Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters

Subject: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: GUEST,Train Guard
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:47 PM

From The Times.

" KIM HOWELLS, the outspoken Transport Minister, says that trainspotters are a menace, accusing Britain's army of rail enthusiasts, made up mainly of men over 40, of distorting decision-making about transport in Britain. There are 150,000 people employed in the rail industry and at least 200,000 registered trainspotters, and they have enormous influence on transport policy, he said."

There are no 'registered trainspotters' (whatever that means), and I'm not sure what he has against men over forty. At least he didn't get so far as to require morris dancers to register.

Seriuosly, how can people take a bufoon like this seriously?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:53 PM

Is there a register of buffoons?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: treewind
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:04 PM

No but they can be certified.

Over here, Dr. Howells, the nice men in white coats are waiting...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:09 PM

What the Hell will they start on next ???

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:39 PM

Maybe they'll insist on a licence before you can drive a computer...

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Leo Condie
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:52 PM

Hahaha, the man will stop at nothing...

A "this machine kills kim howells" ala Mr Guthrie now takes pride of place on my guitar (not because of the trainspotters thing, mind you).

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Leo Condie
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:00 PM

The question is, is this a step too hard for die-hard labour voter Gareth?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:18 PM

I can see a coalition building:

ANORAK - "Alliance of Nuts and Oddballs Rise Against Kim"

Or it might be - "Angry Old Revolutionaries Annihilate Kim"

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Leo Condie
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:06 PM

Another Nonsensical Old Right-wing Arsehole: Kim

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:08 PM

what's a trainspotter?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Leo Condie
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:12 PM

exactly what it says on the tin: someone who goes along to the railway station with a notepad and writes down what trains theyve seen. you can see, already, how much damage they are clearly doing to our fragile country.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:34 PM

I think the problem is that trainspotters notice when the services are cut back on the quiet - for example rescheduling a train to a funny time so that they can say noone is using it, and slash the service. When information like that gets out it's the kind of thing that upsets the train companies and we can't have that.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 06:05 PM

I suggest that those trolling read the entire report, rather than selective quotes.

"KIM HOWELLS, the outspoken Transport Minister, says that trainspotters are a menace, accusing Britain's army of rail enthusiasts, made up mainly of men over 40, of distorting decision-making about transport in Britain.

"There are 150,000 people employed in the rail industry and at least 200,000 registered trainspotters, and they have enormous influence on transport policy," he said. "Rail use accounts for only 7 per cent of transport but 95 per cent of transport politics."

Speaking yesterday at a Fabian Society seminar, he expressed sympathy for the millions of car drivers who rarely, if ever, catch trains but see far more of their taxes spent on rail than on roads.

"We put huge amounts of money into railways but the tax is taken from people who mostly never travel on railways," he said.

Dr Howells launched a tirade against a member of the Railfuture lobby group at the seminar for saying that the railways needed more money.

The minister said: "I disagree with possibly everything you have said. This is precisely the trainspotter mentality coming through here. We spend much more in public funds on railways than we do on roads."

He also said that cars were greener than trains."

Mind you I am surprised that anyone takes the Murdoch owned Times as a serious newspaper.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Leo Condie
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 06:31 PM

hey, you take bliar as a serious leader...

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 06:38 PM

The answer to Kim C's question left me unenlightened.

Why do trainspotters trainspot?

Is someone paying them to do it?

Is it some sort of hobby?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Edain
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 07:15 PM

They do it as a hobby. Try to see new/all the trains etc. We have planespotters and eddiespottes aswell (Eddie Stobbartlorries all have a girls name on the front and people try to tick them all off their list)

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 07:44 PM

And bird watchers (feathered variety). He'll be after them next, I imagine.

So "outspoken" is the word? But from which orifice?

I know he's local for you Gareth - but the man is a liability. When he was Minister for eliminating Popular Culture I thought this might just be a case of misunderstanding, because it wasn't something he was too interested in. But trains and transport, that's "important" politics. This can't just be an aberration because he's been skiving off and hasn't done his homework.

Could he be a Plaid Cymru plant, designed to undermine the credibility of the Labour Party in South Wales?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Bassic
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 09:11 PM

Cars are greener than trains? Did he really say that?? Excuse me whilst I choke on the fumes from that Electric Train that just went past with 3oo people on board!!

