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Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding

Max 03 Oct 03 - 02:47 PM
Amos 03 Oct 03 - 02:55 PM
Mary in Kentucky 03 Oct 03 - 02:58 PM
C-flat 03 Oct 03 - 02:58 PM
Ron Olesko 03 Oct 03 - 02:58 PM
nutty 03 Oct 03 - 02:58 PM
open mike 03 Oct 03 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,MMario 03 Oct 03 - 03:06 PM
Bassic 03 Oct 03 - 03:08 PM
Max 03 Oct 03 - 03:09 PM
Charley Noble 03 Oct 03 - 03:10 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 03 - 03:15 PM
Mooh 03 Oct 03 - 03:15 PM
Bassic 03 Oct 03 - 03:16 PM
katlaughing 03 Oct 03 - 03:31 PM
katlaughing 03 Oct 03 - 03:32 PM
wysiwyg 03 Oct 03 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,MMario 03 Oct 03 - 03:35 PM
Harry Basnett 03 Oct 03 - 03:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 03 - 03:45 PM
katlaughing 03 Oct 03 - 03:47 PM
John MacKenzie 03 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,MMario 03 Oct 03 - 03:49 PM
artbrooks 03 Oct 03 - 03:56 PM
Uncle_DaveO 03 Oct 03 - 04:00 PM
Max 03 Oct 03 - 04:05 PM
Padre 03 Oct 03 - 04:08 PM
Bassic 03 Oct 03 - 04:10 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 03 - 04:14 PM
Uncle_DaveO 03 Oct 03 - 04:14 PM
Bassic 03 Oct 03 - 04:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 03 - 04:22 PM
Bassic 03 Oct 03 - 04:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Oct 03 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Oct 03 - 04:34 PM
Max 03 Oct 03 - 04:45 PM
Barry Finn 03 Oct 03 - 05:14 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 03 - 05:15 PM
Bill D 03 Oct 03 - 05:19 PM
Liz the Squeak 03 Oct 03 - 05:20 PM
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wysiwyg 03 Oct 03 - 05:22 PM
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Bill D 03 Oct 03 - 05:29 PM
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Clinton Hammond 03 Oct 03 - 05:32 PM
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Max 03 Oct 03 - 05:34 PM
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Dave Swan 03 Oct 03 - 06:02 PM
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GUEST,Russ 03 Oct 03 - 06:28 PM
RichM 03 Oct 03 - 07:01 PM
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Bill D 03 Oct 03 - 08:00 PM
wysiwyg 03 Oct 03 - 08:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 03 - 08:19 PM
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Mary in Kentucky 03 Oct 03 - 08:36 PM
harpgirl 03 Oct 03 - 08:41 PM
Bassic 03 Oct 03 - 09:03 PM
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Mary in Kentucky 03 Oct 03 - 10:22 PM
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GUEST 03 Oct 03 - 10:49 PM
katlaughing 04 Oct 03 - 12:13 AM
simon-pierre 04 Oct 03 - 12:24 AM
simon-pierre 04 Oct 03 - 12:26 AM
Max 04 Oct 03 - 12:31 AM
maire-aine 04 Oct 03 - 12:55 AM
Stilly River Sage 04 Oct 03 - 01:05 AM
Linda Kelly 04 Oct 03 - 05:11 AM
Trevor 04 Oct 03 - 05:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Oct 03 - 06:05 AM
John Robinson (aka Cittern) 04 Oct 03 - 07:45 AM
dermod in salisbury 04 Oct 03 - 08:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Oct 03 - 11:47 AM
Midchuck 04 Oct 03 - 12:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Oct 03 - 12:35 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Oct 03 - 01:04 PM
open mike 04 Oct 03 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Peter from Essex 04 Oct 03 - 01:20 PM
Menolly 04 Oct 03 - 01:23 PM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Oct 03 - 01:40 PM
Max 04 Oct 03 - 03:54 PM
Stephen L. Rich 04 Oct 03 - 04:04 PM
Cattail 04 Oct 03 - 07:11 PM
vectis 04 Oct 03 - 08:02 PM
catspaw49 04 Oct 03 - 08:53 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Oct 03 - 08:59 PM
Guy Wolff 04 Oct 03 - 09:37 PM
Guy Wolff 04 Oct 03 - 09:42 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 04 Oct 03 - 10:32 PM
Mary in Kentucky 04 Oct 03 - 11:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Oct 03 - 02:36 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 03 - 03:57 PM
bbc 05 Oct 03 - 05:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Oct 03 - 06:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Oct 03 - 07:12 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Oct 03 - 10:09 PM
hesperis 05 Oct 03 - 11:06 PM
SINSULL 05 Oct 03 - 11:38 PM
Melani 05 Oct 03 - 11:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Oct 03 - 07:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Oct 03 - 07:45 AM
Sandra in Sydney 06 Oct 03 - 08:22 AM
GUEST 06 Oct 03 - 10:16 AM
Bill D 06 Oct 03 - 11:00 AM
Amos 06 Oct 03 - 11:35 AM
curmudgeon 06 Oct 03 - 11:48 AM
Mary in Kentucky 06 Oct 03 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,JohnB 06 Oct 03 - 12:14 PM
open mike 06 Oct 03 - 01:17 PM
Melani 06 Oct 03 - 06:26 PM
Sandra in Sydney 07 Oct 03 - 08:28 AM
Brian Hoskin 07 Oct 03 - 09:06 AM
Roger the Skiffler 08 Oct 03 - 03:57 AM
CapriUni 08 Oct 03 - 04:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Oct 03 - 04:24 PM
CapriUni 08 Oct 03 - 04:32 PM
Burke 08 Oct 03 - 05:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Oct 03 - 06:04 PM
CapriUni 09 Oct 03 - 12:27 AM
GUEST,harpy 09 Oct 03 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,MMario 09 Oct 03 - 12:51 PM
Uncle_DaveO 09 Oct 03 - 01:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Oct 03 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,harp 09 Oct 03 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,MMario 09 Oct 03 - 03:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Oct 03 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,harp 09 Oct 03 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,MMario 09 Oct 03 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,harp 09 Oct 03 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,MMario 09 Oct 03 - 04:31 PM
Bill D 09 Oct 03 - 04:39 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Oct 03 - 01:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Oct 03 - 01:24 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Oct 03 - 01:56 PM
Amos 13 Oct 03 - 03:14 PM
Amos 13 Oct 03 - 03:16 PM
michaelr 13 Oct 03 - 06:57 PM
Naemanson 14 Oct 03 - 12:02 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 03 - 12:26 AM
JohnInKansas 20 Oct 03 - 03:54 AM
wysiwyg 20 Oct 03 - 09:14 AM
Wolfgang 20 Oct 03 - 09:37 AM
Amos 20 Oct 03 - 10:16 AM
wysiwyg 20 Oct 03 - 10:29 AM
Amos 20 Oct 03 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Snoozer at Work 20 Oct 03 - 11:53 AM
MMario 20 Oct 03 - 10:25 PM
katlaughing 21 Oct 03 - 12:23 AM
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Subject: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Max
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 02:47 PM

I was going to wait another day or so to talk about it, but I will explain it now. I do business with Google a lot. I am a huge fan and supporter (and customer) of Google. They have given me great service and have helped the businesses I have associated them with immeasurably. Plus their search engine rocks. In short, can't say enough good about them.

