Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland

George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 24 Sep 03 - 02:17 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 24 Sep 03 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,MMario 24 Sep 03 - 03:02 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Sep 03 - 04:09 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 24 Sep 03 - 04:10 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Sep 03 - 04:13 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 24 Sep 03 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,MMario 24 Sep 03 - 04:33 PM
Stewart 24 Sep 03 - 04:47 PM
Barry T 24 Sep 03 - 08:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Sep 03 - 12:38 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 25 Sep 03 - 01:01 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 25 Sep 03 - 01:18 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 25 Sep 03 - 07:37 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 25 Sep 03 - 07:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Sep 03 - 08:12 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 25 Sep 03 - 11:02 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Sep 03 - 12:34 AM
GUEST,Sandy 26 Sep 03 - 01:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Sep 03 - 03:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Sep 03 - 03:50 PM
Malcolm Douglas 26 Sep 03 - 04:22 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 27 Sep 03 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,Charles 20 Feb 12 - 03:32 PM
Jack Campin 20 Feb 12 - 04:40 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:17 PM

From http://czartery.propl.com/newscot.htm

A Ballad of New Scotland

Let's away to new Scotland, where Plenty sits queen
O'er as happy a country as ever was seen
She blesses her subjects both little and great
With each a good house and a pretty estate.
Derry down, down
Down, derry down.
 
There's wood and there's water, there's wild fowl and tame
In the forest good ven'son, good fish in the stream
Good grass for our cattle, good land for our plough
Good wheat to be reaped, and good barley to mow.
Derry down, down
Down, derry down.
 
No landlords are there the poor tenants to tease
No lawyers to bully, nor stewards to seize
But each honest fellow's a landlord, and dares
To spend on himself the whole fruit of his cares.
Derry down, down
Down, derry down.
 
They've no duties on candles, no taxes on malt
Nor do they, as we do, pay sauce for their salt
But all is as free as in those times of old
When poets assure us the age was of gold.
Derry down, down
Down, derry down.

MIDI - Also usable for Mauling Live Oak(See DT)


From http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/ballads/FMB044.html

Ballad of New Scotland, A

DESCRIPTION: "Let's away to New Scotland, where Plenty sits queen O'er as happy a country as ever was seen." The abundant riches of Nova Scotia are praised, and the lack of duties and landlords is pointed out
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1750 ("The Gentleman" magazine)
KEYWORDS: emigration Canada nonballad
HISTORICAL REFERENCES:
1749 - First large group of English colonists embark for New Scotland. The town they built is Halifax, Nova Scotia
FOUND IN:
REFERENCES (1 citation):
Fowke/Mills/Blume, pp. 44-45, "A Ballad of New Scotland" (1 text, 1 tune)
NOTES: Although fitted with an excellent melody (the magazine reports it to be "to the tune of 'King John and the Abbot of Canterbury'" -- the Derry Down tune), this song does not seem ever to have been found in tradition.
According to Laura M. McDonald, The Curse of the Narrows, p. 4, Halifax was founded in 1749 by 2576 (Protestant) settlers. It was intended primarily as a fortress against the French. It was a hard place to settle -- a basin in the midst of relatively infertile hills, with trees growing all the way down to the water -- but with a fine, sheltered, ice-free harbour that made it a natural seaport. - RBW
File: FMB044

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
Go to the Bibliography
Go to the Discography

The Ballad Index Copyright 2011 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


According to Folktrax, Alan Mills learned his version from the collection of Roy MacKenzie. He was a folk song collector in Nova Scotia who Helen Creighton was to follow in the footsteps.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:28 PM

The tune at the original site seems to be the same (a Barry Taylor MIDI), but only half the size of the one from Barry's own Great Canadian Tunes site which is where the link I posted is. IF you want the half size (still 2 minutes length and sounds the same [to my ears], you can pick it up at http://czartery.propl.com/newscot.mid

If someone would retrieve it and make the ABC and save it for the DT. Barry's quite good about it, but mention he did the work, please.

For Barry's great tune site, please have a look at Great Canadian Songs/Tunes Web-Site

36


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:02 PM

George - I'm willing to do the conversion - but both midi's are blocked by my content filter. If anyone want to send one to me (preferably Barry's as "we" do have a good relationship with him) can e-mail lpola@edutech.org

(this knocks another tune off the great tune hunt as well!!!!)

