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BS: 12yr-old married in Romania
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Subject: BS: 12yr-old girl married in Romania From: Grab Date: 01 Oct 03 - 08:17 AM BBC link to story is here. The obvious verdict is "it shouldn't have happened". The next level of questioning though is: (a) to what extent is the BBC biasing the reporting; (b) is this actually typical of the Roma community in Romania or not (the BBC report suggests it is, but then quotes various Roma who oppose the marriage); and (c) to what extent is this just some old man hanging onto outdated values and refusing to move with the times? Oh, and (d): is this only in the news bcos the girl looks cute and they managed to get a camera crew there in time for the weddding? And after that, the question of: is this just a convenient stick for the media to beat the Roma community with? (If it happened in another community, would it be reported? cf. arranged marriages in India and Pakistan, sometimes involving girls from Britain or other Western countries.) For myself, I don't necessarily think the age thing is wrong. If she's 14 rather than 12 (reports aren't clear), maybe she is mature enough. Curiously, I think the maturity question is more likely to be on the boy's side - few boys at 15 are mature enough to fit into a settled relationship. But I do feel that the whole concept of arranged marriages is horrible and demeaning - it's the idea of women being no more than a possession of their father or husband, to be sold as they see fit, that disturbs me. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 01 Oct 03 - 08:41 AM Hi Graham, I know her family, I believe her aunt. Cooersive marrige is not a Roma coustom, and in fact, her aunt married against the wishes of her father. But, early marrige among the Roma is a complex issue, hard to judge from outside the community without all the facts. It is likely that you are right that this is a stick to beat the Roma with. One thing is that the age of first sexual experimentation among most western communities is as young as Roma marriges (and by the way 14 is more likely than 12 for what Roma would concider a young marriage - most American Roma are around 17 these days... from my experience) BUT, theirs is a community with vertually no sex outside marrige, and so, as with most cultures where that is the case, early marrige is a preventative against young experimentation out of wedlock. I don't know most of the details of the Cioba marrige, having seen the BBC report and nothing more, but, I think the story is likely more complex than the Rumanian government is presenting. First of all, Rumainia remains a nation with true persicution of Roma today, and this may be a way to remove some of that attention. Baxt hai sastimos Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Amos Date: 01 Oct 03 - 08:57 AM The BBC is being quite short-sighted in their reporting; is this not a traditional set of marital steps that have been in -place for centuries? They make it sound like an exception rather than a trsadition. The Brits themselves held marriages at or near those ages not so many centuries ago -- whe life expectancy was 35. I did not see anyone asking the girl what she thought about the whole thing. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Morticia Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:17 AM I am always a bit uncomfortable when the BBC take their nice,cosy, euro-centric, white middle-class values and then use them to judge other cultures. Re Grabs comments: I am not clear that an arranged marriage is more demeaning ( if it is demeaning) to the female than to the male....surely they are both equally in a non-choice position? And I think it is less about the woman or girl being 'sold' than an alliance of both families in most cases...or at least that is my experience from people I have spoken to....who didn't seem to feel much demeaned at all, I have to say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:23 AM Hi Amos: BBC did say something about the girl not being pleased with the marrige, however, in the film she seemed to be comporting herself as most Romani women do at weddings, I don't know their sourse for saying she was unhappy. In Romani culture one does not even yaun in mixed company, as it has conotations of going to bed, which has conotations of sex, so one can emagine that Romani brides are supposed to look reserved during their marrige celibration, which is how she seemed to me on the film, not pouting, looking unhappy or crying, just looking attentively present as with most Romani brides. Love in the Roma community is more like that of the courts of the middle ages. It appears to me that one marries out of respect for family then grows to love the partner. It is not better or worse than other systems, and results often in powerfully committed relationships. Among Roma in the US, divorce is about as common as other US communities, marriges being disolved in the Romani Kris (courts) and both in the couple likely to remarry within a year. Either the husband or wife can move for divorse, and as the couples get older the chance of long term marriage improves. A result of sexual relations being discovered during first marriage rather than during dating is that there is no such thing as an unwanted baby, or an abandoned woman. There is statisticly little domestic violence, as there is a reverse dowery, a bride price, which acts as an insurenece against domestic violence, as if there is a divorce and a showing of violence that bride price is forfit. Different is not always worse. I hope the couple good life, good fortune and happiness and an improved human rights environment in Rumania. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:26 AM Hi Morticia: You are in fact quite right. In fact, here in the US, if the couple do not want to get married, there is not way the families can force a wedding. And, I know that others in the Cioba family have married against their parents choice, which remains an option here as well. One of the girls Aunts is one of the most accomplished Romani poets, perhaps of all time, and I have found them to be an accomplished and remarkable family. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Amos Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:28 AM That bride-price strategem -- which appears in the most far-flung and simple tribal customs -- is pretty clever, isn't it? Maybe we oughta make it mandatory! You break it (the marriage), you forfeit the price. I, too, wish them good life together; and I hope they recover from their exposure to the press in good order. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:31 AM PS In about 30 years, whe will likely be the matriach of her extended family and much much more powerful than her young husband... Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: GUEST Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:04 AM who cares? the only true way to get rid of them anyways is to breed them out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:09 AM The report I read from AP (with accompanying pictures)showed the girl to be very upset at this. There are photos of her running out of the ceremony in tears. "I don't want to marry, I am choosy and I have refused several marriage partners my parents presented to me," is a quote. The story also said that the bridesmaids chanted slogans against the grooms. The bride went through with the ceremony but was also heard to say "what marriage?" after the ceremony ended. It appears that in this culture, like all cultures, youth do rebel against traditions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Tam the Bam (Nutter) Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:25 AM What about Jerry Lee Lewis who married his 13 year old cousin, in America. Tom |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:29 AM Forcing young people into unwanted relationships, traditional or not, violates the rights and freedoms which are expected in a free society. The Romanian authorities are right in moving against the practice, which is widespread in India, Africa and other areas, but which cannot be tolerated in a country with a democratic society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Wolfgang Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:33 AM Another account of the story (from AP) If what is reported is close to truth I don't see how it can be defended. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Ebbie Date: 01 Oct 03 - 12:15 PM Just for the record, Ron Olesko, the quoted statement seems to be from the 17-year old cousin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 01 Oct 03 - 12:57 PM You are correct Ebbie. I mis-read the story and it was the cousin who made the quote "I don't want to marry...." However it was reported that the bride said "what marriage?" and the rest of my e-mail follows the AP story about the young girl's rebellion against the marriage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 01 Oct 03 - 04:38 PM Q said: The Romanian authorities are right in moving against the practice, which is widespread in India, Africa and other areas, but which cannot be tolerated in a country with a democratic society. What do the rights or wrongs of the practice have to do with a democratic society? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Oct 03 - 05:57 PM In a democratic society, individuals should have the rights to their liberty and freedom as long as the rights of others are not infringed. Enforced marriage, female circumcision and similar customs infringe on the rights of the individual and thus are a form of slavery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: NicoleC Date: 01 Oct 03 - 06:26 PM One thing to keep in mind is that in a society like ours, we assume that a bride price = selling. In truth, though, demanding a price in exchange for a daughter is a symbol of her value to her family, and it is compensation for the family's loss of her labor/goods/self. Nor is it unusual for a groom who can't pay the price to make up the difference in his own labor. Traditions like dowries are a sign that women are valued less, because the family pays to make the daughter go away -- she is considered a burden, and the dowry is compensation for the man taking on that burden. I feel sorry for the girl, but her family IS trying to make provisions for her safety and well-being. I may disagree with the method, but she is luckier than many girls around the world who are considered a burden and ignored or denied care. And if the groom is 15, it's not really that bad. She certainly doesn't LOOK 12 -- if she's 12 she's very mature for her age. Fortunately, it's not as if she was being married to a much older man. My gr-gr-grandmother was 13 when she married a 57 year old man because her family always told her she would have to -- eventually she did it "willingly." No one seemed to think it untoward at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 01 Oct 03 - 07:03 PM Slovakia is sterilizing Roma women against their will, in the Czech republic two walled Ghetos were made, in the USA there is systematic police profiling of this community, In england a young Irish Traveller was beaten to death in June, in most nations that had general employment of Roma under colectivism there is now pograms and almost total unemployment.... I think this is an issue raised to divert attention. In interviews showed tonight in the US, the Bori (young bride) said she was excited. Lets have a wee reality check here. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Ron Olesko Date: 01 Oct 03 - 07:24 PM Reality check Larry? Your points are well taken, although they really are a sidetrack to the story of the 12 year old girl. Actually they are much more important than this story, but for the sake of this thread they are drifts. The earlier reports (and pictures) showed the girl to be very upset - she ran out of the ceremony in tears, tried to deny that she got married, and her bridesmaids chanted insults at the groom. Maybe that is part of the tradition, I don't know. The Roma's do face extreme prejudice and crimes against them, but the original point of this thread was a discussion of a 12 year old girl... who actually might be much older. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 01 Oct 03 - 08:04 PM The report I just saw on NBC showed her smiling after the wedding saying that she was very excited. The degree of speculation, from a government which is a major oppresor of Roma makes me wonder. What is the sourse that the bridesmaid's chanted insults? How many non-Roma at the wedding whould have known what the bridesmaids were saying in that most likely they were speaking Romaness, not Rumanian. Folks may be cautious about the sourses of the story. I for one was not there, and it would not be the first time lies were told about Roma. Cheers Larry PS It is not certain if she is 12 or 14. If she is 14 that is a legal marriage in Rumania. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Blues=Life Date: 01 Oct 03 - 08:40 PM Larry, I know it's absolutely impossible for a Roma to do anything wrong. But you are an officer of the court, are you not? A trained lawyer? Hypothetically, do you not have any problem with a 12 year old girl being given in marriage to a 15 year old, and having the marriage consumated? (Assume it's a hypothetical situation, and that these are the actual facts.) What if it's a 12 year old Baptist schoolgirl in North Carolina? Not a problem? Please don't strawman this, I really am curious about your opinion of this particular case. More info Statutory Rape It looks like legal age for marriage in Romania is 18. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Ron Olesko Date: 01 Oct 03 - 09:45 PM Larry, Here is the story I read, from AP: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030929/ap_on_re_eu/gypsy_wedding_1 I'm sorry if the link is long. Here are some of the paragraphs I read, from AP writer Alison Mutler: " After the ceremony, the bride stalked out and refused to look at the groom, who walked uncomfortably two steps behind. "What marriage?" Ana Maria said after the ceremony. Her 12 bridesmaids supported her rebellion, chanting, "Out with Birita!" — referring to groom Mihai Birita. Even before the ceremony, it was clear the bride was reluctant. "She has been crying all day, but the marriage will go ahead with or without her," Dana Cherendea, adviser to her father, said after the girl stormed out. " There is also a slideshow on the above link, showing he bride crying and storming out (supposedly) from the wedding. We can argue about the legal age of marriage in any country. Personally, I don't think anyone is mature enough until they are about 30!!! :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:16 PM Just dropping in for a moment, I will look up the sites above tommorow... according to the NBC story, it showed her walking out in the middle, then walking back in, and after saying she was excited. As to the Roma can do no wrong, that is silly, as far as outsiders passing judgement on a culture they can not understand and do not tollerate to breath the air, I am not overly impressed. Cheers Larry PS... Blues = life, what do I feel about a fourteen year old baptist getting married? Well to another tean ager with concent, none of my biz, I don't feel any different about that then I do about tean sexual experimentation, it is a fact of life, and is best dealt with by teaching tollerance and responcibility. Each culture does much of the same thing in a different way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Blues=Life Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:21 PM Twelve, Larry. The number is 12. You're making a straw man. Again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Ron Olesko Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:12 PM According to the story, she did come back and went through with the ceremony. The AP story also said she would not walk with the groom when they left, the bridal party chanted insults toward the groom, and an "adviser" intimated that she would be "disciplined". Where would a young girl in her situation go? What sort of option did she have? Most of the condemned on death row also walk to their execution without struggling. None of us really know what happened in Romania. She may have been 12, she might have been older. Even if you take age out of the equation, was she forced into this marriage? As to "tolerating" cultural differences, there are things that we don't understand but that doesn't mean we should "tolerate". Some would argue that lynchings came out of a culture, obviously it isn't something we can "tolerate". When one human being MAY (I emphasis MAY because we really aren't sure of the truth hear) have their rights violated, is that something we should "tolerate"??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: GUEST Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:17 PM The "business" between a husband and his wife should not be the nosey business of ANYONE else.