The only reason that the railways are costing so much money to run at the moment is because of the chronic lack of investment in the preceeding 25 years and more. Its a huge game of "catch up". Of course we could always rip up the tracks, put down tarmac in its place and make them into a huge network of Bus/Lorry Lanes. Or am I missing something here.........?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 12:15 PM

Is it really true we spend more on rail than roads? I accept that major projects like the Eurolink have cost a great deal, but the maintenance of all the roads must come to a fair few pounds when you add it all up. Or is Kim Howells ignoring costs that are from local government and just counting national government as 'the public purse'?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 12:31 PM

'Is there a register of buffoons? ' Let's start one!

Sal

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: GUEST,Train Guard
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 02:09 PM

Since Kim Howell's grave announcement, many trainspotters are wondering where they should register.

Worry not.

You too can register as a bone fide trainspotter and start subverting this country's transport policy.....

Register now at the following link.

http://baseportal.com/cgi-bin/baseportal.pl?htx=/Centralrivers/Spotters&cmd=do_add

You know it makes (some sort of) sense.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 07:36 PM

Interstingly I was at a Union meeting tonight. The Question, as put to all affiliated organisations came up, should Kim Howells be reselected as candidate for Pontypridd ? - Unanimous vote of yes !

I fear that the hysteria (see previous threads) regarding Kim Howell is prejudicing any rational discussion.

After all if, and as an Anorak myself, I am aware of his target.

Who are those who would have no changes to the Railways, and if thier ambitions were left alone we would be back to steam, and a service pattern locked in the 1930's

IE your youth Kevin !!!! (slight grin)

No it needed saying, the self proclaimed experts can be wrong.

Oh and Howells has, in the last few months agreed -

1/. Extra funds for speeding up the Ebbw Vale - Newport branch reopening.

2/. Doubling Services on the Aberdare - Cardiff Branch.

3/. Safegaurding the track of the Ystrad Mynach - Bedlinog Branch with a view to possibly reopening to passengers services. ( I must confess I had small hand in the "amature study" presented to the Welsh Assembly to justify the safegaurd case )

4/. Agreed in principal that Rail Services in Wales should be under the control of the Welsh Assembly

I am afraid I have no love for the Bunny Hugging tendancy who seem to think that the only means of transport in Wales should be the train or Bicycle- They will destroy any hope of industrial regeneration.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 07:44 PM

And cars are a greener form of transport than trains...

And pigs can fy.

And Kim Howells is not one of those self-proclaimed expert who getb things wrong.

I'm not prejudiced against Kim Howells. I liked the look and the sound of him to start with. I'm bloody disappointed in him. First with the folk music - and now with the transport.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: jonm
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 03:19 AM

A car IS a greener form of transport than a train - even an electric train, given the manner in which the power is generated.

However, a train carrying 600 people is greener than 600 cars each with only a driver.

Beyond this, no comparisons can be made, since the majority of commuters do so by car, on their own, and as a result, many trains (OK, not the London ones!) run only part-full.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 04:11 AM

I always thought he was a prat but now I'm not so sure!

RtS

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 06:47 AM

As a life-long rail enthusiast and ex morris dancer I'm beginning to feel a distinct persecution complex coming on! Is there a register for people called Dave Masterson lurking round the corner?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 04:11 PM

A potentially very sexist name that, "Masterson"... Is there still a place for outmoded names like that in the 21st Century?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Leo Condie
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 06:58 PM

My daddy left home when I was three,
And he didn't leave much to Ma and me...
Just this old guitar and an empty bottle of Gin.
Now, I don't blame him cause he run and hid,
But the meanest thing that he ever did
Was before he left, he went and named me 'Kim'.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 10:07 PM

American railroads are in what you Brits call the loo. If I want to visit my kin in Kentucky, or my friends in Michigan I have to drive or fly. You would think someone with some sense would have done something to beef up rail transport after 9/11. But sense seems to be in short supply in Washington these days. Tell Miss Kim to take a ride on Amtrak, and then see what he thinks.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 02:35 AM

I fear that the hysteria (see previous threads) regarding Kim Howell is prejudicing any rational discussion.

If rational is a word that can be used in the context of any 'hysterical' approach by Dr Howells - you could well be right Gareth. Which would normally be a good reason for a political party to ditch an individual who caused issues important to be clouded by this factor.

The damage to the Party caused by this factor should be the reason to drop such as Dr Howells - and not promote him.

Not however our current Labour Party - if Gareth is representitive of it. Gareth repeatedly tries here to defend him and attempts to blame everyone who critises him.

Gareth would not the new (folk-singing) leader of the Welsh Nationalists be a better candidate now - for your support?

