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Songs classified to a coded format

The Fooles Troupe 03 Oct 03 - 01:43 AM
Long Firm Freddie 03 Oct 03 - 02:08 AM
The Fooles Troupe 03 Oct 03 - 02:24 AM
pavane 03 Oct 03 - 08:28 AM
Helen 03 Oct 03 - 08:55 AM
Helen 03 Oct 03 - 09:02 AM
The Fooles Troupe 03 Oct 03 - 09:14 AM
Padre 03 Oct 03 - 09:26 AM
pavane 03 Oct 03 - 10:46 AM
Steve Parkes 03 Oct 03 - 11:28 AM
pavane 03 Oct 03 - 01:16 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 03 - 03:08 PM
Helen 04 Oct 03 - 12:34 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Oct 03 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,MCP 04 Oct 03 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,MCP 04 Oct 03 - 07:18 AM
Susanne (skw) 04 Oct 03 - 10:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Oct 03 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,MCP 04 Oct 03 - 02:11 PM
katlaughing 04 Oct 03 - 07:14 PM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Oct 03 - 10:27 PM
BK Lick 31 Aug 05 - 05:28 AM
BK Lick 07 Jul 07 - 12:57 AM
JohnInKansas 07 Jul 07 - 03:16 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 07 Jul 07 - 03:36 PM
JohnInKansas 07 Jul 07 - 05:45 PM
Jack Campin 07 Jul 07 - 07:07 PM
Bill D 08 Jul 07 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Jim Dixon 13 Jul 07 - 03:24 PM
Jack Campin 13 Jul 07 - 04:28 PM
Jim Dixon 24 Jul 07 - 11:49 PM
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Subject: Songs classified to a coded format
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 01:43 AM

Bit tricky to work out a thread name for this & squueze it in...

The "Pulse in German Songs" thread reminded me... the article referred to "A large computer database of German folksong [SNIP] The data is provided in the form of melodic lines in the local ESAC code. "

I remember seeing an old book in our BCC library many years ago (they regularly dispose of old useful books!). It coded popular songs on the basis of how the tune went, along the lines of note, tone up, two tones down, etc. It was written, I am sure, by one of the two Gentlemen who for many years appeared in the BBC Radio Shows "My Word" & "My Tune (or Song)" - names escape me at the momment.

Anybody able to help me identifty this book, as I don't really know what to search for it under?

Also any discussion of coding systems (NOT ABC, NOT MIDI, etc) designed to identify similarity of tunes - whether the system used in the book I referred to is that referred to in the German Folksongs article, I don't know. Also I know nothing about this "ESAC code".

Wolfgang may know something if he is prowling around - just speak his name.... :-)

Robin


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 02:08 AM

The radio programme Foolstroupe is referring to was called My Music, I think, which was the musical version of My Word.

Two of the panellists were Frank Muir and Denis Norden, a very fine comedy writing partnership who were also residents on My Word, but neither would have claimed to be anything more than enthusiastic amateurs, musically speaking.

The other two panellists were Ian Wallace, a rich baritone singer (Mud, Mud, Glorious Mud written by Flanders and Swann) and John Amiss, who was the classical buff and an extraordinarily proficient whistler.

The chairman was Steve Race, a keyboard player with a jazz background.

As for the book, I'm afraid I have no idea!

Best of luck in your search, F,

LFF


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 02:24 AM

Ah, on My Music,
either FM or DN, used to be given very obscure comedic songs, whichever one it was, knoew lots of old obscure songs - he may be the target - I remember at the time I saw the book that the name was the same as one of those two, but, it was probably 20 years ago...

Robin


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: pavane
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:28 AM

The latest version of my program HARMONY provides the simplest version of this. (Show up-down, from the Show menu on the score screen)

It displays a string containing the letters d u and =

d means the next note is DOWN (lower in pitch)
u means the next note is UP (hiogher in pitch)
= means the next note is the same pitch

I could elaborate this if you ever track down a full description of the system. Note that HARMONY can import tunes from abc or (simple) MIDI

(Download HARMONY from http://www.greenhedges.com )


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Helen
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:55 AM

As I recall, BruceO, (Bruce Olsen) was using a similar system on his website, or knew of a similar system. I remember reading one of his posts a couple of years ago or more. I don't know if he is still a member but I have recently seen a couple of posts from him and he usually puts in a reference to his website.

I'll check out the threads I think he has posted to lately.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Helen
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:02 AM

Try here: Bruce Olsen

It might be worth emailing him because he is very knowledgeable about tunes and music

Helen


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:14 AM

Yes, thanks for the adv guy, but NOT what I want to talk about...

GET YOUR OWN THREAD!!!!