So, while doing my usual business with them, I came across their service which they call AdSense, which is a relevance based ad system that pays per click. I signed up to see if their technology can work on the fly fast enough to keep up with our forum. Less than 2 days in, I am impressed with what it can do. It's not perfect, but a good percentage of the time, it can figure out a relevant ad to show for a particular topic of a thread or song. When it can't it puts up public service ads that we get no credit for. But public service is cool.

Most importantly, since I added that test code to the bottom of the thread message page and the bottom of the songs (now less than 24 hours), The Mudcat has raised $1.64. That is pretty easy money. So this morning I started asking questions like: What if I moved it to the top of those pages? What about other pages? What about my promise to not do banner ads? What if I posted a thread encouraging our users to be patient with their presence and to click them now and then?

Now, the reality of Mudcat is that we have our core members that spend a lot of time here, whom I care about very much. What we also have is millions of passersby that stop through every month. It's probably 80% strangers, but lets just say that 50% of the Mudcat traffic is members, and 50% is strangers. So the time and expense of running the Mudcat half due to anyone that might read this message, and half from people we know won't. Currently we're funded only from our members. Not quite fair, so maybe this is a way to balance the game.

Anyway, I just started thinking about this yesterday. So far, I can't ignore that in less than 24 hours, unannounced, and at the bottom of only 2 pages, we've already gotten 9,230 impressions, 15 clicks and $1.64.

So what do you think?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Amos
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 02:55 PM

Well some of those clicks were from reg'lars trying to suss out what the experiment was! :>) But I won't object if they show up regularly, because intheir current trial location they are discreet, not intrusive. Just my $.02

A


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 02:58 PM

I can click!


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: C-flat
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 02:58 PM

I wouldn't be put off by a few sensibly placed ads and had already clicked on the "gorilla" one before reading this thread. So I would say YES, it makes good sense to get a little extra help with the funding, but too much advertising can be tiresome and can clutter up the site.
C-flat


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 02:58 PM

I vote yes! If it helps Mudcat, I can live with it.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: nutty
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 02:58 PM

Max ..... anything that keeps this site up and running is OK by me.
I am great fan of Google as well, in fact I rarely use any other search engine.
I can't pretend that I understood everything you said but I have been on the site long enouh to know that you would not willingly do anything to damage Mudcat, so I trust your judgement. Go for it.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: open mike
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:03 PM

we specialize in blickies it is
good that some can benefit our favorite cat!
i don't mind that it is sort of like a banner
go for it max!
a good way to get passers by to add to the "kitty"
those who get the good things from this site
but do not join or donate will now have a way to
add their .002 cents or however much...
glad to share the load!


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:06 PM

go for it Max!

is this one click per IP address per day - like many of the charity sites, or every click on an ad?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bassic
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:08 PM

Its descrete, relevant (to some degree), and brings in the cash. I say go for it.

"A few clicks a day keeps the crashes away!"


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Max
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:09 PM

MMario, I have not seen specific details on that, but I assume they are carefully monitoring the validity of clicks. Google is a large and successful company, so I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be able to trick them.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:10 PM

Fine by me, just as long as I don't get a phone call at dinner.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:15 PM

*shrug*...I suspect that I can tolerate it and click a few if it helps..(and if I win the BIG lottery, you won't have to fret anymore!)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:15 PM

I assume that if the arrangement doesn't work that you can get out of it, so I'd like to see anything which raises money for the Mudcat in a way which doesn't seem obtrusive. Besides, this place helped me through a very difficult period of my life and I have few resources to contribute in payment.

Bring it on, Max!

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bassic
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:16 PM

Also, if it stays the same size, I am ok with it going to the top of the page, between the Mudcat logo and the Quick links Box? (Might need to shuffle things along a bit). If we are going to go for it, and so far most people seem ok with it, it might as well be seen so it can generate the maximum benefit.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:31 PM

Max, as long as you can back out of it, if need be, AND, you maintain control of where they display, etc. I think it's a fine idea. Thanks for letting us know and asking for input.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:32 PM

One question: if they come up with relevant clickies for CDs for songs, etc. will that include Dick/Camsco and Sandy/Folk Legacy?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:32 PM

I'm for it, bigtime. Put it anywhere. Put it so it appears while the rest of the page is loading slowly. The only concern or caution I have, is that if any clicks lead to a spyware thing, I will be counting on our more savvy members around here to help guide in keeping current with spy-killing tactics. I don't care if Big Brother is watching-- I'll live with the concequences of what I post. But what I do care about is having so many pages pop themselves open when I'm doing music research here or elsewhere that I get carpal tunnel wrist from closing all those damn windows.

Some places have a paid-members option where they get pay to get their pages minus the ads. That sounds to me like too much detail crap to deal with on your end. But it's a thought you may find yourself considering eventually.

Take a look at http://www.cyclingnews.com to see a well-handled ad presence in a page design not too dissimilar from Mudcat's overall look. Lot of ads (some even blink), but they never seem to me to get in the way of the NEWS, and I am there as often as at Mudcat with no ill effect.

Because, you know, really, I don't mind knowing how to get a bigger penis. :~)

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:35 PM

Kat - from what I garnered doing a quick google on the program - only if Dick or Sandy were signed up as advertisers


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:36 PM

In full agreement, Max...


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:45 PM

No problem.

Right now the ads are for gorillas and babies, and I'm all for them any way. And google is about the only big-player on the Internet I feel happy with.

I already make a point of clicking on the hunger-sites magic buttons in any case, on the way to the Mudcat, so I can make a point of clicking on another coiple of buttons when I get here.

We know you take too much pride in the Mudcat to wreck it by overdoing this, and you wouldn't be doing it in the first place if it didn't need to be done. It's a matter of trust. (Mind, anytime now I imagine there'll be some cynical flamers posting here, but they know what they can do, I'm sure...)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:47 PM

Thanks, MMario.