2593 MAULOAK MAULING LIVE OAK


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:09 PM

Hi George,
Many emigrants left Alba seeking a better life based on false promise of riches in the new land. This song could well be written to entice settlers, but I wonder.....
If it predates 1750 most people (emigrants) would not have understood the Bearla lyrics . Do you suppose that this may have been a translation from the Gaidhlig?
             Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:10 PM

E-mail with MIDI on the way, MMario.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:13 PM

Note:
    Halifax was first settled for military purpose rather than a gateway for immigration.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:15 PM

I've been wondering, but haven't found anything to suggest that so far. According to what I have read, and that's off the internet, it was first collected by Roy MacKenzie who did his collecting here on the mainland. I don't know of any Gaelic songs which use the tune, of the Derry Down. The only other song I've encountered using that specific tune is the Mauling Live Oak as I mentioned earlier, which is a Maine Lumbering Shanty. It's hard to say. Still, Halifax wasn't settled by the Scottish people exclusively.

I am wondering how they traced it that far back to the 1750s. Is there a song with the Derry Down chorus which dates back that far?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:33 PM

Well - Ben Franklin wrote at least one song that specified 'Derry down' for the tune....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Tune Add: New Scotland
From: Stewart
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:47 PM

Here it is:

X:1
T:NewScotland
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:1/4=70
K:C
z4zG/2G/2|GAG ^FED|EDC B,2B,/2B,/2|C3/2D/2C EDC|
B,CD E2^F/2E/2|DCB, B,CB,|B,3/2C/2B, G2G|GGG A3/2G/2^F|
G3/2^F/2E F3/2E/2D|B,3G3|^F3/2E/2D B,3-|B,3z3|]


Cheers, S. in Seattle


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Barry T
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 08:57 PM

George> The tune at the original site seems to be
George> the same (a Barry Taylor MIDI) but only
George> half the size of the one from Barry's
George> own Great Canadian Tunes site

FYI, I use NTONYX Style Enhancer ( http://www.ntonyx.com/ ) to make my midi sequences more realistic. The software does magic things like adding expression, vibrato, etc. It even makes the electronic flute player take a breath once in a while! To accomplish this adds size to the file.

Sometimes you'll find versions of my midis where I've used it, and earlier versions of the same midi, where I haven't. Folks who 'inhale' my midi files into their own sequencing software also strip out the enhanced sound.

No big deal. 'Just wanted to explain the difference in file size.

- - -


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 12:38 AM

Ceolas (Fiddlers Companion) has "Derry Down" back to the 17th c. Don't know if it is the same tune.

The language seems more recent than 18th century. Has it been modernized from the 1750 lyrics?

Several sites with midi, one is the Canadian Clan Stirling site. (words also) at: New Scotland


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 01:01 AM

Thanks for the explanation, Barry. I know I REALLY enjoy your versions.

I've not noticed any difference ini the text in all the versions I've seen online. I am going to try to hit the library tomorrow or Friday to see what it has.

It COULD be that Roy MacKenzie or the informant may have modified the words to be more "modern". I can't tell. This is the folk process at work, right? Making the song fit the audience it is being sung for?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 01:18 AM

I wonder if the library might have microfiche copies of the magazine, "The Gentleman", mentioned.

I sent an e-mail to the Clan Stirling web-master to see if he has more information. I'm wondering if the song was written by someone of his clan affiliation. Possibly it might, since it was on the clan web-site.

Interesting though.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 07:37 PM

Did some checking based on that King John and The Abbot of Canterbury information, and found that it is a song that is in the DT. Child #45. It's also the tune/chorus of a number of other songs.

King John and the Abbot - Child 45
Red Iron Ore
On Midsummer Day
WHAT A COURT HATH OLD ENGLAND
Pickled Jew
COAL OWNER AND PITMAN'S WIFE
BLUE MOUNTAIN LAKE
THE DREADNAUGHT
AVINGTON POND
Barrel of Beer
Fiddle's Hard Case

Found other versions of the song at:

King John and the Bishop - Child #45 - Information
King John and the Abbot - Song
Quiller Couch - King John and The Abbot
King John and the Abbot of Canterbury- Fairy Tales
King John and the Abbot of Canterbury-
King John & the Bishop - Child #45
King John And The Abbot Of Canterbury
King John and the Bishop - Child #45


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 07:39 PM

BTW, the tune/abc is included in some of the links. Note that a number of other sites seem to have taken the lyrics out of the DT and made it part of theirs without ANY credit to the DT. Metro Lyrics and Lyrics Download are two of those.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 08:12 PM

Re your last post, George, looking for supplementary words to songs, I have also run across websites that took Mudcat material. How am I sure? The identical errors in spelling.

Don't know how good the history is, but when the Acadians were expelled, in the mid-1700s, Gov. Lawrence invited New Englanders to come. They became known as the "Planters." This was, however, a little after the appearance of the song in "The Gentleman."

The song does seem meant for immigrants, but going by the words, more likely those from Scotland rather than those from the south.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 11:02 PM

I agree, the song does seem likely to be from Scotland. However, it could be aimed at anyone in the British Isles.