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Ron Olesko Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:37 PM You are wrong guest. When someone is possibly being hurt it is everyones business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: GUEST Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:43 PM but they couldnt possibly be getting hurt, ron. they're gypsies after all. they can do no wrong. just everyone else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: open mike Date: 02 Oct 03 - 03:48 AM one of the papers labelled the picture as "the teenagers" well, a 12 year old is not a teen ager, but a pre-teen. when you turn 13, the term teenager applies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Dave Bryant Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:23 AM I wonder if Bill Wyman is thinking of going to Romania . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:58 AM I'd suspect that some of the things in that AP story could actually be misunderstandings. Tears at weddings are pretty common, and bridesmaids "chanting slogans against the groom" could easily be a distortion of the kind of messing around that is common enough in any wedding. Again screaming at reporters and shouting "leave me alone" could be interpreted in several ways. Or perhaps "Alison Mutler" got it all right, and has a good enough understanding of Romanian and of Romany and of wedding customs to know exactly what was going on(and I'm not being sarcastic there, perhaps she does; but I don't thgink it can necessarily be taken for granted.) One thing - that quote "what wedding?" set me wondering whether this actually was a wedding as such. Many cultures have formal betrothal ceremonies which can take place well before the actual wedding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: Wolfgang Date: 02 Oct 03 - 07:46 AM The position of many here, including me, is that if the report is correct (or large parts of it) we do not agree with what has been done to the girl. That's all. Is anyone here who does not agree with that? Larry, your post from 01 Oct 03 - 07:03 PM seems to indicate to me you think everything would be fine even if the report is true? Is that your position? Respect for different cultures does not mean to accept anything what seesm to be natural or acceptable behaviour in another culture (or a subculture in a country). How much difference to accept is often difficult to judge. In a recent law case our highest court has accepted that in religious ceremonies Jews and Moslems may violate explicit German laws when slaughtering animals. However, no German court would accept, lets say, a young Kurdish man killing his sister for having had intercourse with another man before wedlock. Somewhere in between these extremes a compromise will have to be found. I'm not interested in this particular case and I'm not much interested whether the report is accurate or not. I am more interested if you would think that behaviour had to be accepted by Romania assuming the girl's age given (and other details) were true. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 02 Oct 03 - 08:22 AM Let me be aboulutely clear... Every day, I recieve calls from Roma all over the world who face the most barbaric treatment in every country on the planit, exept Australia, which has a Roma population, but seems that they are getting on... In Germany, recently, young out of work Germans were paid to lecture Roma held in camps on your boarders Wolfgang, on how to get a job - reparations for being burned in the ovens was to pay German youth to be motivational speakers. In Solvakia hospitals have sterilized hundereds of Roma women and some Roma men, against their will - this is still going on. In Rumania Roma are set upon - beaten and killed for the fact that they are Roma, after the killing of Cercescu priests blessed the crowds that went out to burn down Roma villiges. In the United States there are associations of police officers who create racial profiling materials which concider meer presence by Roma to be a crime. Last June in England, a sixteen year old Traveller (a community also racialized as Gypsy) was set upon by a mob that beat him to death, during the war in Kosovo, Roma fleeing to Italy were not allowed off the refugee trains, other Kosovars were let off and the Roma were sent back. In Macidonia a pretean Romani boy was saved from being ripped appart by UN troops who stooped Albainians who had him by the arms and legs and were attempting to pull him limb from limb. In the Czech Republic, just one of the scores of Roma who were murdered by skin heads, Teresa, a young Roma mother was thrown from a bridge and drowned, her killers got an average of four months in jail. This list could go on for pages more... and