A suggestion, if they are to remain at the bottom of the "page" for those of us who'd want to do a Quick Click for that day's bennies for the Mudcat, put a link at the top, much like the Forum Home link, so we can swoop down there, click on them, then use the Forum Home to swoop back up.:-)

I can see a whole new realm of BS outta this....Have you done your Clicks/Clique/Clickies, today? Click today, pay the way!


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM

As long as it remains discreet, and we don't get any totally in appropriate content. Plus no spyware, and you whose judgement I trust have some control over what they can and can't shove at us. As someone who just got wormed I'm understandably cautious.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:49 PM

not to mention complaints about the "Inner Clique" click group


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:56 PM

As a matter of religious conviction, I hate ads, but I can certainly live with the current, unobtrusive, ones. Any estimate on how much Mudcat would make if we went for it full time?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:00 PM

Perhaps I'm going blind in my old age, but I've been unable to find the test messages. The only new things I find at the bottom of pages is the "Max is experimenting, please excuse" message. Can someone clue me in here?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Max
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:05 PM

No spyware, no cookies, no pop-ups, Google is very reputable, we'll add extra ads for Dick and Sandy, we can back out any time, it won't disturb the design and flow of Mudcat, we can block any advertiser we want, and it doesn't effect load time.

We'll be trying it in a couple of places, Pene is working on that now. We can keep modifying our efforts till we reach maximum results and minimum annoyance.

Thanks everyone.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Padre
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:08 PM

I support the project, Max. A good idea.

Padre


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bassic
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:10 PM

Dave, directly underneath that message from Max there should be a small blue box, aprox 4" x 1" Containing 2 small messeges with blue "linked" titles.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:14 PM

I have question...is a click a click as soon as the page begins loading? That is, does it count if I don't let the page finish loading? I do not know if the site can tell and how they monitor those things.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:14 PM

Since reporting that I don't find the messages (Netscape 4.76), I tried getting on Mudcat with Internet Explorer, and with Netscape 7.0. The ads DO show up with those browsers, though not with Netscape 4.76.

From my own point of view, because I REFUSE to use IE for a number of reasons, and though I have Netscape 7.0, I don't use it because it doesn't access my files of back emails I have built up with 4.76.

Though this doesn't seem a live issue with me right now, I approve the addition of the ads, and would be sure to click on them from time to time if I could access them.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bassic
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:15 PM

Or, perhaps Uncle DaveO is very subtly telling us he supports the idea by saying he dont "see" the ads? :-)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:22 PM

We've always had "Blue Clicky Things"... Now there's a bit of bread in it for the Cat.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bassic
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:22 PM

OOps, that exolains that then!


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:27 PM

I had to make the same trip over to IE to see the ads, Dave. I've kept the old netscape because I like the communicator email and don't want to lose the files.

My Netscape has been having trouble with Mudcat today, though. It's like it "overshoots" the page I want and I see it briefly before it goes to a 404 message. I back click to the page I wanted.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:34 PM

sounds good to me. mg


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Max
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 04:45 PM

I did read that there are Netscape issues. But it seems close to 92% of our users use IE. We'll take it. If you don't see it, then you don't have to worry about it.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:14 PM

Anything you want do Max is always been fine with me. After all you're running the show here & shelling out the dough for it.
Barry


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:15 PM

it works fine in Opera, Mozilla, Mozilla 'Firebird', K-Meleon and 4C-Vision

does NOT work in Off-By-One or Netscape 4.7X

I, also, will not open IE without a VERY compelling reason.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:19 PM

92% use IE?? *sigh*, and they are SUCH a resonable bunch of folks otherwise....


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:20 PM

Well I can understand the gorillas but who wants another baby?!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bassic
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:21 PM

Hey, the ad moved!! :-)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:22 PM

The box includes a link called "Ads by Google" where you can ask/comment about specific ads and/or the way the thing operates.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:25 PM

.... Hey, be sure it appears in huge type on the page where first-time visitors make a new thread requesting lyrics that have been posted here 90 zillion times, while yer at it! :~)

~S~


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:29 PM

that may be a better place for the ads....it's a 'little' startling at first, but...*shrug*


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:30 PM

Hmmm? Everyone knows that you, Max, obviously have the best interests of MUDCAT at heart.

I would suggest, as a very loyal and non-paying member, would suggest this: try it for a trial period. Do you have to sign up for a long term committment? As others have already commented, "can we get out of it if it doesn't work?"

As someone with a very curious mind (people have called me curious for years) I use google probably ten times a day.

Thanks muchly for you continuing efforts. Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:32 PM

I'm a loyal Nutscrape user, cause it beats IE in my book...

Got version 7.01 now, and the new stuff ticks over just fine and dandy Max!

Keep up the good work...


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:32 PM

So it's different ads according to the thread you have opened? And you can click on all the different ads? But you can only click usefully on the same ad once a day, even if it comes up with different threads?

Have I got that right?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Max
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:34 PM

Well, we're up to $4.52 right now, and we're at about the 24 hour mark. That aint bad.

11,614 impressions, 29 clicks, and $4.52

Might be a good idea afterall. And we still haven't finished fiddling with it.

I sent google an email asking for better relevance, and they replied with:

Unfortunately at this time we do not offer targeted ads to pages with dynamic content or pages that are continually being updated and/or changed.

At this time, we are unable to control how often our crawlers index the content on your site. Crawling is done automatically by our bots. When new pages are added to your website or introduced to the AdSense program, our crawlers will usually get to them within 24 hours. If you make changes to a page, however, it may take up to 2 or 3 weeks before the changes are reflected in our index. Until we are able to crawl your web pages, you may receive irrelevant ads or public service ads for which you do not receive earnings. Hence, we are not encouraging placing ads on dynamic pages.

We offer a premium service, but currently we are only accepting sites that receive more than 20 million page views a month. In this program our sales team can help customize the AdSense program for your business. For more information go to: https://www.google.com/adsense/premium .

So, I suppose we'll get a lot of public service ads that won't pay anything, but that's OK, maybe we'll get karmic reward too.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: MudGuard
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:38 PM

Max: es long as it stays like this (small in size, just text, no blinking images...) it is ok...

DaveO/BillD: the ad is realised as an iframe HTML element - Netscape 4.x does not understand this HTML element, therefore you can't see the ad in Netscape...

Andreas/MudGuard


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:38 PM

Max, my dear buddy, whatever will help you carry the load is fine. It is a simple equation. We love Mudcat, you need money to keep it afloat, we support whatever you need to do to keep it afloat.