:-)

unless Helen, you ARE referring to what I want... :-)

Robin


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Padre
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:26 AM

On pages 724-727 of "The Hymnal 1940 Companion" is 'A Melodic Index' which classifies the tunes based on accent (strong or weak beat) tonality (major or minor key) and interval (whether the next progression is up or down). Could such a system help you in your search, Foolstroupe? If so, I can send you a copy of the table.

Padre


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: pavane
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 10:46 AM

Quote:

Also any discussion of coding systems (NOT ABC, NOT MIDI, etc) designed to identify similarity of tunes

I thought my post was relevant to that request. I also offered to implement the system if it was found.

(And who said that threads 'belonged' to anyone?)


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 11:28 AM

I remember the "UD=" system being aired on the BBC's Tomorrow's World years ago, in (I think) Raymond Baxter's day. The proposalwas that yoiu could go into a music shop and ask for "that one that goes [whistle the tune]". I'd be interested to know how far it got -- it's a clever idea.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: pavane
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 01:16 PM

Padre, I would be interested in seeing it


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:08 PM

I tried twice to post to this thread last night and it wouldn't 'take'...so...

About a year ago, I started a thread about this issue and a site I found... read the thread here or go directly to the page about music notation and identification at Name-this-tune.com


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Helen
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:34 AM

Yes, I was talking about coding music.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 05:17 AM

THIS THREAD IS MINE MINE MINE!!!!!

Sorry, ;-)

Yes Padre, please give us tehe info.

oops, but that typo is too good to remove...

Steve, please continue - it looks like what BillD mentions - it looks related to what I was looking for.

Sorry pavane, just jesting a little, but it is probably worth keeping your great idea seperate from what I was originally on about - but do give us the thread name & id here (in a blue clicky)

The Parsons code mentioned by Bill D is similar to what I was talking about, but I was looking for that particular book, which is doubtless out of print now - it referenced tunes before 1970, as it was printed sometime around or before then - I found it in the early 1970's and it was an old book then.

Helen, I'll follow up on your line later.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 07:17 AM

I think the book you're looking for is the Directory of Tunes and Musical Themes - Denys Parsons and George Spencer-Brown, 1975. It has about 10,000 classical themes and about 4000 popular songs, classified by the Parson's code(DUR). It is listed as out of print by some sources, but you might look at this German site Directory, which seems to have it for 39 Euros.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 07:18 AM

Incidentally, it had a foreword by Bernard Levin, which I think was the connection with the music programme mentioned above.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 10:30 AM

A quick search of Frank Muir's autobiography based on the index does not turn up a book on a musical subject, written either solo or with Denis Norden. Not conclusive, of course, but still, you'd expect him to mention it, wouldn't you?


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 01:43 PM

Thanks MCP,

It may have well been Denis PARSONS, which over the years I got confused with Denis Norden... the published date may be close to when I saw it, but I thought it was older than that.. oh well

one would hope that a good idea would not be brushed aside, but habg around and be taken up by others...

Robin


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 02:11 PM

You may have been mixing up the music quiz programmes. Bernard Levin, who wrote the foreword for the book, was a panellist on Face The Music - another music quiz (with its "tune played on a silent piano keyboard" round for you to recognise the tune).

There was some earlier work (late 40s) on a similar idea, but that just transposed the each theme to C (or Cm) for searching purposes, obviously still needing the searcher to be able to write the notes of the theme. See The Search For A Notation Index, which also suggests that, in 2001 at least, people were advertising the Parsons book although they didn't have copies. Things may have changed though.

The Name-this-tune.com site referenced above also has some information on using a similarity measure with the DRUM code to give the best matches (rather than needing a single exact match).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 07:14 PM

There is an explanation of the ESAC code at Beyond Midi - The Handbook of Music Codes.

Here's what it says:

The Essen Associative Code (EsAC), developed by Helmut Schaffrath, has been the backbone of a series of projects in the transcription and analysis of folksong repertories. More than 14,000 works have been encoded in a database framework with six basic fields that supports twelve basic search types aimed at identifying musical similarity. Plaine and Easie Code, developed in the Sixties by Barry Brook and Murray Gould, has been the basis of the musical incipit databases of the Répertoire International des Sources Musicales (RISM). Almost 300,000 incipits have now been transcribed in databases containing more than 100 fields. These materials are used both to catalogue works and to locate matching and derivative versions of works in multiple locations.


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 10:27 PM

I do vaguely remember "Face the music"
and thanks for the ESAC link

The book I remember had no music notation, just ups, down, same notes, although I thought it had a mention of how big the steps were - I may hav eben mistaken. It may have been in the 1980's I saw, it - it was not a brand new book.

Robini


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: BK Lick
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:28 AM

There's a very fine implementation of this system known as Musipedia (click here). Highly recommended.
—BK


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: BK Lick
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 12:57 AM

Might be useful to refresh this old thread. Automatic music recognition has advanced and there's now Midomi which searches a database for a musical phrase you sing or hum into your computer's microphone.

