey.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 08:16 PM

I was at a workshop which Dan Keding - storyteller 9(and singer too) and Mudcatter - gave at Sidmouth Festival last month, and the question about emotion came up. Dan was very firm on the idea that, when you're telling a story the emotion belongs in the listeners, and I think that goes for songs. That doesn't mean a flat and uninvolved performance, but an element of detachment, a kind of modesty.

Actually the word for what I dislike is when a singer "emotes", and starts using a display of emotion as a technique.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 09:23 AM

I recently had the opportunity to catch a performance where the singer used certain vocal calisthenics while presenting his songs. The use was surprising and effective at producing a desired response the first time, but by the time the third or fourth song rolled around I found myself wishing he would stop showing me his voice tricks and just sing. The attempt to inflict each song with this affectation became an annoyance.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 08:52 AM

Authenticity is all.

Mudlark strikes to the very core again!


A

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: Mudlark
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 12:56 AM

Authenticity is all...the minute the listener detects effort, it becomes manipulation. On the other hand, there are some voices that, whether because of resonance or emotion or something else, tend to get me going. Listening to Eva Cassidy sing Fields of Gold or I Know You By Heart makes me cry every time...or Emmy Lou singing She No Longer Needs You...or Fred Neil...

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:44 PM

All music conveys emotion. Handel lived in a time when reason ruled, and emotion was mistrusted. Yet he wrote "The Messiah" an emotional piece of music if ever there was one. To hear it sung by some church choir diva, who feels nothing, is not a happy experience.   
Unless you are made of stone, there are some songs that are going to make you feel, and that emotion is going to come through in your singing. This is not, necessarily a bad thing.
                Once more! With feeling!

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:13 PM

I own the 2 record set by John Jacob Niles....I think I have have played it maybe twice in 20 years. 'Nuff said...

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 04:10 PM

Mcgrath ..Im talking more about the finer nuances of the singers voice,as when listening to Linda Thomson for example,shes giving away her deepest secrets when she sings.Anyway thats how I see it.
And Guest "big nurse" that taxi's sounding better all the time.
   Best wishes Ake....

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 03:55 PM

There's evoking emotion and there's projecting it - that's the difference I mean. For me the place where the emotion belongs is in the person listening to the song, and in the heart of the singer - but not in the singing.

That's a personal preference, though it's also one that seems pretty general to most traditional ways of singing in all parts of the British Isles. It's very important in Sean Nos singing. There are types of singing where naked emotion, real or assumed, seems very important, such as Flamenco and Soul.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: GUEST,Big Nurse
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 03:46 PM

Now take your medicine and hop into the nice taxi, Ake.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 03:42 PM

Thanks for your replies folks especially Guest, who has obviously "worked the cars " in his time.   I dont think I totally agree with Mcgrath and Alanabit..There seems to be a small group of singers who can project true emotion.    Mind you ,a good song can help.Any ideas on singers who "get you going " emotionally.
I very much agree with "misophists" remarks.
The young singers like Kate Rusby and Cara dillon ,though very popular appear to be "ear-candy".    Ake...

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 12:52 PM

I'm with alanabit there - I loathe it when singers try to put emotion into a song. Sing it straight and if the emotion breaks through, that's a different thing. The emotion should be in the listener to be experienced, not in the performer, to be observed.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 12:35 PM

For me it comes down to what sounds natural and convincing. There was a slight crack in Billie Holliday's voice, which was just perfect for what she did. It's there in some of my favourite blues singers too. Singers who over emote - especially when the lyrics in no way justify that treatment - are a bit of a turnoff for me.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:38 AM

I love voices that are expressive & that have a range of expressions too. There is nothing more disappointing to me than hearing a fantastic rendition & then finding out the rest of the repertoir is exactly the same flavour. So - I like a varied diet of high emotion and mellow restful & all stations between.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:16 AM

I've always preferred voices that sounded like they'd been somewhere, done something, suffered some, and lived to tell the tale.

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:02 AM

getting analytical about it ruins the pleasure....(for me at least)

Subject: RE: Emotion 'junkies'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 07:47 AM

Taxi's here Mr Akenaton & the meter's running.

Subject: Emotion 'junkies'
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 07:34 AM

I suppose most of us know that the "hook" that ties us "folkies"to the music we love is the emotional fix (sadness, happiness, anger , indignation),contained in most performances.I remember a young waif called June Tabor,singing "the band played Waltzing Matilda"on one of the TV folk series'.I had never heard the song before and the sound of june singing it unaccompanied was unforgettable.
Of late I have developed a disturbing trait,involving the analysis of the tremors ,cracks and dents in Linda Thompsons magnificent folk voice in an attempt to wring out the last buzz.
Do any other Mudcats display this behaviour,or should I await the arrival of "Frank Bruno's taxi"