BillD, I laughed like hell. I have told my family that if I ever catch a lotto, the first check is to Mudcat to let Max build and maintain whatever he wants.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:41 PM

Me, too, Mick!

Max/Pene, FWIW, I don't like them in between the Music and BS thread. Just above the text box is good, though. Well...you asked.**bg**


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Dave Swan
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 06:02 PM

Abalooby, Max. Whatever she needs.

D


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 06:10 PM

It's quite fun spotting the relevance or otherwise of the ad to the thread - for example right now the thread about Arnold Schwarzenegger has "Big Whistle Music". A whole new thread game...


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 06:28 PM

Go for it.

If it will help keep Mudcat alive, I'm all for it.

Russ the perennial guest


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: RichM
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:01 PM

Yes, do it, Max.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:04 PM

There may be some doubt about how Google is using this AdSense thing. One of the leading IT sites in England had this article. Just a warning.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:05 PM

I blew it. here


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:08 PM

Well my only reservation would be "No Extra Spam" but Max seems to have covered that base.

Mark you I see no reason why the UK based "Friends of the Mudcat" should noy continue to raise funds.

My next financial statement will be posted this weekend.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: annamill
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:16 PM

Go for it Max!

What's Abalooby??

Love, Annamill


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Mark Clark
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:18 PM

I think the Google Ads will be fine. I'll probably be clicking some of them myself. It would be nice if the ads popped up a new window instead of reusing the window in which the ad appears.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:00 PM

this 'may' help, but we need to read what others say...http://www.google-watch.org/gaming.html

http://googledance.seochat.com/HTML-about.html


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:17 PM

Mark, you can just right-click the link, and open it in a new window.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:19 PM

"It would be nice if the ads popped up a new window instead of reusing the window in which the ad appears."

But in practice I imagine I'll automatically right click them to opening a new window anyway, which is just as easy.

That article misophist says seems to suggest that talking too much about ways of artificially increasing the click rate could be seen as a breach of the agreement. However from the links in Bill D's post it looks as if that's just about people playing dirty tricks with computers to make it appear there are a lot more clicks than there really are. So I doubt if there's any reason to worry.

Once thing - I very much hope we aren't inviting in Google in a way that could mean that posts from the Mudcat would be likely to appear in Google searches, which doesn't seem to happen up to now. And mybunderstanding is that this isn't going to happen. I'm sure that if it did it might get more people visiting Mudcat, but I think it would be a serious mistake.

I think it is important for the Mudcat that most people arrive here because of an interest in folk music in the first place - it means that when things get divisive on the BS threads, there is that basis of a shared interest to hold things together.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Dave Swan
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:26 PM

Hi Anna! Good to see you. It's a way an old friend would give assent to something, torturing "absolutely"...it's stupid and it's stuck to me for years.

It might stick to you too.

Cheers,
D


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:36 PM

Are the ads there now? I think I saw a couple yesterday, but I see nothing now.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:41 PM

I'm against it. I thought you said you weren't going to do this sort of thing with the mudcat?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bassic
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:03 PM

Go to the `Welcome new `Catter el ted` thread. Say hi to ted and click on the ads there. They are about flamenco products and are NOT public service ads so must be making us come CASH!! And you make the guy feel welcome to our community in the bargain!! I have no ulterior motive in promoting this link.

el Gordo

"flamenco, the true path" foundation, honorry life president in chrge of Marketing and getting the time share for us to use in the Bahamas.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:08 PM

I don't see any ads. And I have IE. (sorry, Bill)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Max
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 10:10 PM

Ah, you can always count on harpgirl.

Yes Harpy, I did say I would never do this. I guess the short answer is that I changed my mind.

McGrath: I noticed last month that Google was picking up stuff in the forum within days. I was astonished and pleased. I have always made the Mudcat to be a place you could find stuff that you were looking for, and from there you might find people that might just be interested in the same sort of stuff. Seems beautiful to me.

The Google Bots are really amazing. I can see them come through the site in the logs. We keep em' busy here, with our million messages thousands of posts per day, and our incredible network of internal and external links. The Google brain tries to understand it and how it relates to everything else on the net, every day. Sure I'm a nerd, but I think that's pretty cool.

Just checked.
14,975 impressions, 88 Clicks, $16.78.

And I actually worry that if this thing is too much of a success, or more accurately the clickthrough rate is off the curve. That may put us on their radar and jeopardize our (and my) relationship with them.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 10:16 PM

I don't think it works in any browser if scripting's disabled. Maybe it's something else, such as cross-site linking I've got disabled in Opera, but it doesn't work with that for me.

It doesn't flash at me, it doesn't get in the way - no prob. I almost said something earlier, but thought it might be interested to see how many people who hadn't noticed the ads until told about them complained.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 10:22 PM

Ok, now I have a couple of links just under "add to tracer." But I'm positive I didn't have them an hour ago! Actually, they are interesting, and because they are text and not pictures, they don't bother me at all.

What do you mean they might put us on their radar, Max? Do you mean we might click too much, and it will be noticed and then determined to be meaningless? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 10:42 PM

Got to love it. The BS thread Secrets and Lies currently has ads for At home Paternity tests and a Video Course to identify liars. Definately gave me a smile.

Kathy

Hope to meet all your ladies at Getaway...hint hint


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 10:49 PM

POP-ups.....Google's new marketing.....Max's Experiment



It appears Gargoyle was once again ahead of the wave.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:13 AM

McGrath, if I understand you correctly, postings from Mudcat can be found in a google search. Just put your Mudcat name in the google search and see what comes up. It's been that way for a long time, that I know of...

So Max, should we limit ourselves to a certain number per day so keep under the radar?**bg**


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: simon-pierre
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:24 AM

It's very discreet on the bottom of the threads but I don't like it between the separation of music/Bs threads... Can't it be at the bottom of the front page? Or.. (gulp) at the top? Once you scrolled down, you don't see it...


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: simon-pierre
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:26 AM

PS : Of course you got my clicks...


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Max
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:31 AM

Just click it when you find it interesting.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: maire-aine
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:55 AM

I think it's a fine idea. And it's fine in the middle, right where it's at. I might even find something I'm interested in. Just one thing though-- please don't let them blink. I think the rate is so high right now, because everybody is checking it out. It'll drop off after a few days.

