BS: Shame on the British

Subject: BS: Shame on the Romans.
From: GUEST,Red Eye
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 10:09 AM

Watched the made for TV drama on Bodicea, Queen of the Iceni tribe, who revolted against Roman occupation in the early part of Roman occupation here on this island. Saw from my British wife tears of revulsion against the treatment, starvation, rape & unlawful imprisonment of the then Celtic tribes under Roman rule, and then her elation for an oppressed people, rising up against the occupiers and the Celtic peoples wish to prefer 'dying on their feet, than living on their knees' under the Romans. The Romans considered this as acts of terrorism against themselves and acted without mercy.   

I know it was a made for TV and some facts were overlooked, but for once I saw a British Citizen realise and partly understand what the Irish have been going through for centuries under an illegal occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 10:19 AM

Spot on Red Eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Santa
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 10:54 AM

Of course, the odd massacre wouldn't have affected their opinion, would it?

But then anyone who takes a TV play and assumes it accurately reflects not only its subject but some other history altogether, are unlikely to be moved by anything other than his own prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 11:07 AM

I watched most of it until I fell asleep due to boredom.
What ever happened to the quality drama that used to be produced for British Television? Here we have a set of Romans who appeared to be talking 1980's business-speak. About the only thing they didn't say was that Lunch is for Wimps.
Where was the horror and passion of the characters? Where was the tension? Where the courage of the Celts? What happened to the Woad? Why was it just unutterable dross?
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 06:02 PM

Well there's a sweeping statement! All Brits bad then, is that what you're saying? Once again the inability to let go of the past means the sons being condemned for the sins of the Fathers. All of us who are aware of our history are also aware of the mistakes that were made, the forward thinking amongst us learn from them, and put them behind us.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 06:04 PM

The play next week is about the Irish invasion and occupation of Scotland which followed the Roman withdrawal. Should be even more unpleasant.Completely wiped out the language and culture of the indigenous inhabitants.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 06:15 PM

Illegal occupation?

They lost the war...

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: izzy
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 06:16 PM

Amazing he got one to marry him...

Greg, you fascinate me. Was it the Picts who were wiped out in Scotland?

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 06:23 PM

It was indeed. Anyone remember the Pictish for bodhran or craic?

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 06:34 PM

Interesting switch by Liam who clearly doesn't know the difference between British and English.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 06:36 PM

One word about the sack of London: Most of the population had left. There were few left save women, children, and old men. That didn't save them. The real Roman crime against the Iceni was putting a greedy, stupid, asshole in charge. Politics has never been nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 06:45 PM

I'd be interested in knowing why a Joeclone changed the name of this thread. It began with a question/comment on a TV show about the Romans beating up on the proto-British tribes(maybe Celtic, and lets not get into "what is a Celt," please), and was titled "Shame on the Romans." Suddenly, with the first response, the thread title changed to "Shame on the British."

--- The thread title was not changed. Apparently, Red Eye used a different title for the message. I once had a professor who often said, "Jumping to conclusions is the only exercise some people get." Of course, I can see why you might have thought it had been changed. ---
---Jeff (PA)---

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on Woolly Thinkers
From: izzy
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 06:53 PM

Creeping Britanophobia on the part of Liam, artbrooks --or would it be somewhat more precise to say Anglophobia? Because that's what the first two messages basically consist of.

Anyone can change titles...;)

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 07:13 PM

"Anyone can change titles...;) "

But only the Masters of Mudcat Universe can change the title somthat it sticks.

When are we going to have a play about the extirpation of the Neanderthalers? This place is crawling with Cro-Magnons...

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: izzy
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 07:23 PM

Strange, McG. Very strange...

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 07:36 PM

Obviously us Brits did not learn from our mistakes.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 07:37 PM

The Romans quit when they realized that British Beer is better so they said to Caesar 'seeya' and joined up with the locals for one big booze up. Hence the expression 'when with a Roman, let'um buy the beer'.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 07:50 PM

What has happened to real drama? All of the writers are now under 30 years of age, that's what.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: AliUK
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 10:07 PM

I hear that they are going to make a dramatic reconstruction about another bloody and vile invasion by the Brits and the Boshe, where whole communities were wiped out and cultures subsumed. It´s going to be called " Package Holidays - The Costas Offensive"

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 11:34 PM

I didn't make it past the advertisements--it sounded like a poor program with bad acting one doesn't usually associate with British productions. It seems to have lived up to my expectations.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 11:49 PM

"Most of the population had left. There were few left save women, children, and old men."

Misophist, surely you're not implying that men were the population?

Reminds me of someone saying "By and large, the British love their government, and so do most of the wives."

TIC, Misophist, but making a point, at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 12:02 AM

Londinium was without defenses. The population had time to leave and even a few places to go. For some reason there are always people who refuse. They died. When the 2nd Augusta ( I think they were the first legion to return) saw what had been done, they did their best to eradicate the Iceni. The Romans were big on making examples.

