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BS: are scottish gaelic and irish gaelic diffe

tuggy mac 24 Sep 03 - 05:53 AM
smallpiper 24 Sep 03 - 07:35 AM
greg stephens 24 Sep 03 - 07:36 AM
Daithi 24 Sep 03 - 08:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Sep 03 - 08:43 AM
Peg 24 Sep 03 - 11:46 AM
tuggy mac 24 Sep 03 - 02:05 PM
GUEST 16 Jan 05 - 06:54 PM
Lighter 16 Jan 05 - 07:22 PM
Beer 16 Jan 05 - 09:28 PM
michaelr 16 Jan 05 - 11:46 PM
ard mhacha 17 Jan 05 - 01:54 PM
Teresa 17 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Paul Burke 18 Jan 05 - 11:59 AM
GUEST 28 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM
PoppaGator 28 Apr 09 - 12:43 PM
MartinRyan 28 Apr 09 - 12:48 PM
Riginslinger 28 Apr 09 - 01:44 PM
PoppaGator 28 Apr 09 - 02:03 PM
irishenglish 28 Apr 09 - 02:10 PM
GUEST 28 Apr 09 - 02:24 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 28 Apr 09 - 09:03 PM
Gweltas 28 Apr 09 - 09:41 PM
Gweltas 28 Apr 09 - 10:01 PM
Riginslinger 28 Apr 09 - 10:41 PM
maple_leaf_boy 28 Apr 09 - 10:55 PM
maple_leaf_boy 28 Apr 09 - 11:02 PM
Monique 29 Apr 09 - 01:33 AM
GUEST,Dáithí 29 Apr 09 - 05:46 AM
greg stephens 29 Apr 09 - 07:41 AM
irishenglish 29 Apr 09 - 10:28 AM
manitas_at_work 29 Apr 09 - 10:51 AM
greg stephens 29 Apr 09 - 11:15 AM
manitas_at_work 29 Apr 09 - 11:20 AM
maple_leaf_boy 02 May 09 - 10:37 PM

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Subject: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: tuggy mac
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:53 AM

are the two languages different.can the irish galic understand the scottish galic language and visa versa? anyone please.

Tuggy mac


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: smallpiper
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 07:35 AM

they have similarities but are fairly different.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 07:36 AM

Well I dont speak Irish or Scots Gaelic so I know nothing really, but I'll try tostart the ball rolling till some experts come along. I've worked extensively in Western Scotland and Ireland and talked to people about this, and what I've heard is that there are many variations inside Ireland, but a standardised version is taught in the schools. But traditional native speakers preserve the differences, and Donegal Irish was not(and maybe still is not) easily understood by someone who speaks Waterford Irish,for example. And,as you would expect, Donegal Irish is quite close to Western Isles Scots Gaelic, but still substantially different. It is worth remebering that Scots gaelic was referred to as "Irish" in Lowland Scotland in quite recent historical times.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Daithi
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 08:07 AM

Whilst no expert, I do speak Irish whenever possible. My father was anative speaker from the Mayo Gaeltacht.
The Irish took their language with them when they started settling in scotland in the 6th century. Since then, it has drifted away from its parent considerably. The pronunciation is quite different and some of the spellings and vocab is quite distinct from Irish. (made even more fun since Irish spelling was reformed about 50 years ago). There are indeed a number of dialects of modern Irish - plus "book Irish" a standardised version culled from most dialects and taught in schools.
I believe that although Scots gaelic (Gadhilge) has many characteristics of Donegal/Ulster Irish (Gaeilge) it also shares some with Munster Irish.
I originally learnt Connacht Irish as a boy but in recent years have taken up Donegal Irish, spending most summers at a language school in the Donegal Gaeltacht. I find that I can often read Scots Gaelic - even though the spelling looks strange to me, and there vocabulary problems.
(Gaeilge:I am = Tá mé (pronounced taw-may)
Gadhilge:I am = Thá mi (pronounced haa-mee)
I wonder if the relationship between the two languages nowadays is similar to that between , say, Dutch and Afrikaans, or Spanish and Portuguese?
Dáithí


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 08:43 AM

My understanding is that it's about the same as English and Scots.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Peg
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 11:46 AM

I have studied both in a classroom setting; there are a fair number of differences, and a fair number of similarities.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: tuggy mac
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:05 PM

much gracias amigos!