Maryanne


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 01:05 AM

If detected topic shifts within threads cause changes (paying ads) that aren't going to appear on dynamic pages for two to three weeks, then it seems a waste of space to put them into the threads themselves. Most threads go away before two or three weeks have passed. Right now on this very page I see a small ad between the text box and the blue "Add to tracer" line. But it's public service ads, like your exerpt said they'd put on dynamic (frequently changing) pages. Rather than having people click on those for no good effect, why not leave the ads on the main mudcat.org front page and any others that don't change at all? Then people can be more certain that the ads they do click on, in the name of supporting Mudcat, will be useful? Some of the "real" ads are a tad sticky--I just clicked on a vinyl record site in Australia that was unwilling to let me use my "back" button to leave. I had to use the drop down arrow and back out by skipping their portal page.

But heck, like the breast cancer fund page, I'm willing to click once a day and help support Mudcat. But wait to announce the success of this endeavor once the first check has cleared!

SRS


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 05:11 AM

go for it Max


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Trevor
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 05:30 AM

Ditto!


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 06:05 AM

I have seen the "Max Experimenting" line, but seen no ads - MSIE V6 latest update - Javathingies is recently switched on again, but JS often crashes for no known reason on this machine...

And

GOD! PLEASE! NO MORE POPUPS!!!!!!

From someone who switched off JS a couple of years ago to help stop the damn things...

Robin


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 07:45 AM

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

I'm happy if it helps Mudcat.

Anyone know of a better site than this?

Best regards
John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 08:19 AM

Useful ads are a service. Ad revenue helps make the world go round. But take care that they do not affect any public service related grants or sponsorships, tax reliefs, etc, that you may now have.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 11:47 AM

When I enter Mudcat into Google, up comes links to the front page and to the forum, which is fine, obviously. I haven't so far seen individual thread or links come up in response to other Google searches I've made.

What I was meaning is, I like the idea that we come here because we are interested in folk music or blues or stuff like that - and then maybe we also get into arguments about gun control, or capital punishment or war and peace and politics and the best way to build a whisky still or whatever.

But I'm less easy about the idea of people storming in here who have no interest in folk music at all, but just want to get into a fight about such issues. That happens on an individual basis now and then, but if it got to be a crowd I think that'd be a change for the worse.

However, as I understand it, what Max is doing here with the Ads doesn't actually change the situation from what it would be if he wasn't doing it.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Midchuck
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:12 PM

The adds so far seem harmless, and anything that helps fund mudcat without harming it seems like a good idea.

But one of the adds mentions "accordion heaven." Isn't this an oxymoron?

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:35 PM

"Welcome to accordion heaven" - I think that may be a joke reference to a song by John Kirkpatrick which contains the lines:

Here's your harp -mwelcome to Heaven.
Here's your acordion - welcome to Hell."

(And I think the idea for the song may have come from a Gary Larson cartoon)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 01:04 PM

How's it looking today, Max? What is the Google feedback?

SRS


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: open mike
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 01:13 PM

these clickies are more likely to be seen above the "reply to thread" box than below as they first were, but on the opening page, where
they go up and down the left margin, I'd like to see the buy mudcat cd"s
box ABOVE the google boxes, not below...
I presume if Camsco or folk legacy wanted to be in the program
they would have to fork out bucks to google.
That must be what generates the fraction of pennies per click..


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 01:20 PM

My only complaint about the ads is that I am paying Symantec good money for an ad blocker which isn't blocking them. Well, at least pop-ups are a thing of the past.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Menolly
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 01:23 PM

I would like to add my vote in favour, as well.
Menolly


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 01:40 PM

A suggestion: :-)

Those without cookies always get the ads BEFORE they can send each post... with a nice statement... etc :-)

Seeing as how the Generic GUEST names seems to have just so many, many postings - of course, they don't HAVE to click thru... but being told why they are being given more ads than those with cookies, is a useful idea anywhay...

Those with cookies get them on the front page, and anywhere else Max wants, but generally fewer?

Robin


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Max
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 03:54 PM

As per the terms of the agreement with Google, we're not allowed to tell you stats and $$ anymore, sorry. We're gonna follow the letter to the law. We took the ads off of the support page too, cause it says we can't put it on pages with only ads. This seems too good to be true, so we're not going to do anything that could screw it up.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 04:04 PM

Sounds good to me, Max. I can run with that.

Stephen Lee


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Cattail
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 07:11 PM

I am using windows 98 with explorer 4.0 (Yeah, I know, I know) and
also have an intrusion protector continuously running, I can get on
to the front page, but after clicking on a thread I get a small
amount of load time and then an immediate crash, this carries the message that I.E. has performed an illegal operation and will be shut
down.

I then have to shut the machine down and re-boot, other sites don't
seem to give any trouble.

This problem has only appeared since the experiment started. I would
also add that it still occurs with another machine with a
standard setup and no firewalls etc.

I have now found that if I put my main firewall on, this problem
goes away and I can access the threads,(rather obvious or I wouldn't
be typing this, would I?), but it does seem to work, so far.

This is only for information, and Max, you do what you want with the
site and we'll go with it, I'm just so glad that I have found a way
round this problem so I can still log on and keep up with you all, I thought I'd lost you for ever.


Thanks again Max for all you do for us.

Best wishes

Cattail !


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: vectis
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 08:02 PM

I've no objection to the ads that are here. They're not intrusive and I can choose whether or not to follow any of them up.
I've already clicked a few cents your way and got some useful info so go with it and see how it pans out.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 08:53 PM

LMAO......Sounds fine to me Max!!! Have Harpy sit on a broken palm frond. What sold me was the accuracy of the Google suggestions.....If you'll notice I pulled up an old thread called "Farting in Public" and it's 2 suggestions were "Gorillas" through the World Wildlife Federation and..............LMAO.......go look for yourself........really quite accurate............snicker,snicker.........

Spa


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 08:59 PM

Cattail, sounds like its time to download a newer IE for a lot of reasons! Just be sure to get all of the updates when you do.