Also, if you look at the second last link, it is exactly the same as the first of the DT links. Lyricsdownload.com's page has near, the bottom, Document Boundary, which was common in the previous versions of the DT.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 12:34 AM

Thread drift- The two versions of #45 in Child are not in the Derry Down pattern. Branson says there are broadside versions using different tunes and names three.
The Derry Down pattern in the DT is very similar to the version by D'Urfey, 1719-1720, in Branson, Singing Tradition; this pattern is the one in traditional singing (The king gave Four pounds a week, not the tuppence of the DT version). Branson gives further versions with different tunes, as well as the tune from Playford, 1650, for this tale ("The Night Peece").


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: GUEST,Sandy
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 01:44 PM

There is another thing confusing about the pre-1750 origin of the song. Efforts to entice settlers from the British Isles were mostly after that date, and at that point in time Scottish Highlanders were being hunted down and slaughtered as a result of the 1745 rising.
However, if we go back another century and a quarter to the time of James VI/I we find an effort to colonize Nova Scotia with Scots by Sir William Alexander and the Knights Baronet of Nova Scotia. The name Nova Scotia (New Scotland) was proclaimed by King James for his new world territory. This was a much larger area than the povince that we know today.
Could this song date to that time? Perhaps, because for most of the time in between Nova Scotia did not exist as it was Acadia, posessed by France.
However if this song goes back to early 17th century Scotland it is not in a language that would be easily understood by either the Scots speaking Lowlander or the Gaelic speaking Highlander. That is why I suspect that it may have been a translation.
I know this will post as guest because I lost my cookie again.
       Slainte,
         Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 03:23 PM

The lyrics of the "Ballad of New Scotland" do not appear before the 1750 printing in "The Gentleman." This seems to have been an English periodical.

In the period 1730-1780, there are a number of songs in the Bodleian Library, printed in England, that use the tune; some by stated authors, some political, some humorous, some about love. The tune was obviously very popular with lyric writers at that time. (See thread on "The Queen's Ass" for a satirical song).

The "Derry Down" tune is old, but that does not help with the dating of the lyrics.
There may be more than one "Derry Down" tune. 17th c. references may not be to the same tune as 18 c references.
Moreover, reading through the lyrics, in some only the chorus fits the tune.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 03:50 PM

A London Magazine called "The Gentleman's Magazine" published from 1731. Oxford has the first 20 years on line. I have not gone through the year 1750, vol. 20, but site maps for Chebucto and Halifax (p. 295) and an article on the flora of Nova Scotia are items noted in the introductory material for that year.

Probably the wrong magazine, but interesting items, nevertheless.
Gentlemans

(http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/spok/serials/gentlemans.html)

Also see The Gentlemans Magazine: http://etext.library.virginia.edu/bsuva/gm/gm3.html

Sorry, must rush off.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 04:22 PM

The Derry Down tune first appears in Pills to Purge Melancholy (1700) but is probably older. It was enormously popular throughout the 18th century, and carried many songs.

It is vanishingly unlikely that New Scotland could be a translation from any "Gaelic original", nor is there any internal evidence that it was directed at people in the Gaelic-speaking areas of Scotland any more than at anyone else; indeed, it seems most likely to have been aimed at potential English settlers (a great many English people emigrated to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland at that period). The title of the song refers only to the destination; there seems no reason to think (as a lot of people appear, unaccountably, to have done) that it has anything to do with "old" Scotland.

The Gentleman's Magazine began publication, in London, in January 1731, and closed down in 1907. Facsimiles of the first 20 volumes can be seen online at the Internet Library of Early Journals at the Bodleian Library website. The song in question here is in Volume 20, February 1750, p.84:

Nova Scotia   A New Ballad. To the Tune of King John and the Abbot of Canterbury. Four verses are given, with no indication of authorship. A note reads: See the rest in the Weekly Entertainer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 02:15 AM

Thank you Malcolm. That's excellent work finding that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 03:32 PM

I have the original copy of the Gent. Mag. from Feb 1750. It was a propaganda piece to get the lower classes of the UK to settle in Nova Scotia. Not Scottish by itself at all. The first non-military settlers were bribed by the UK gov't to settle in Nova Scotia in exchange for one free years supplies. By the way for those that don't know, Nova Scotia is latin for New Scotland :o)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ballad of New Scotland
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 04:40 PM

Some of the intended settlers probably were Scottish - that was the period of the "tacksmen's emigration" (though it peaked later, in the 1760s).

Material about that on the web is mostly Jacobite-fantasy garbage. It had next to nothing to do with 1745 rebellion - started before it and continued after it. More to do with some people (the tacksmen) wanting to get rich and others (their people) wanting not to be as poor, insofar as they were given any choice in the matter. I doubt if many tacksmen read The Gentleman's Magazine, but the message would have got to them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 20 September 5:51 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.