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 06:54 PM

As a Scots Gael, we find the Irish spoaken in Ulster/Donegal farily easy to understand when spoaken. The RTE Gaelic, the "Book Irish" my god! not even the Lewis folk speak that strangly, and thats saying something. The bigest problem facing mutual understanding is the revised spelling in Irish, we Scots are still too used to the load of letters in the middle and end of our words that the Irish got rid of, because they are mostly,, but not always,,,silent. The other problem is that Scots Gaelic never developed eclipsis, thats where the Irish take the last letter of the word before and stick it on the following word! (that btw is a very simplistic way of explaining it,, but I am a Scots Gael, so dont really know!) a good example is the "Land of Youth" in Scots Gaelic "Tir nan Og"
in Irish "Tir na nOg" thats one of the easier examples, I'm sure there are better examples on this site!

ta!


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:22 PM

In the Hebrides a few years back a friend of mine from the southern part of the Irish Republic began speaking Irish to a young Scottish lady who spoke Scottish Gaelic. (We were making a purchase at a bookstore and the young woman was the cashier.)

She laughed with amusement and replied in Scottish Gaelic. The two of them chatted on for several minutes. I asked if they'd had any difficulty in understanding each other. Both of them had learned their second language in school, and both agreed that they had no trouble at all in understanding each other, but that each sometimes used idioms that sounded either old-fashioned or slightly odd to the other, and their accents differed as well.

They both seemed to feel that their respective school systems tended to emphasize the degree of difference bateween the two "Gaelics" rather than their similarities.

My impression was that they had far less difficulty understanding one another than, say, the average American or English urbanite has in comprehending old-fashioned spoken Lowland Scottish English of the Burns variety.

Just an anecdote, but illuminating.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Beer
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:28 PM

I often wondered the same question but never thought in asking. Thank you and "Lighter" I enjoyed your response.
Beer from Montreal Ca.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 11:46 PM

Thanks Lighter -- your post confirms what I've suspected for a while: as humans, there is more we have in common than there is separating us.

Slan,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:54 PM

i have spoken to many Irish speakers who have conversed with Scots Gallic speakers, after initial difficulty, they later could converse readily.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Teresa
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM

I can't put my finger on it, and I don't speak either, but I can guess correctly most of the time if it's Scots or Irish.

Teresa


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:59 AM

Don't forget there's Manx Gaelic too:
Read some and listen to it


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM

Just stumbled onto this. Most of my family on one side are from stornoway and speak the gaighlig as a first language and my girlfriend from ireland, who learnt some in school was able to pick up one or two words but didn't really understand much at all. I have heard that the gaighlig of Islay is similar to ireland. Also there has been a history of antagonism towards gaidhlig in scotland from the south and this led to a distancing of the language, ie disparagingly calling it erse. Rececently more and more academics tend to believe that gaighlig has been in scotland far earlier than the 5th century due to more compelling archeological evidence rather than reliance on the dalriada myth and conquest of the house of alpin myth, believing the dividing line in scotland was up the spine of scotland with p celtic on the east and south and q celtic to the west and north. In theory the west of scotland may have been populated at the same time as ireland with 'gaelic' speakers although it is likely both travelled through iberia due to genetic links.
Tapah Leibh


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 12:43 PM

Daithi ~ if you're still there ~ could you tell us where in Mayo the Mayo Gaeltacht is located? Just curious...