Max, thanks for being as candid with us as you were when you set this experiment up.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 09:37 PM

I dont get most of it but Im all for anything that Max thinks will help on the suport side of this great home for us all.
                  Actualy I would love to see adds from Mannies, Music Emporium, Mandolin Brothers , Gruhns Nashville , Botton Box and the Folk music monsters , Elderly instroments or LArk in the Morning. We all talk about these places and send custimers to them in our chatter. . Also Martin Gibson and National Resonophonic could have links. Again I dont know what is apropriate and what is not. It is Maucat .ORG. THe Org most have rules that I dont know anything about. At any rate if I was Martin Guitar and saw the thread on the Martin Carthy 00018 they wouldd realize a member bought a $2,600.00 because of conversation on the Mudcat ! I have sent at least 25 people to the Botton Box for concertina work from here. A banjo was bought from Stan at Mandolin Brothers from Mudcat . This just scratchs the serface of the activity going on here. If we did critiques on BAnjo tutors and guitar vidios , even cd endorsments and the resulting perchace activity could be documented <><<> ???? Im not saying we change anything but as a group we have generated alot of spending.. AIR-TICKETS. How many of us have gone to a place to play with Mudcatters.One can gererate money for servival without being a full blown capitolist and still do some good along the way. Sorry I love think tanking. Come on in the Waters fine.. Alll the best , Guy


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 09:42 PM

I just went to Acordian Heaven in Minasota. Lots of fun and it was at the bottom of the page. All the best , Guy


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 10:32 PM

i think its a good idea, good luck with it max.john


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 11:32 PM

I don't have any ads now. Does it have something to do with them being changed and having to make their way via the Internet Superhighway all the way to Kentucky? I knew I was in the boonies...but is it this bad? No comments Spaw.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 02:36 PM

"Flammable Flatulence " gives us ads for "Fart Machine at Farts.com" and "How to give a cat a pill" gives us "Neck Pain Central".

I think this machine they've got for matching the ads to the threads is quite smart. And it seems to have a quirky sense of humour too. It's fitting in very well so far, adding to the affable lunacy of the place.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM

However, one at the foot of this thread is headed "Cost Per Click Management", in a reasonable size print, but in the smaller print it appears to say "high ROI cost per dick buying" is this an escort agency, or do I need new glasses?

Go for it Max, we're in support

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 03:57 PM

Following on from the BS "Thread Name Game" who's starting the "Linked Ads Name game" ?

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: bbc
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 05:35 PM

Ads are ok w/ me, Max. Go for it!

bbc


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 06:38 PM

So if we click on the public service ones the Mudcat doesn't get anythging out of it. Do the Public Service agencies involved get anything? Not that they aren't interesting enough a lot of the time, but it's good to know these things.

"Frog went a-courtin" - with the ad being "Celtic wedding ring". I like that. And I imagine the frog would have been green into the bargain.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 07:12 PM

It occurs to me that a running "Linked Ads Game" thread might be a good way of drawing attention to the existence of the ads, and encourage people to click on them, in a way that wouldn't risk offending against the Google rules, but might generate a bit of extra bread to help the Cat get by with a few less headaches for Max.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 10:09 PM

Don't be so smart about attracting ads that you attract the attention of the Google folks to evaluate what is going on here. They want legitmate interest in their ads, and they try to place them scientifically. Cat and mouse games might backfire.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 11:06 PM

Below the reply box as it was when I first noticed it would be fine...

However, it might be even more fine to have your own ads and get support from music stores and sites that are often linked to from here anyway.

Just a thought.

(I haven't clicked yet, won't do so until I really do see something interesting.)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 11:38 PM

hee hee...I clicked on the tin whistle site and some very reasonably priced bodhrans or is ir bordrahns? If i buy one, how much does Mudcat make? Any deals on bongos and tambourines?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Melani
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 11:58 PM

Okay, I wanted to go to the tin whistle site, but posted my message first, and when I went back, the banner had changed to something else. How do I find the tin whistle site, or will it just come around again, or what?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 07:40 AM

Visit the sites advertised out of curiosity, and maybe you'll stay and buy something. That's the whole idea. So the more curious people are about them the better, and everyone gains.

They do seem to be quite well targetted. If you opened up a thread about tin whistles, Melani, I bet that one would come up pretty soon.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 07:45 AM

But would it be this one? http://www.bigwhistle.co.uk/shop.asp


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 08:22 AM

Poor little me, I'm feeling very outside-looking-in.

I can't see nuffin'

sandra (using Netscape 4.0)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 10:16 AM

Sandra in Sydney:

If you go to www.netscape.com, you can download Netscape 7.1 for free.
It handles these ads fine, and works a number of other sites better than 4.x.

I had kept using 4.76 for a long time because 7.1, when I tried it, didn't recognize (or "remember") my bookmarks, nor my files of draft emails (which I use in managing a joke distribution list), etc. This development on Mudcat gave me the impetus to investigate 7.1, and I find that I just didn't have the various options set right. All is well now. I can recommend it.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:00 AM

and...if you are avoiding Netscape 7 because of all the AOL ads and/or banners, etc, it is just as easy to move up to one of the Mozilla browsers, which are built on the basic Netscape chassis and are pretty similar to Netscape in design.

The FULL Mozilla includes email & newsgroups, Mozilla Firebird does not...it is smaller and a bit faster. Firebird is still technically "under development", but does almost everything just fine, and is used by millions as their regular browser.

Both Mozilla and Firebird have extensive pop-up blocking and other features, as well as the ability to be customized in appearance.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:35 AM

Just to keep the record clear I believe it is the case that Mozilla preceded Netscape and NEtscape is built on the old Mozilla chassis, not the other way 'round. Mozilla was the university-borne predecessor which started making the WWW happen, before Marc Andresen (sp???) went and founded Netscape.

A


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:48 AM

Good move, Max. It's really interesting to see what ads go with which threads. However, is it possible to block ads from threads that start with Obit?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:08 PM

I have IE 5, and I've only seen ads for a couple of hours at a time, usually late in the day. Does anybody know why I can see the ads sometimes, but not all the time?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:14 PM

I have not even seen one yet, not been around for a few days.
Go ahead make a million dollars a day, just keep Mudcat alive when you are rich and famous.
Thanks, JohnB


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: open mike
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 01:17 PM

My guess is that is will not do the 'Cat any good unless you access
the web page directly from the link provided. If you cut and paste
the URL and go there directly there will be no way to trace the
path you took to get there, and no credit will come to the Cat.
Is there any benefit for the 'Cat generated by what you do after
you get to the site, or is this system simply based on "clicks?"
(or if you tell us will they have to kill you? due to top secret
status of the information...)By the way the Clickie for THIS message
now reads "MSN pay per click: $0.15 Look Smart powers results at
MSN, About.com, Netscape, and others" is this a different program?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Melani
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 06:26 PM

Thanks for the link, McGrath. I am somewhat technologically challenged. It did come up again on another thread, and I did click on the banner to viit the site.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 08:28 AM

Thanks Dave O. & Bill D.

I have 7.1 on this machine but have hesitated to load it cos of the trouble my "help desk" friend had when he loaded it. I'm just a button pusher & rely on him (& 2 others) for techo help. He had major problems with his address book - I think he lost it?? & I can't risk mine (I have several hundred folk club members).

But as this netscape plays silly buggers at times (like tonight!) I'll check it out again & end him an email.

sandra


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 09:06 AM

Seems like a good idea to me as well - keep up the great work Max!