Not to say that Boudicca was entirely in the wrong, not by any means. When you commit atrocities, you had better win the war. Especially against the Romans. Remember the Servile Wars, 32,000 curcified.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 12:08 AM

Note to Ebbie: Londinium was a colonia, built and populated primarily by retired soldiers. I think it was about 30 years old at the time of the rebellion. Most of the short timers in England settled there. There was no 'real' town there before that.

PS, What's TIC?

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:18 AM

I saw part of this programe, it was the biggest load of shit i have ever seen, i switched it off after 5 minutes, and went to the pub.john

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:33 AM

'Tongue in cheek', Misophist. Point taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:50 AM

"Up the Iceni"

This thread reminds me of that scene in "The Life of Brian" when Brian is caught painting anti-Roman slogans on the wall.

I don't see TV any more. I can't abide the thought of having to PAY to watch commercials interrupted by the overblown, stilted mummery that hopes to pass for drama. All the rest are variations on crime dramas and "reality" shows.

Shame on the BBC for allowing the deterioration of their presentations.

There is more interesting action from the live web cam at "Old Faithful" geyser in Yellowstone National Park.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 02:39 AM

The Scots who crossed from Ireland didn't, as far as is known, bring rapine and pillage, but merely settled and retained their written language. The Pictish population apparently quite peacably absorbed the incomers [as they did the Vikings, in spite of horrific tales to the contrary]and probably adopted the language where the populations became mingled. The Picts had no written language as far as is known, and this leads to the false conclusion that they "died out".

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 03:45 AM

Shame on the BBC for allowing the deterioration of their presentations.

Thankfully it wasn't BBC this time round.

This time it was ITV.

BBC2 were showing a dramatisation of the life of Byron at the time...

Cheers


Steven

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 04:53 AM

Fascinating history from Boab. So the Irish arrived in Scotland completely peacably, and some years later virtually all the placename in the area they occupied are in the Gaelic new language they brought with them, and nobody speaks the old language anymore. Do you really think that is evidence of a totally peaceful visit in the Dark Ages? I would guess there might have been just the teensiest bit of coercion involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 06:30 AM

I have to agree with the people who criticised this programme, a right load of rubbish this whole Series. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:22 PM

I'd be inclined to think that, if the Scotification of Caledonia by the newcomers from Ireland had been a particularly lively affair, that would have left its mark in the way of stories and songs and so forth. They weren't backward about boasting about mayhem. That would go towards suggesting that it might have been a relatively peaceful affair, as those things go.

As has been pointed out, linguistic and cultural changes by no means necessarily imply that the people living there previously have been wiped out.

I imagine the DNA crew will come up with answers to these questions based on a little more than speculation. (Even if these aren't maybe as infallible as they are made out to be.)

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:37 PM

DNA information is still in its infancy, nd TV programmes tend to draw some big conclusions from small statistical differences. Small numbers of invaders(or peaceful colonisers) can also make a huge cultural difference in spite of tiny numbers. Look at the Normans in England and Ireland, or the British in India or Africa. but itis intriguing as McGrath points out there dont seem to be that many stories/legends/historical account of just what happened from a non-Gaelic situsation in Scotland in say 300AD to 500years later when a big chunk of the area was covered with Gaelic place-names, inhabited by Gaelic speakers with Gaelic names and ruled by Gaels. Two people have postulated a peaceful(or near peceful) process. I ahve my doubts. There is some account in the late Romano-British period of the start of the raids, but after that things go very vague. I agree, you would expect the Gaels (being a touch on the lively side when it comes to warfare) would have made a song and dance boasting about it. I'll have to look into this further, it's intriguing. Mind you, the English havent left many poems about their successful battles when arriving in England, but arrive they certainly did, and I doubt if that was a friendlt city-twinning ceremnoy either.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Arnie
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 04:11 PM

Like many here, I was looking forward to a quality programme in Boudicca but found it a total waste of viewing time. Why on earth did they have the Iceni and Romans speaking in modern idioms? Did you notice how nice and white and regular were Boudicca's teeth?? Looked like an advert for toothpaste. Anyway, on the Roman front there was much more interesting news today. A metal detector(ist?) has discovered a Roman metal pan in Staffs. It is inscribed with an engraving of Hadrian's wall and a person's name. It is thought to be a retirement gift to a Roman soldier who would have done duty on the Wall. What a blast from the past - wonder what his leaving do was like?

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 05:24 PM

Yuo should have watched the life of Byron on the other side -what a poet and what a complete pig dog. Great production and the guy who played Byron and used to be married to Angela Jolie but whose name escapes me-was excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 06:29 PM

Then there was the drama about Blair and Brown on C4 - that one didn't have any overdone sex in it (or underdone, either). I tried the Boudica thing, but I couldn't believe the Iceni royals would have been so grubby, and gave up on Nero and his mother. (Been there, saw that with I Claudius.) I couldn't believe the way the Romans were behaving at the beginning, and I found the speech to camera irritating. Byron could certainly have given the Caesars a run for their money in the dissipation stakes, but he did try to rescue Greece (must check up on Nero, there, though). I switched back to the last minutes of Boudica - I think some Roman wrote the battle part of the script - but what was that stuff about the daughter disappearing and then reappearing on the Embankment with a party of school- children? Her descendants live? Or time travel? By that time, I was waiting for the Hogwarts train to appear at Kings Cross.