I have relatives in east Mayo, outside Ballyhaunis and very near the boundary with Co Roscommon, and was fortunate enough to be able to visit, briefly, a few years ago. So, I have a little familiarity with the area.

I'm aware that there is a Gaeltacht in Co Galway. Is the Irish-speaking part of Mayo, perhaps, close to Connemara/Galway?


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 12:48 PM

Poppagator

This map from Údarás na Gaeltachta should be reliable!

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 01:44 PM

"Both of them had learned their second language in school, and both agreed that they had no trouble at all in understanding each other, but that each sometimes used idioms that sounded either old-fashioned or slightly odd to the other, and their accents differed as well."


             When they teach it in school, are they teaching the same language in both Ireland and Scotland? And then there's the post about Manx, is that very similar?


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 02:03 PM

Martin, thanks for the link to those very informative maps


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 02:10 PM

The little bit of Manx I have ever heard or seen written had no similarity to the Irish or Scottish. But you must remember that Cornish, Breton, and Welsh are "celtic" languages, none of which have any similarity to Irish or Scottish as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 02:24 PM

I think Manx use phonetics. More difficult than the original.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:03 PM

As a young woman my (Cape Breton Scottish Gaelic speaking) mother worked in Boston with an Irish lady. The Irish lady could not believe that my mother did not come from Ireland because she mixed Gaelic expressions and ideom into her English. I don't think that they could understand each other well at after a while it was easier.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Gweltas
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:41 PM

There are in fact SIX Celtic languages, which divide down into two groups of three........Group One :- Irish, Manx and Scotts Gaidhlig and GroupTwo :- Welsh Cornish and Breton.
The three in group one are classified as Goidelic languages and the second group are classified as Brythonic languages. This distinction is often referred to as "Q Celtic" (Goidelic) and "P Celtic"(Brythonic) because words that have a "Q" sound in group one have a "P" sound in group two .......an example being the word for "head", which in Irish is "Ceann" and in Cornish is "Pen" (I've often wondered if this difference might have had anything to do with the expression in English "Mind your P's and Q's" !!)
Anyway, it has been my experience as an Irish speaker(Munster Dialect) that I can follow with difficulty what is being said in Manx or Scotts Gaidhlig, but as my ear/brain "tunes in" the percentage that I can understand increases. However, being an Irish speaker gives me no advantage whatever when listening to either Welsh, Cornish, or Breton !!
As I now live in Cornwall and have Cornish speaking friends, I'm beginning to understand a little Cornish and while it is completely different from Irish, I can recognise the common Celtic root words.
In any given year I attend at least three Celtic Festivals and have picked up words and phrases in all six languages and I will give an example of a simple question in all six. The question "Where do you live?" becomes :
Cá bhfhuil tú id' chónaí?         in Irish
C'raad t'ou cummal?             in Manx
Cáite bheil thú a' Fuireach?      in Scotts Gaidhlig
Pelec'h emaoc'h o chom?       in Breton
Lie ydych chi'n byw?             in Welsh
Ple'th os ta trygys?             in Cornish


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Gweltas
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 10:01 PM

I just hope to goodness I managed to spell all those Celtic phrases correctly, as I would prefer not to be responsible for a storm of indignation from any of the 6 Celtic nations over an error !! However, if I have erred, perhaps some kind linguist might correct me??
I remember reading some time ago that the "P" sound only entered into Irish in the 7th century, so not all words in the Goidelic languages have a "Q" sound where "P" appears in the corresponding word in the Brythonic languages. The reason that this little bit of information sticks in my mind was realising consequently that Ireland's 5th century patron saint, Patrick, can't therefore have actually been called "Patrick" in his lifetime, if the sound didn't exist in Irish till two centuries later......... now there's a thought !!!!
Anne XX


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 10:41 PM

Thanks, Gweltas, for all the help. What do we know about Britany in France? Are there still Celtic speakers there?