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:57 AM

Also the match of clickies to thread will lead to some humour like the Thread Name Game did.

RtS


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: CapriUni
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:14 PM

Last night, I stopped seeing the ads on the forum, but then saw one of them again, in the Digitrad, at the end of a song... The song was "Proper cup of coffee" and the ads were for handmade teapots and Starbucks Coffee.

Has anyone else seen this change? I suppose it makes sense, as the Digitrad gets updated less often, and is therefore more likely to get a commericial ad (which lets the profits go to Mudcat).

This also means that to give more support to Mudcat, I should scroll through the DT more often, looking for new songs. This, too, could be a very good thing :-)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:24 PM

The ads still seem to be on the forum. But that's a cunning suggestion CapriUni.

I love the way the ads link in though - a thread about Chimps, and what turns up at the bottom, but the Gorilla support ad!


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: CapriUni
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:32 PM

The ads still seem to be on the forum. But that's a cunning suggestion CapriUni.

How odd. Because it really wasn't a suggestion... I was simply reporting what I witnessed.

I have not seen an add in the forum since last night, but I've seen 3 today in the Digitrad...

Hmmm... Wonder what's up with my machine, here...


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Burke
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 05:08 PM

The ads are below the Reply to Thread box. I think they've been moved. Didn't I see them by the Add to Tracer box yesterday? If you're not replying they are unobtrusive but easy to miss.

After looking at some of the informational pages linked to in some of the early messages, I think we need to think twice about clicking to help raise money, rather than looking at things we might really be interested in. The implication in the articles was that Google thought some sites were generating lots of false drops, so to speak. The advertisers are paying Google to get to people who will spend money with them. If they get lots and lots of hits but no bites they will not be happy with Google who, in turn will not be happy with us or Max. I don't think I saw Max asking us to follow them just for generating income. I bet it might even violate his contract if he did.

I did click on a banjo site & may well go back to make a purchase; that's the kind of traffic Google, the advertisors and, ultimately, Max want.

Let the occasional visitor follow the links to the music or whatever they find. Follow ones that really interest you. Let's us buy from Sandy or Dick even if they do not appear.

I wonder if any of us will be buying ear candles soon?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:04 PM

The "cunning suggestion" I was referring to was that we make a point of dropping in on the DT, as a quick way of finding some commercial ads to click when visiting the Mudcat, and reminding ourselves of half-remembered sogs at the same time.

Having people click on links to sites selling musical instruments and songs is pretty well built into advertising on the Mudcat, and one way and another, sooner or later, that is going to mean customers.

And who could resist investigating "ear-candles". I will guarantee that anywhere that one appears it's going to get a lot more clicks than customers. But every now and again one of the curiosity clicks is going to end up buying something, and that how advertising works.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:27 AM

The ads are below the Reply to Thread box. I think they've been moved. Didn't I see them by the Add to Tracer box yesterday?

Ah, yes. That's the switch!

Thanks, Burke!

The ads at the bottom of this thread, at the moment, are one for how to profit from Google adwords, and for banjos. Good match!

Off to search the DT ;-)...

Wonder if "I gave my love a cherry" will have ads for wedding rings?


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,harpy
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:43 PM

I thought about why I am against it and I decided to put it into some words, Max. I just don't want to be manipulated by advertising when I come here. It is a refuge from the dominant culture, for me. More and more I believe that Morrie (Tuesdays with Morrie) was right about our culture. It has many unhealthy aspects to it which I participate in with little thought. We all do.

I want to have my experience with the 'cat be something I think about continually, modify to make better, and build in a positive way. I do think about everything I have said and done here over the years and it has given me an important mirror as well as many hours of pleasure through friendship and sharing something I love.

As for funding your efforts on behalf of the mudcat, I can understand that you might want a reliable financial source, since you are not a 501(3)(c) I don't think. I would prefer to make a pledge, though to keep the mudcat up and running.

If you want to profit from your efforts running the mudcat, which I can understand you might, I would want you to declare this as a motivator so I can decide how I feel about that, at this point.

Sincerely, harpgirl


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:51 PM

harpy - comments on a couple of your pointt. these are my opinions of course:


I just don't want to be manipulated by advertising when I come here given that people are having problems FINDING the ads - I doubt this will be a problem

I would prefer to make a pledge, though to keep the mudcat up and running. feel free to do so- others have. It costs minimum about $400 a month to run the 'cat. That's without hardware replacements, upgrades, or any re-imbursement to max for the time space and agravation.

If you want to profit from your efforts running the mudcat yeah - right. The chances of that are next to none even if you DON'T consider the backlog of expenses.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:12 PM

"I just don;t want to be manipulated by advertising appearing here"????

Awwww, come on, Harpgirl! The ads are inconspicuous. No one can force you to click on one of them. If you're not interested, they will more or less fade into the wallpaper.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:24 PM

Maybe harpgirl is thinking this might be the thin end of the wedge. But I'm ready to believe it isn't going to be like that, and am quite happy with this level and style of ads. (And I like the Gorillas, for example.)


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,harp
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:56 PM

Well, since you boys seem to want to discussssss this with me, let me say this about that. If Max wants to profit from the mudcat, will this approach really generate the money he wants? If he wants to profit is this going to do the trick? If he just wants to stay above water, why just that? What is he really thinking????

Dave, I am very influenced by advertising. I have looked at the ads and had to restrain myself from clicking on them because I know I would want to spend money I really don't need to spend on stuff I really don't need. I'm questioning that for myself right at the moment.

As for the mudcat costs, if we do indeed have a set amount to be generated, is it tied to the amount of advertising google will be sending us? What happens if Max gets way more than that or way less?
Max has no obligation to tell me anything or everything about the way he runs his hobbies, etc.

But we can and should raise questions about anything that affects us on a day to day basis. No one says he owes us an answer. And you people must know me well enough by now to know that the last thing I want to do is accept anything anyone tells me or does to me and smilinjgly say yes yes go ahead, like a sheep! I wouldn't be true to myself if I didn't question Max's changes. I can't apologize for that. I think it's healthy.   

If it is a wedge, so be it. But why should I go along with the majority? I live in a democracy. And, I don't want to be shamed for being a doubting Tomasina....
Sincerely,
harpy


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:06 PM

*grin* I suspected there would be response...Do I wish to discuss it? no, not really. It's Max's decision anyway. And I doubt that ANYTHING he does to this site will ever generate enough income to pay for the time and money he has already spent on it let alone generate a profit.

but harpy....I am very influenced by advertising. I have looked at the ads and had to restrain myself from clicking on them because I know I would want to spend money I really don't need to spend on stuff I really don't need

TRULY? This astounds me. Especially given the way you present yourself in posts.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:16 PM

I pretty well never spend money on things I can't pick up before I hand the money over (or the equivalent, for things I can't pick up, like trains and planes and folk festivals). I'm very old-fashioned about that.