The part I saw didn't convince me about the religion of the Iceni being important to them - I would think more intense belief and practice, but less effective Druid spells would be more realistic.

It was a really stupid evening of scheduling. Can anyone invent a recorder that records all the signals to be sorted out later, rerun the tape four times and watch everything in sequence?

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 07:48 PM

Blair, Brown, Boudicca and Byron. They seem to have left out Bush amnd Bakunin. Are they working through the alphabet?

Subject: RE: BS: Shame about British TV
From: Bassic
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 10:19 PM

I watched "The Life of Biran" on video, better than any of that stuff, and it was historical! He was a "very naughty boy" and his mum wouldnt let him come out to play.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Daithi
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 05:47 AM

History? An account of things that didn't happen written by people who weren't there...

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:22 AM

I liked the Prograame it was good.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Peg
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:54 AM

is this the one starring Alex Kingston? I thought that was still in production...

BTW, if anyone wants to read an amazing play on this very topic, try Howard Brenton's The Romans in Britain. Very controversial when it was presented in London some years ago (onstage acts of simulated buggery, etc.). It does draw a clear parallel between the Roman occupation of Britain and the British occupation of Ireland...

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 12:11 PM

I think that the parallels being drawn between the invasion of Britain by the Romans and the invasion of Ireland by Cromweel have similiarities that you can't ignore. Me, Irish of descent, loved when the Celts decided to rise and fight back the invaders of their land and,if they spilt blood,it would be blood spilt on their land and would mingle with their own ancestors. Some of it was quite stirring but I am very dubious about some of the facts. As far as I was aware, Boudicea kiled herself and her daughters with poison??

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Dead Horse
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 02:17 PM

Wasn't it Boudicca who wrote "Roll the old chariot along"?
If so, then this thread out to lose it's BS prefix (BG)

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 02:54 PM

Thinks Greg Stevens wondering about the fate of Pictish normal. I used wonder too. I read somewhere that Pict/ish was 'like' Welsh, but different. However that author might have lied, read some-other who lied or created the story.

Other possibilities are that the BBC makes lots of money telling fibs about it, when they already know the Picts spake Gaelic and it was the Scots who on being enslaved spread the lingo back to Ireland where yet earlier Picts lived but under terrible strain from all the drunks that arrived when the Romans kicked them out of England?

On the other hand, could not real English be the Welsh but hiding in Cardiff? In which case ye olde English is really South Walish but spoken by those fed a diet of Brains?

There is no doubt though that Cromwell was a major posteriorhole; besides helping behead a king he also ate ragwort which made him mighty smelly, so when he sat down all had to take a step backwards. Thus the old saying 'when Cromwell sits, the aire changeth - for the worse'.

King Blogger( Pictish for Cricketbat ) of Angster ( Ireland ) wasn't any better, of this it is writ 'f**t not before the king, for death is fouler'

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: izzy
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 03:32 PM

"The Scots (originally Irish,, but by now Scotch) were at this time inhabiting Ireland, having driven the Irish (Picts) out of Scotland; while the Picts (originally Scots) were now Irish (living in brackets) and vice versa. It is essential to keep these distinctions in mind (and verce visa.)"

Three cheers for the person who guesses what that is a quote from :D

Sounds rather like the brief run-down of ancient Scottish history that I was given at the beginning of my 1st Gaelic class...

Cheers,

Isabel

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: redhorse
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 05:33 PM

1066 and all that: where else?

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Grab
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 06:56 PM

Saw from my British wife tears of revulsion... for once I saw a British Citizen realise and partly understand what the Irish have been going through for centuries under an illegal occupation.

I hope for your sake that your wife never, ever reads this thread, or you'll be looking for your bollocks in the morning! What a damn stupid thing to say.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: izzy
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 08:48 PM

3 cheers for redhorse for guessing! Hip hip--oh, I think I'm getting tired already. Better get to bed.

Yes, Graham, it certainly was a damned stupid thing to say. One of the stupidest things I've ever read on a message-board --what does his poor wife have to do with the Troubles?. But she won't know he said it, because, like a true troll, he posted as a "guest".

For the nth time, I wish Max would make Mudcat members only.

:(

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 06:24 PM

It was Johnny Lee Miller who played Byron on BBC 2. Next Thursday he plays a young thug in the Canterbury Tales.

It doesn't really make sense to judge dead people by values developed after they died.

How come no-one on this thread has mentioned the occupation of Iraq by alien armies who are killing civilians without asking questions first?

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:01 AM

Are the civilians questioning them Kitty? That's a question of the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" category. Whether we think they should be there or not, put yourself in the shoes of a lot of scared kids, who definitely don't think they should be there. It's sad but not inexplicable.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Shame on the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:58 AM

These are trained professionals, in a peacetime army that has had a lot of time for training.

If they can't cope with this kind of situation, the primary blame lies with the people who are responsible for that training, and who have failed to provide them with adequate and appropriate training.