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 10:55 PM

Celtic heritage is still celebrated in France, but Celtic speakers,
I don't think. The languages that Gweltas mentioned are "Insular
Celtic Languages", which originated in the British Isles. There are
also six Continential Celtic Languages, which originated in mainlaind
Europe. Continential Celtic Languages are now extinct, according to
what I have read.


The evidence stating that Gaelic was spoken long before the Scots
Dalriada is realistic.
The Celtic people were originally nomadic, travelling and establishing settlements throughout Europe before the Romans invaded. Inhabitants of Scotland and Ireland obviously would have known about each other, and occupied lands in each.
An example would be: The Druid religion, was also vibrant in the British Isles before Dalriada, and many of them in Scotland probably spoke Gaelic as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish galic and irish galic diffe
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 11:02 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong about Celtic language not being spoken in France.
Just to add on that, the Pictish language (the other major kingdom in
Scotland during the Dalriada era; went into extinction in favor of
Gaelic in the ninth century, without many written records surviving; so it remains in controversy.
The same could be said about French Celtic
Language, due to Europe being successfully Romanized several centuries
prior, and the Druids of Britain being wiped out by the Romans by the
end of the 2nd century (Druids performed their rituals in secret, and
their doctrines were memorized orally).


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish gaelic and irish gaelic diffe
From: Monique
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 01:33 AM

Sure Breton is still spoken in Brittany -though "regional languages" (it's how they're officially called) have always had a hard time in France. They have an Office of the Breton language (only in Breton and French) and Coop Breizh (French only) is an online store where you can order a lot of Breton stuff (music, books, jewels, posters etc); you can also shop there physically in Spezet. The Breton immersion schools are called Diwan (French and Breton only)


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish gaelic and irish gaelic diffe
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 05:46 AM

Hi PoppaGator

Yep, Tá mé anseo fós = still here!

Back when I was a boy the Gaeltacht area in Mayo was largely in the Belmullet area. I lived near kiltimagh (further east of course) and so learned Irish at school and from my father, who was from the Gaeltacht himself.
D


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish gaelic and irish gaelic diffe
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 07:41 AM

So Patrick would have been Catrick when he arrived in Ireland, is that the theory?


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish gaelic and irish gaelic diffe
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 10:28 AM

Great post Gweltas, I didn't have access to my book about the Q and P forms yesterday. Rig, regarding Breton, I have two friends from there who now live here in the states. They both have told me that other than a few requisite phrases they learned in school, Breton had little bearing on their lives. Of course the culture does push ahead despite modern intrusions, notably with musicians like Alan Stivell, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish gaelic and irish gaelic diffe
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 10:51 AM

But Patrick would have been British and would have had no problem with his P sounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish gaelic and irish gaelic diffe
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 11:15 AM

What I meant was, he would arrive calling himself Patrick, but his Irisah captors (or cactors) would have said "Hello Catrick". Or possibly not?


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish gaelic and irish gaelic diffe
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 11:20 AM

Wouldn't a B sound be closer? It's made by the lips and not back in the mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: are scottish gaelic and irish gaelic diffe
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 02 May 09 - 10:37 PM

Born in: Banna Venta Berniae, Wales.
I'd think so, too about the B.If he introduced himself as "Patrick", they would try to pronounce his name as closely as they could, and say: "Hello, Batrick." When reading and writing his name, maybe Catrick.

So, adding to the thread, "gill", "ghillie", and other related words:
After reading about there being several root words written similar to
the words I've mentioned in history books; I've wondered this?
Why would some history books claim certain names that are derived from Gaelic be difficult to determine from which of these root words they originate from? Such as determining whether a name was derived from
Gilli-Brid being "servant/follower of St. Bridget" or from Ghilli-Bhreac
or Ghilli-Brath? I've read about this in R.R. McIan's collection, and
Ian Grimble's collection of clans; which also covers some history, and
tsome Gaelic language.


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