I suppose I might get tempted to look out for something sometimes when I'm somewhere where it was on sale.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,harp
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:05 PM

Mario...I don't know if it's from years of being exposed to advertising which is increasingly creative, persuasive, and demanding of my money but I hate being impacted by it! Maybe men don't have this problem, but I know I do.

I want stuff!!!! And I hate it! Why should I need another musical instrument, another CD, another new product? We're using more than our share and my house if bursting at the seams with the crap I have bought over the years!!!!

Leave me alone with this advertising!!! Enough already! I want to live in a small band, grow my own food, and spend most of my time outdoors fighting the elements! So I'm retro! SO WHAT????

You guys just want me to get stirred up anyway, and then be frustrated...so why don't you just leave me alone!!!
Baaaaaaaa, baaaaaaaa....have all the advertising you want!!!! Are you satisfied!!!!!!

love, harpgirl


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:11 PM

hey! I dislke ads too! What I can't understand is that you come across as a strong minded individual with great conviction in your own opinions (NOTE: I don NOT mean that in any derogatory way - I mean that you stick to your guns)- yet you say you are so influenced by ads that you find it difficult to resist spending money on what they advertise.

it seems to be a bvery strange dichotomy.

my apologies for any upset I may have caused you. it certainly wasn't intended.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,harp
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:27 PM

I don't know Mario, I don't have any credit card debt, and I don't owe very much for my house, so maybe I am more disciplined than I give myself credit for. But, I've got forty pairs of shoes, hundreds and hundreds of CD's, books, records, several closets full of clothes, and dozens of string instruments! I don't need all this
crap. I need more love in my life, like Morrie says...

I feel like American culture is happening against my will to me. Do you understand that? I don't need an SUV. I don't need another pair of shoes, I don't need a juicy 14 oz Publix steak and texas toast!

I need to love everyone who loves me more and concentrate on less consumables. I must be having an epiphany...I'm blowing up my TV!!!
I'm moving to the country, I'm eating peaches...

Besides Mario, if you met me you might think I was totally unlike my typed self! I can be anything here on the internet! It's very liberating!!! Personally I think I'm a wimp in person...My way of expressing my NO is to disappear in most situations.....hg


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:31 PM

I feel like American culture is happening against my will to me understood, agreed with. ditto.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:39 PM

well, I would be suprised if NO one objected to the ads. WE all wish the internet washout hadn't ruined Max's business that was supporting it. I hate those 'ads' on National Public Radio, and the semi-annual beg-a-thons, too, but I grit my teeth and live with it, because I don't want to see it dry up. (I send them a bit, too, when I can afford it).

I am aware (personally) of several other avenues Max pursued to try to deal with the money issue before considering this, and I know why a couple of them didn't work out, and it is disappointing.

What we (Mudcat) are doing now, with donation, occasional auctions, and CD & calendar sales, have barely sufficed, and I know this is nowhere NEAR a profit making enterprise, so I will put up with the ads if it turns out they help.

Harpy...it is too bad that this hits you so hard...I really hope you'll figger out how to 'not look' at the stuff, and decide that Max is really doing the best he can...


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 01:00 PM

For a truly gruesome view on how these "intelligent" sponsored links work, take a look at the bottom of this page. (I hope it gets to you--it goes through my Earthlink "start" page.)

Ugg.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 01:24 PM

Well, musical instruments maybe - but surely nobody buys them because they've seen an advert? They see or hear them in real life and fall in love with them.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 01:56 PM

I sent a link to an article about two women who were murdered and their heads and upper torsos wrapped in large black trash bags and masks placed on them. The ads at the bottom of the page were for plastic bags.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:14 PM

SRS:

Well, you didn't say the magic words "Don't try this at home....".


A


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:16 PM

SRS:

My apologies -- I just read the story, and I think my remark was out of line.

A


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 06:57 PM

SRS -- that is truly horrid. Are there any human editors involved in placing these ad/links? Someone should have caught this.

There's a lot of stuff that gets through in radio and TV spots, too. I'm thinking of the Oil Stop ad that has the announcer proudly declaring "...and we'll never sacrifice speed for quality!"

And the UPS ads with the tag line "Brown nose"... You'd think someone would catch this stuff before it airs.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 12:02 AM

Well, I for one do not complain about the ads. The are understated and easy to ignore. Plus, for funding the Mudcat all you have to do is click on them every once in a while.


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 12:26 AM

Linked Ads Name Game


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 03:54 AM

Well, we've had threads on shameless self promotion, bald faced advertising, in-your-face popups... but this subliminal stuff is just going a little too far.

INVISIBLE CLICKIES ARE TOO MUCH WORK TO FIND.

(But it's a great picture, and an impressive title! Congrats Max.)

John


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:14 AM

Uh, John, whaddaya talkin about?

~Confoozed


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:37 AM

He's talking about the Schemm team.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 10:16 AM

Neither of you are making sense here. What is a Schem team?

A


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 10:29 AM

Do a "Find in Page" on:

emm

to find and follow the link. LOVE the calculators and other relocation tools.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 10:45 AM

Oh--THAT Schemm team! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: GUEST,Snoozer at Work
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:53 AM

I'd like to offer a view from the "other side".
I have a small web business and I use google AdSense (i.e. I pay when someone clicks on my ads which are shown on google searches).
I just want you all to be aware that when you click on an ad, it is not google who is paying Mudcat, it is the advertiser. Now if you have some interest in what the ad is selling, then great! Click away! That's the whole idea of having the ads there. But, as much as I want to support Mudcat, clicking just to click could be hurting small advertisers like myself.
I do think it's a great idea to have the ads on Mudcat. From the reports I've seen, this program does successfully produce funds for content sites that generally have no income.
So keep the ads, all I ask is that you use them responsibly!

(And just for the record, I recently had my ads removed from this program because I was getting tons of clicks and no sales. So I now just have my ads on search pages.)

Snoozer


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: MMario
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 10:25 PM

snoozer - that'sa the risk of advertizing!


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Subject: RE: Max's Experiment & Mudcat Funding
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 12:23 AM

Not quite always, MMario. No advertiser has to pay extra each time someone hears or views their ad on the radio or television!:-)

Snooz, thanks for the perspective. I think that is what some of the others were getting at...to try to click only on the ones of interest, so that google is happy about it, too.


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