It's pretty slick, but I think the Musipedia. based on a Parsons Code (U, D, R) implementation as described above, appears to be more efficient and more precise.

For example, entering RUUUDRDUUD into the Musipedia folk songs category turns up just two exact matches: On Top Of Old Smoky and Scottish du pays de Retz. Humming those notes for Midomi turns up 27 "similar" melodies the best matches being Puff The Magic Dragon and On Top Of Spaghetti.

Forty five years ago I was doing research in coding theory and was excited by Denys Parsons's melodic motion code -- even programmed a simple implemention with a very small database but, of course, computers back then were nowhere near ready for such a task. (BTW, my only modest claim to fame is as the eponymous co-author of a well-known coding algorithm -- a Google search for Kallick and algorithm turns up 700 hits. Sic transit gloria mundi, eh?)
—BK


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 03:16 PM

Musipedia found a couple of trad things quite quickly, even with my inept input. (I cheated and just keyed in a note sequence, with timing ignored.)

I'll have to think about whether I want to torture it with something like "Take Five" or "Black and Tan Fantasy" to explore the range of tunes in the data base. I'm not sure I can get them put in accurately enough - without cheating by copying from a score. I'll need to explore a bit to see if I can figure out "best practices" for both Musipedia and Midomi.

The refresh is appreciated, since I apparently didn't make very good notes the first time through, but especially for the addition of the new links.

John


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 03:36 PM

When I did my old conversion of the DT to ABC (a few years ago), I did generate Parsons coding for it - it's fairly straightforward from the abc. I haven't done it for my most recent conversion, but I was thinking about it. It seems a useful search to have available with the DT tunes, for those times when you're looking for that song whose annoying tune is running round your head!

Mick


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:45 PM

Some years back we had a guitarist (loosely used) in our group in camp at a festival who unfortunately couldn't/wouldn't sing, and only played backup chords. He repeatedly "played a few bars" of lots of tunes for us, with the question "do you guys know this one?"

Unfortunately again, the only songs he knew were old country/western ones, that all used exactly the same 3 chords, mostly in the same sequence and with the same timing.

He totally failed to understand why we were unable to just jump right in and pick up on "his songs." (He heard - in his head - a lot more than what he played, and couldn't understand that we didn't hear "the rest of it" when he played for us.)

We often encounter a very similar problem with persons who have a song "stuck" and want to identify it. Getting it out of the head where it's stuck in a form that others can use to try help is sometimes the really difficult part.

Once that part's done ... we've probably got some really useful tools here.

John


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:07 PM

There have been lots of tune coding systems over the years. The earliest I know of was in Le Cle du Caveau, a metrical index of French songs (about 3000 of them) from the early 19th century.

The biggest is probably the National Tune Index, a US project that indexed about 20,000 British tunes from 17th and 18th century books and manuscripts.

There is Charles Gore's Scottish Fiddle Tune Index, which covers about 20,000 Scottish tunes from c.1700-c.1900. It is supposedly based on a theme coding system developed for Irish music by Breandan Breathnach, which I have never seen in use.


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 11:00 AM

amazing...about the only thing I can play on a piano is "Tennessee Waltz" (specifically by Pee Wee King!)on the black keys...and I did the first 9 notes, and that was the first hit (specifically by Pee Wee King!). They have something!


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 03:24 PM

I believe I have a book similar to the one Foolestroupe described in the first post--however, I think it covers only themes from classical music, not popular tunes.

It has practically no usefulness to me, yet I found the concept so fascinating that I bought it anyway when I found it at a used book sale.

If you know a tune that you want to look up, you first transpose it into the key of C, and then write it down as a sequence of notes, for example, CCAGB etc., ignoring the duration of the notes. Then you look it up in the index where all the tunes are listed alphabetically according to their note pattern. The index then refers you to a page where the tune is written out in standard notation (not the whole tune--usually just one or two lines of it) along with identifying information.

Great concept, no? I see no reason why the same thing couldn't be done for popular or folk tunes.

I don't remember the name of the book and I won't be able to look it up for a few days. If you're interested, please PM me to remind me to look it up.


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 04:28 PM

The idea Jim Dixon describe is exactly what the National Tune Index and Gore's book do in fact do for folk tunes, though the coding is a bit different - since folk tunes often have variants, it makes sense to code just the stressed notes.


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Subject: RE: Songs classified to a coded format
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 11:49 PM

Well, nobody PM'd me, so I guess nobody cares, but I'll post the information anyway. The book is called "A Dictionary of Musical Themes," by Harold Barlow and Sam Morgenstern, New York: Crown Publishers, 1948.

It looks like a lot of libraries have it, and there have been many editions.


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