I don't see ANY of you posting outrage, or getting out and doing anything. There are NO funded civil rights organizations for Roma in the US, though there are over a million here, with a mirade of human rights abuses. So do I care if a twelve year old is cooersed into marriage, yes. Do I trust the sourse of the informaiton, absoultly not. Roma people are accused to this day of stealing children and chickens. The racist above who says they should be bread out goes unchallenged here and the poster who says be cautious about information in popular culture about Roma is accused of being blindly pro Gypsy, When you go out and DO for the Roma who are being killed, pushed on, steralized, excluded, I will take it serriously when your hearts bleed over a Bori "forced" into marriage. As ever Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:31 AM Come on Larry, your sense of outrage is understandable, but to put the blame on everyone else is ridiculous. I don't doubt anything that you say, the events you describe are truly horrible, but those stories have not been reported to a world wide press. Of course it is wrong to ignore those cases, but that is reality. The "Fix" comes in what form those of you who KNOW of these issues take to bring attention to the problems. Creating anomosity with those of us who may be sympathetic and look for enlightenment is not exactly a smart tactic. You mention that there are no civil rights organizations for the Roma here in the U.S. I would ask, why hasn't anyone started one? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 02 Oct 03 - 10:21 AM Dear Ron: I have been actively working in Roma rights in the USA for over a decade. Every request for funding has been turned down. I am not alone in this, a very accomplished film maker, I haven't asked if I could use the name, so I wont, whose films have won awards and been on PBS and broadly, internationally seen, is working on a second Roma film. I have seen rushes and it is spectacular. A grant proposal to a funding sourse which funds films which shed light on marginalized people for the purpose of confronting steriotypes was turned down, as they said "Gypsies are not on our list of such people". After a long struggle to get a Roma appointed to the national commission on Holocaust rememberance, the current resident of the White House has not placed a Roma on the committee. Start one. I wish it was that easy, I spend most of my waking working life working on begging lawyers to help Roma facing jail, facing deportation, seeking safe haven, starting one is not the problem, getting a salery to care for those the world does not care for is the problem. These issues are not in the press!? Of course they are. On back pages while this minor event is front page news. When a Rom sneezes it is a plauge, when a Rom is murdered it is just another dead Gypsy. The above issues have been the subject of songs I posted on the Mudcat, but like most things to do with Roma, the issues are not memorable. If "everyone's" appathy is not responcible for the condition of the Romani people in the world, what is? Ron, you are a very decent guy, it comes accross in your posts. The day you sit accross the table from a fifteen year old Romani girl who spent days in a darkened jail cell in New Jersey for no crime, being held, she is told until she identifies members of her community, her family from police survelance photos taken at weddings and funerals, then I emagine you will understand my outrage. When you try, as I do, to do something about it, you will understand my fustration. All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Date: 02 Oct 03 - 10:39 AM Larry, I can feel your frustration and I while I can't sit in your shoes I do think I understand where you are coming from. You shouldn't be alone in your fight. I don't know enough about the communities you represent, but the pictures that you and others have presented show a traveling community that try to solve their own problems. In a case of civil rights abuse, help from outside of the community is needed. The case last year of the supposed a child abuse shocked a lot of people into the realization that an traveling community even existed here in the U.S. Education takes time and patience, which I understand is extremely difficult. Finding funding is extremely difficult for ANY project. I've worked in commercial and non-commercial broadcasting and production for over 23 years. I've seen many worthwhile projects get turned down. You can't let one (or even dozens) of slammed doors stop you if you truly believe in the project. I once interviewed Marjorie Guthrie, the late widow of Woody Guthrie, who talked to me about her attempts to find funding for research for Huntington's Disease. She finally reached a congressman who was willing to help and she said something that will always stick with me - "never underestimate the power of a single individual". Keeping focused on the goal will eventual get the result. Outrage tends to polarize. Working with people gets results. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 12yr-old married in Romania From: InOBU Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:10 PM You are absoultly right, Ron. One day we will have lunch and I will tell you what this fight has cost me personally, in many ways it has cost me many of the esentials of life. However, it is work few if any others are doing. So, I keep doing it. I am following this up with a short PM. Cheers Larry |