If the critics here of Dr Howells had just popped-up and for no reason started to prejudice rational discussion - there may be some justice in this approach. But Dr Howells was and is always the instigator of all of this. And rather than listening to his critics - has only one tactic but to continue to attack them. A tactic that Gareth appears to follow.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 09:19 AM

Shambles - Are you not guilty of the same offence you accuse me of ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Bassic
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 10:02 AM

Gareth, I am no expert on stuff, but I think the problem I have is your blind faith. Instead of trying to defend the indefenisable, and lets be honest here, he has said some indefensible things. What is it that he is GOOD at. I want to know what it is that creates your loyalty to the man.

For goodness sake, one of my MP`s is John Prescot, old 2 Jags himself. He has the capacity to get things wrong, big style, no point in denying it, but I have met the man, he didnt know me from Adam, but I was impressed. I really believe he cares and works very hard and is probably better at what he does than most of the alternatives, and I also believe he does listen and and isnt stupid. Thats where my respect (though limited) comes from. But not everyone has had my experience of him so I can understand the criticism he gets. And I dont defend everything he does just because I have a generally positive opinion of the man.

Where does it come from in you with KH? I would respect your support of him, even if I decided to disagree with it, far more if I knew. Believe me, I dont expect my politicians to be perfect, its a crap job and I wouldnt do it, there has to be a certain mentality to do the job and no one should be suprised that politicians are not always the best human beings we could find to represent us.

However, that said, there are lots of capable politicians, from all parties, who dont have the habit of putting their foot in it like KH. The stuff he has been criticised in the forum for, is for the most part, completely non political. It has been competence based criticism, poor decision making, hypocritical stuff. Thats what gets up peoples noses about him. He seems incompetent and thoughtless.

What ARE his qualities? What do YOU see in the man. Support his politics by all means, but why such faith in someone who keeps letting you down?

Please take this as a genuine attempt to understand your views and to find out more about KH. I know I have done my fair share of "having a go" in threads but I am not closed minded, and I would apreciate your thoughts.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 02:46 AM

Bottom line is that if Dr Howells was a Tory - Gareth would not always be defending someone whose only approach is to lie, bluster on and insult those who are better informed than he is.

The support he still receives from some Labour supporters. (not just Gareth)is due it would appear, to the strange perception they have - that he is 'a good bloke'.........Whatever that means.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 04:00 AM

I think Gareth's post of 25 Sep 03 - 07:36 PM gives some examples of why people might vote for Kim Howell's if he was their local MP. If it wasn't for the licencing bill, I'd be prepared to vote of him as my MP if that was typical behaviour. Compare and contrast Kim with my own MP. I've looked through his voting records and, apart from the free vote on fox-hunting when many MPs rebelled, he has voted for the government line every single time (that he voted at all), and I can find no record of him asking any remotely critical question.

I would rather have an opinionated Kim than an opinionless rubber-stamp.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Bassic
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 07:42 AM

Thanks Shambles and DMcG, I had a feeling that the truth would be in that area somewhere between "he is a good bloke" and "someone that at least speaks his mind and has an opinion".

Both are potentially admirable qualities. Gareth, can you add to that for me? I did see your 25th Sept comments and though they have little consequence to me personally, at the other side of the country, I can see that in Wales, they are seen as good works by your local MP.

As a good local MP, is the problem with KH then one of taking him beyond his area of knowledge/experience/expertise? (this seems to be where Shambles finds his frustration with KH) Is this then made worse by his tendency to be opinionated? (in other circumstance an admirable quality).

Perhaps the "missing factor" is one of being able to adapt to being at Ministerial level, be able to run a department, be able to quickly sort out the conflicting advice, make politically sensitive decisions. All essential qualities for a minister in government and sometimes very different qualities from those needed by an effective local MP. Am I getting close?

Again, please note, I am NOT trying to simply "rubbish" KH or attack those who admire him. I am looking at this as say a manager would look at the performance of an employee, one who has had success and has support, but is having problems.

More data please!! :-)

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 09:58 AM

Bassic - your thoughtfull posts deserve a measured reply.

Kim Howells is MP for Pontypridd, an adjoining constituency to Caerphilly. He has the repute of being a good constituency MP, ie he finds the time to deal with constituents problems and is effective this despite the time consuming role as a minister.

The items I quoted in my post of the 25th refer to his activities as a minister for transport.

KH's failings may well be that he, like most South Waleians, does not call a spade an agricultural implement, he calls it a ****** shovell.

Now his reported comments on "Sommerset Folk singers" may have outraged some, but most people in South Wales knew what we think he meant. ie That the Licencing Bill had no contol over the quality of the entertainment proposed.

Would there have been the same outcry on the Mudcat if it had ben phrased differently ?

Again - on the reported comments regarding "train spotters", read the full report. This was not an attack on us "Anoraks" It was, and quite correctly, a warning that transport policy can not be driven by "railway enthusiasts" only. I am afraid that some schemes for railway reopening can not be made in any objective case.

For an example recently, myself and others have had a run in in the local press by an attempt by the South Wales Green party to derail the construction of the long awaited Upper Rhymney Valley Access road (The Bargoed Bypass)

The greens alternative, double the rail service to a train every 15 minutes, and put cycle racks in the town center. Hmmm! Bargoed, Aberbargoed and Gilfach are typical Upper Valleys towns. Spread along the Rhymney Valley, and up the Valley sides. Hight ranging from 130 meters at the river to around 265 meters at the valley top. Gradients as steep as one in 5. Cycle racks ??? I can just see the elderly population strapping thier zimmer frames to the carriers on the bikes and toddling on uphill.

This ignores the fact that of neccesity the stations at Gilfach and Bargoed have to be situated near the railway, at the valley bottom.

All that doubling the xisting frequency will do is make it marginally easier to shop in Carphilly or Cardiff. Assumning that the restricted location at Cardiff will take many more paths between Central Station, and Queen St junction.

Ordenance map sheet 166 covers the area. Ref ST154990 will find the general location.

Unfortunately reopened railway lines cut no ice with industrial, or commercial developemnt. Jobs follow good roads. The Bargoed Bypass will mainly follow the track bed of the long closed Brecon and Merthyr main line to Newport. You may argue that this line should never have been closed, I agree - but it's done and much of the trackbed elsewhere built on or over, or otherwise destroyed.

You can see what Kim Howells was getting at, because yes, there are mumerings about rebuilding the Brecon, Merthyr and Newport line, but cost and utilisation do make this a non starter.

And that is why I will defend him.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Willa
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 10:25 AM

McGrath; 'Maybe they'll insist on a licence before you can drive a computer... '

Fact is sometimes stranger than fiction! There is such a thing as the 'European Computer Driving Licence'. I wonder if Dr Howells thought up the title?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 11:33 AM

Should Irving Welsh be worried?
Giok

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 03:00 PM

So he can't even tell the difference between a spade and a shoivel? Can't say I'm too surprised.

The Somerset folk singers but was a joke that gave a welcome opening into the media for people worried about the plans for licensing "reforms", and it worked. Any antagonism to Howells over that was tongue in cheek.

What got people angry with him was his refusal to do his homework properly and his inability to be honest about what his legalislation in fact involved, ot to admit mistakes even when they he had been forced to correct them.

It isn't because of his straight talking that he generates antagonism, but because of his refusal to talk straight.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 04:06 PM

So he can't even tell the difference between a spade and a shovel? Can't say I'm too surprised.

The Somerset folk singers was a joke that gave a welcome opening into the media for people worried about the plans for licensing "reforms", and it worked. Any antagonism to Howells over that was tongue in cheek.

What got people angry with him was his refusal to do his homework properly and his inability to be honest about what his legislation in fact involved, or to admit mistakes even when they had been forced to correct them.

It isn't because of his straight talking that he generates antagonism, but because of his refusal to talk straight.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 04:51 PM

We have the same problem in the U.S., on a smaller scale. The Bushies keep threatening to withhold all funding from AMTRAK, the national passenger rail corporation. They say the majority of taxpayers drive cars, so the tax money should subsidize highways. They say that if AMTRAK cannot support itself, then it should be put out of business.
They don't say anything about highways that don't support themselves.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 05:39 PM

Sorry Joe, not the same problem. Unfortunately since privatisation the railways of Britain seem to have an insatiable apitite for taxpayers money.

There in lies the basic problem, for the money going in is not producing much in the way of improvements.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Roughyed
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 06:04 PM

And what is your mate Kim's attitude to re-nationalisation?

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 06:23 PM

So long as Tony is agin it, it's a ridiculous idea.

But of course if Tony were ever to change his mind - "About Turn!"

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 02:23 AM

Now his reported comments on "Sommerset Folk singers" may have outraged some, but most people in South Wales knew what we think he meant. ie That the Licencing Bill had no contol over the quality of the entertainment proposed.

This comment was given in response was to people who were pointing out that certain types of folk music - those that were not performance - did not fit the model that was proposed in the Bill and were therefore placed at threat by this. This was a perfectly valid point that needed addressing and the fact that he did not address it was the reason that the entire Bill very nearly fell at the last post.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 07:34 PM

Kevin - The problem with renationalisation is that EU law requires full compensation for Asset Value and profits to be paid.

Myself I would love to see the contracts returned to public ownership.

If the private contractors were made to go bankrupt unfortunatley the assets, and that includes the value of the contracts, would be sold on the open market by the receivers - There is little in law that the government can do.

If you doubt this I suggest that you look at the recent history of Railtrack' liquidation.

I would respectfully suggest that you confine your criticism to those who flogged off the assets for a quarter of the book value, and put accountants, not proffesional railway men in charge.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 07:46 PM

What profits? And what is the value of a contract when it's been cancelled because of bad delivery of service?

Where there's a will there's a way. My preferred suggestion is to fine the companies every time they put a foot wrong, like having a late train, but to levy the fine in shares. If they'd set up that in '97, by this time I reckon we'd own them again, without needing to pay out a penny. (Either that or we'd have a decent service in oiperation - I'd be happy enough either way.)

And I'm sure there are other ways. Laws can be changed, and nationally owned railays are the normal pattern in most European countries so far as I'm aware, and we're suppposed to be harmonising things across Europe.

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 02:21 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall.

Last Saturday (20 September) London-based radio station Jazz FM gave former licensing minister Kim Howells a slot as a guest DJ.

There must be dozens of MPs who are jazz literate, equally competent as radio presenters, but who are not responsible for launching legislation that automatically allows bars to be packed with football supporters, big screens and powerful sound systems, but which criminalises the provision of even solo unamplified musicians unless licensed as 'regulated entertainment'.

For those within Jazz FM's range (or even outside it!) the person to write to is:

Mark Walker
Programme Director
Jazz FM
26-27 Castlereagh Street
London W1H 5DL

email: [e-mail]

The following is a letter to the station and some futher comments /advice from David Meacock - who is now a Councillor.

Here is my letter to Mr Walker:

Dear Mr Walker,

As one of the key movers in defeating Mr Howells' attempts to wreck public entertainment - by licensing churches - I write to protest at you having him appear as a guest DJ on your radio station.

I find it highly ironic that you should offer Mr Howells a job when his actions will likely deprive many jazz and light music musicians of theirs. For, as one of the Councillors who is looking at the draft Licensing policy of my District Council I can tell you that the likely added administrative burden on those new Licensees who previously have been exempt from licenses will be such as to make them decide to dispense with entertainment altogether: I certainly would if I was in their position, unless the pain of the bureaucracy was outweighed by the enormity of the profit produced from the small scale entertainment - unlikely.

I hope you will therefore not invite Mr Howells to appear again on your programme in protest at his un-necessary anti-live music legislation.

Cllr David G. Meacock.

ENDS.

The reason for copying it to all of you is to suggest that you get in touch with whoever is looking at your local District Council's draft Licensing policy - they all have a pretty free hand - and lobby to make sure that your local Council's Licensing Policy is as brief, and easy for everyone to handle and comply with, as possible.

You could find that Licensees have to produce a thick document of their own containing all their licensing policies. I'm trying to push for a simpler regime so that the Council sets out a list of requirements which will be applicable to most applicants, and so for the most part, applicants simply tick the applicable boxes rather like a mechanic ticks certain boxes and not others on a car service/MOT sheet according to which apply to your make/model of car.

Only individual exceptions to the 'norm' would then require a unique explanation. Some Officers may see creating the most bureaucratic system possible - on the pretext of complying with statutory requirements - as a way of making their and their fellow Officers' Council jobs more secure. However, Councillors will want to keep administration costs of their new licensing responsibilities requirement down, and thus minimise the need for extra officers to deal with this nonsense - since it will otherwise feed through into a percent or two on Council Tax.

Thus, in my opinion, there is everything to gain from taking an interest in your local Council's approach and little to lose. I suggest that making an issue of it in the local press will also help avoid Councillors rubber stamping un-necessarily bureaucratic local regimes and thus maximise maintenance of the status quo.

To paraphrase Voltaire, as I'm a classical pianist and conductor, I may not always like what I hear, but as long as it does not cause a nuisance, I will defend the right of promoters and their musicians to continue playing if that's what they want to do for their customers and fans.

Good luck.

David G. Meacock.
www.davidmeacock.com

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 02:22 AM

quit whining and do something then

Subject: RE: Kim Howells is Now After Trainspotters
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 08:27 AM

Mass Morris London 02-11-03