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BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:16 PM I have never seen NASCAR. I gather, from visiting hobby shops, that it involves fast cars that are absolutely plastered with advertising roaring around a track and periodically creating a hideous accident while competing ruthlessly and frantically for big bucks and fame. Sort of like a microcosm of the capitalist ethic... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:29 PM Looks like we're circling back to the observation that "Every country gets the government it deserves" and the related cliché that "Nothing worthwhile is accomlished without effort"- don't it? Whoops- gotta go! NASCAR's on! Nothing worth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 24 Oct 03 - 09:59 PM A good many people come to Alaska to 'get away from it all'. In many cases I suspect that getting away includes having to worry about what the government is doing, both in Washington and in their own state. (It could be that is one reason for the low voter turnout, not just in Alaska but everywhere in the country.) Oddly enough, Alaskans elect some of the oddest people- talk about reactionary. Maybe it has to do with the parental vs. peer thing a previous thread linked to, maybe it's simply that they don't want to have to do any thinking about it at all. On occasion I get the urge to do the same- get away, that is, not the parental thing. The world seems to lurch and bumble along about the same whether I know about it or I don't. Maybe it's true that no one should read each newspaper until one year later- and then you'd see how many things you have survived? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Oct 03 - 09:17 PM Families where both parents are working fulltime to keep their heads above water are pretty well the norm here these days (I don't know the statistics, though it'd be easy enough to dig them out via the magic Net). And of course there are a very large number of one parent families where the mother (in most cases) is holding down a fulltime paid job as well as everything else. True enough, keeping in touch with the news, and even seeing it as relevant, can be pretty hard for overworked people. However, my hunch is that, in spite of this, a lot of overworked people do manage to do this - while a lot of people who aren't overworked don't. At least there is still ready access here to relatively honest and informative news bulletins on the main TV channels. Touch wood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Bobert Date: 24 Oct 03 - 08:43 PM Good point, Ebbie! The average American is workin' his and her brains out for Boss Hog, just to stay a few steps behind. Choices of how time gets divied up are difficult and, sadly, a majority form their opinions not from real information, but sound bites which are fed to them like rats in Skinners box... So, like they say, garbage in, garbage out... And you already know the answer to the qiestion that you have posed about comparing the American worker's quality of life with the qualities of life of folks in other western populations... American workers are getting shafted by the corporations. The US is the only country in the western word that does not offer health care to its population. And with health insurance becoming more and more expensive it means that we Americans will have to work even longer on Boss Hog's widget plants to pay for it... Yeah, it is no wonder that the population doesn't have a clue... No time fir clues... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Oct 03 - 08:32 PM Greg, I was using the term "justification" in the sense of "an explanation for a certain action or belief." I did not say that it excuses it. I am constantly yelling about the responsibility of citizens to be well-informed. My point was that a vast portion of the citizenry is so busy just trying to make ends meet in today's economy that they have little time or energy left over to pay much attention to things outside their immediate sphere. What news they get usually comes from the car radio as they are commuting to work or trying to get to the day-care center in time to pick up the kid before they have to pay for an extra hour. If they have a chance to watch the evening news at all, it's probably the local news channel, where they can get a few national and international sound-bites, a little local news, the weather, and the sports. And the news they do pick up is questionable at best. Then into the sack to rest up for tomorrow's grind. Most people don't have the resources that I do, for example. I'm retired, so I have the leisure time to read books and magazines (I'm currently reading The Soul of Capitalism: Opening Paths to a Moral Economy by William Greider), listen to NPR, watch CSPAN and CSPAN2, and cruise through cyberspace and read stories from news services in different countries and comparing the veracity of the various reports. In an ideal world, we would all have the time and energy to be well-informed. In an ideal world, we would not have the Bush administration. In countries like France, as I understand it, there are laws preventing employers from requiring people to work more than thirty-five hours a week and they must be allowed five or six weeks of vacation per year. Damned civilized, those French! In these circumstances, there is no justification for not being a well-informed citizen. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:20 PM McGrath, et al, as Don Firth mentioned, a great many people in the US either work two jobs or both parents work fulltime. Is the same thing true in the UK and in Europe? They say that in this country the old stereotype of papa going out to work and mama staying home to bake cookies for their 2.5 children is no more. What is the situation in other countries? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Bobert Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:11 PM Well, we also need to keep in mind that the US (and its allies) have never recovered from Vietnam and the lies that were told to whip the masses up into warmongers. So it seems logical that this generation of whipped up warmongers find it less diffidult to beleive the lies than to confront the truth. We will not get fooled again? Well, lots of us haven't, but it seems that 60% got sucked in again... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 24 Oct 03 - 06:16 PM Don- An explanation is not a justification. You were closer to being correct the first time 'round. Citizens have a responsibility to be informed. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Oct 03 - 06:07 PM Above, I made the statement, "The dumbing down' comes from laziness, lack of interest, and desire to be entertained rather than informed." After thinking it over, I'm afraid I was a bit harsh. When you consider the huge numbers of people who are working two jobs or working vast amounts of overtime just to keep ahead of the game, while at the same time trying to raise a family, they have neither the time nor the energy to sit around being philosopher kings. Tired and harried most of the time, if they read or watch the news at all, they have time only for headlines and sound-bites. This is grossly aggravated by the fact that what information they do get is slanted and often inaccurate. The fact that such a large percentage of the population believes that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11 (I heard a woman in a "man-in-the-street interview" just yesterday say that she didn't like the fact that we went to war with Iraq, "but, after all, they attacked us first.") is an extraordinary indictment of the media. On top of this, many people don't see the connection between politics and their own lives. A bunch of old, fat, white guys arguing incessantly about economics and foreign policy and other things they don't really understand much about, and besides that, they're all a bunch of crooks anyway, and there's nothing you can do about them. They write the whole thing off as not worth bothering with, failing to realize that what these old, fat white guys do can have a direct effect on their lives. This, in turn, is an indictment of our educational system, which has been in the Dumpster for some time now (a situation that will not be improved by Bush promising "no child left behind," while continuing to cut funding for education). So there is some justification for the general public not being well informed. It doesn't excuse it, but it makes it easier to understand. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:17 PM The USA has succeeded before in causing deadly enemies to show a temporary interest in communicating and even cooperating...consider the case of North Vietnam and China! Let's face it, when Genghis Khan comes riding in you put aside your squabbles with your next door neighbours for a bit...and resume them at a later and more convenient date. Be that as it may, I don't think Saddam and Al-Queda ever had much in common aside from a shared hatred of the USA and Israel. They were on opposite sides of the Muslim playing field in the Middle East. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Willie-O Date: 21 Oct 03 - 10:11 PM Our friendly neighbourhood conservatives don't seem too inclined to engage in actual debate here...just snipe an' run! Wonder why? About the "link" between Saddam and Al-Quaeda. There was one piece of very surprising, possibly authentic evidence discovered in a Baghdad government office, which was allegedly found by a reporter for the (relatively liberal, or at least Liberal) Toronto Star. A credible source, and the discovery was made fresh on the liberation of Baghdad--if it was a put-up job, it was well done. But the reporter says the CIA was in the room and gone again before he found the document. Maybe that's why this specific incident was such a three-day wonder in the media... The document indicated that some sort of Al-Quaeda emissary spent a couple of weeks in Baghdad in 1999 and may have met and possibly discussed some kind of diplomatic relations between A-Q and the Saddam regime. bin Laden's name was "whited out" in several places! Subtle what. Of course, the enmity between those two groups is well known. There is no evidence that anything ever came of this visit, but you can call it a "link". Somebody went to Iraq and talked to somebody else. One single solitary contact, documented by one single paper record. By the same token, there have been lots of "links" between David Trimble and Gerry Adams but they don't exactly seem to be in each others' pockets, do they? Here's the CBC version of the story: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/04/26/saddam_osama030426 There were certainly lots of direct "links" between active Al-Quaeda members and American flying schools, but I don't see the U.S. air force bombing the flying schools into the stone age..."link" is a pretty weak word to be using, it's there because they can't prove any more substantial collaboration. W-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 03 - 12:31 PM LOL!!! Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse would agree with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Metchosin Date: 21 Oct 03 - 12:11 PM "The reason it's called the American Dream is you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 03 - 11:40 AM As has happened, from time to time... I was intrigued by the fact that Toronto's very right wing newspaper, the Toronto Sun, has always supported any American military campaign anywhere with frothing and bloodthirsty enthusiasm....EXCEPT for the US-led Nato attacks on Serbia in the late 90's. They expressed extreme doubts and criticisms about that in a number of respects. Why? Because Bill Clinton, a Democrat whom they detested, happened to be president. If it had been a Republican president and he had dropped nuclear bombs on Serbia, the Sun would have been cheering all the way. That's the way it goes. People are more subjective than most of them are prepared to admit. By the way, it was about the only time I've ever agreed with the Sun about anything...I thought the Nato bombing of Belgrade was unnecessary and way out of line. I was amused that we DID agree for once, and thought "Well, it takes Bill Clinton to get the Sun on my side..." :-) (And I wasn't hugely anti-Clinton at the time...had very mixed feelings about the man...but to the Sun he was the Antichrist. So naturally they opposed anything he was connected with.) I believe the Sun, a Canadian newspaper, would support the invasion of Canada by the USA...at least if it was launched by a Republican president. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:22 AM Describing that post as "a typical liberal's opinion" was surely doing just the same thing as you accused misophist of doing, Doug. The implication that people outside big cities are inescapably ignorant and out of touch just doesn't stand up, as I pointed out in the post immediately following that one, and was backed up by others. On the other hand, it must surely be worrying to people of any political opinion, if there is evidence that a sizable majority of your population is as badly informed about important facts which are not in dispute, as is the case if that survey is to be believed. This would apply just as much if the politics were reversed, and all this had been happening under a Denocrat administration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,The Lesser Gods, Major Archetypes, and Archa Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:23 PM Indeed, Doug. People from different backgrounds, with all the best intentions in the world, still tend to marginalize and belittle those different from themselves. To overcome this tendency requires great patience, compassion, and willingness to listen and get to know one another better. These attitudes are rare in the field of political discussion, but not completely unknown. They're even rarer in warfare. You will all have a good laugh about it someday in the spiritual regions, when you see what worthy opponents you made for each other and what a great, engrossing game it all was. It's an opportunity not to win...but to transform yourselves into a higher awareness. Because truly you are all One. And now...back to the debate! :-) (If you want it...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:16 PM Its particularly difficult to conduct when one person wilfully, or ignorantly, completely misrepresents what the other has said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: DougR Date: 20 Oct 03 - 10:41 PM Misophist's comment of October 8, 8:20 PM, is, IMO, a typical liberal's opinion of the thinking of the "rest" of the country. We don't agree with the liberal point of view, therefore we are pore old ignorant people. And some people wonder why dialogue between people of opposite views is so difficult to conduct. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 20 Oct 03 - 07:03 PM heric, your last few sentences say it all. It is easier to believe what one wants to believe, i.e. that everything is fine -- than to actually think critically. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 20 Oct 03 - 04:05 PM I think I can buy that last line abut manipulation. However, the various subsets of populations would get very complicated. You would have the illiterate, and otherwise truly ignorant, populations who can be broken down into "want to be manipulated" versus don't want. Then you would have a population of those who are capable of discerning propoganda, but don't care to (in some instances.) Interesting results. I never want to believe that a President or Prime Minister would lie (Goddam that Clinton and the "that woman" speech.) People would want to believe they have outside support for an inevitable outcome (invasion.) People would want to believe that the invasion was morally justifiable (especially when it is being done in their name but without any control over it.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 03 - 04:00 PM 60 %??? Good lord, what a collectivity of wooly-headed followers. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 03 - 03:46 PM In the end Bush did actually come out and admit that there was no evidence for any kind of link between Saddams and his followers and Al Qaida prior to the war (though, of course, there probably is now, thanks to Bush and Blair). But maybe the junk news media didn't give that as much coverage as they had the earlier times, when he implied pretty strongly that there was such a connection. It seesm fair to assume, as has been suggested earlier in the thread, that there is a deliberate attempt by some major media outlets to manipulate public opinion in a way that helps Bush. However I still feel you can only be manipulated in this kind of way if you actually want to be manipulated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 20 Oct 03 - 02:14 PM I have great disdain for newspapers and more for pollsters. May I point out that this article we are reviewing is a poll reported in a newspaper. One question I have is in reference to misperception #2. Didn't the Bushites tell us (I'm asking-I'm not positive) that there was a link between Hussein and al Queda terrists? If so, the problem on that particular is not that the population is misled by the television media, or unable to comprehend what they have been properly told by the media, but is instead that they were lied to, causing confusion. If the President says there is a link between Hussein and Al Queda, and Fox reports that the President says there is a link between Hussein and Al Queda, and then some people believe there is a link between Hussein and al Queda, is the proper conclusion that the current generation of yanks is a population of morons? I don't think it follows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Mark Clark Date: 20 Oct 03 - 02:06 PM Helen Thomas is still a very respected journalist and I imagine that her remark about the most informed was based on her detailed knowledge of the vast amount of information available to people in the U.S. Americans probably do have the opportunity to be well informed; clearly, relatively few of us actually take the trouble to read it. This tendancy of Americans to stay on the stupid side isn't a new development. I remember having lunch with some engineers in 1967 or so and discovering they were hopelessly misinformed about our nation's activities in Viet Nam and the history of that conflict. When I asked for the source of their information, it turned out to be Steve Canyon, a comic strip in the daily newspaper. It's common to see articles reporting that new graduates in this country don't know where states and cities are located and haven't even heard of most countries let alone have some clue as to their whereabouts. Americans don't know the history behind almost any given conflict and that includes local ones like the War with Mexico and the American Civil War. Many Americans seem to practice a faith that is a combination of Christian fundamentalism and ill-informed patriotism. Long dead leaders like Abraham Lincoln are often jumbled together with Jesus in a pretty confusing way. They really practice a sort of generalized religion of Goodness that confuses politics, religion, nostalgia and soft rock music together in one murky born-again soup where everyone feels good. Sigh. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 03 - 12:52 PM It's pretty clear from that piece by Helen Thomas that she's not too well informed herself. Alternatively, if she really thinks Americans are "the best-informed people in the world" she must must have the most profound contempt for the ability of people in other countries to know what is happening in the world. That's going by the story that started off this thread. Here's the link to it once more. Reemember, it appears to indicate that sixty percent of Americans actually believe at least one of these propositions, all of which are total cobblers: U.S. forces found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. There's clear evidence that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein worked closely with the Sept 11 terrorists. People in foreign countries generally either backed the U.S.-led war or were evenly split between supporting and opposing it. Sixty per cent - and that's not even counting the ones who said "don't know". "The variety and breadth of newspaper stories make Americans the best-informed people in the world. Well, they could be if they wanted to be, and are when they do want to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 20 Oct 03 - 12:36 PM Of course, that writer is Helen Thomas, a columnist/reporter who has been around for several generations. I don't know how old she is but she has to be at least in her upper 70s. My guess is that a great many things have changed in this country over the years, and that she is still looking at them from an earlier perspective. I could be wrong, though... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 03 - 12:19 PM "Anyone who wants to stay in touch with national, international and local events looks forward to reading the newspaper every day" I'm sorry but this is so dated as to be codwallop. For one thing newsopapers are notorious at the fine art of distortion in support of circulation figures. They seek controversy or make it where ther eis none; they emphasize and dramatize the danger and harmful elements in the environment and refuse to give much space to positive accomplishments, benevolent developments, or siomple progress. It is still true you can learn more about the little filler stories. I suck up a large volumer of news every morning and I haven't read anewspaper in months. I find out what is happening from groups of people all over th eplanet juist by visiting appropriate news groups and specialized interest portals such as SlashDot. I can find someone in any part of the world to offer a local opinion, if I care to do so, and I can read news culls from dozens of wire services and newspapers. Why should I limit myself to the parochial and largely biased angles of, for example, the yellow right-wing San Diego Union, for example? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:59 AM Although I have to agree with the previous poster that Americans are not the best-informed people in the world, I also have to wonder if anyone is indeed well-informed. All newspapers have a specific perspective; all sources from which newspapers get their news have a perspective. What we consider "mainstream" media, such as the Globe & Mail, present the news from their own bias, even if subtle. I believe that news has become virtually subjective, and the only way for a person to learn what is going on is to read the same story from several different slants - right, left, Israeli, Palestinian, whatever. Sometimes foreign news sources give us information that our own have omitted. With the internet, this choice is no longer so difficult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,WHA-A-A-A-TTTT??? Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:36 AM Americans are "the best informed people in the world"????? Oh yeah? LOL! I wonder who dreamed up that notion? Must have been an American, I suppose.... :-) I mean, really, what on earth would make Americans better informed than, say, the English, the Germans, the French, the Japanese, the Canadians, the Swiss, the Irish, the Norwegians, the...etc..etc..etc..? It's little Freudian slips like that which inadvertently expose the collosal hubris and unreality that is imprinted on American culture and taken for granted in the 50 states of the Union by its befuddled populace. Look, guys, I lived in the USA for some years, and I found them to be comparatively less well informed than a number of other societies I've been exposed to. When a system has a great deal to hide, it doesn't tend to inform its people particularly well. It simply buries them under an avalanche of carefully prepared disinformation and propaganda, along with the usual commercial advertising, which is the main point of its media anyway. The last thing the US government has in mind is to truly inform people. If people in the USA were truly informed there'd be a revolution, and the careers of most of your leaders would be abruptly terminated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:00 AM And this just in from trhe Moron In Chief: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 No wonder Bush doesn't connect with the rest of the country By HELEN THOMAS HEARST NEWSPAPERS WASHINGTON -- President Bush recently gave an hour-long exclusive interview to Fox TV anchor Brit Hume, who tossed him a series of softball questions. Among them, Bush was asked how he gets his news. Answer: He relies on briefings by chief of staff Andrew Card and national security affairs adviser Condoleezza Rice. He walks into the Oval Office in the morning, Bush said, and asks Card: "What's in the newspapers worth worrying about? I glance at the headlines just to kind of (get) a flavor of what's moving," Bush said. "I rarely read the stories," he said. Instead, the president continued, he gets "briefed by people who have probably read the news themselves." Rice, on the other hand, is getting the news "directly from the participants on the world stage." Bush said this had long been his practice. "I have great respect for the media," he said. "I mean, our society is a good, solid democracy because of a good, solid media. But I also understand that a lot of times there's opinions mixed in with news." To which Hume told Bush: "I won't disagree with that, sir." Bush continued: "I appreciate people's opinions, but I'm more interested in news. And the best way to get the news is from objective sources. And the most objective sources I have are people on my staff who tell me what's happening in the world." What struck me and a lot of other folks about the interview was Bush's revelation that he does not read newspapers. Anyone who wants to stay in touch with national, international and local events looks forward to reading the newspaper every day. The variety and breadth of newspaper stories make Americans the best-informed people in the world. If the president doesn't read newspapers but relies only on his aides, then I wonder if they told him about Kimberly Requell Mari Brice, the Landover, Md., 5-year-old first grader who was fatally shot by her 4-year old brother. Her teacher said Kimberly "always gave me the biggest and best hugs." The story was in The Washington Post on Oct. 9. It was a tragic story that made a compelling case for gun control, something that Bush is totally opposed to. Busy as he is, Bush would be better acquainted with the daily lives of Americans if he read his daily newspapers. I don't know of many brave White House staffers willing to risk the president's anger by dishing him the bad news. Instead, Bush is spoon-fed the 'relevant' news from his staff. Top aides usually know the buttons not to push when it comes to bad news. More often they will tell the president what he wants to hear -- the good news if there is any. Or they may just sugar coat the news that is tougher to swallow. It's too bad that Bush's reading habits take him out of the information link that connects us and provides the glue that holds our society together..... * The rest HERE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:16 AM If people rely on the junk sources for the junk news, that really is their own choice. And that's how they become junk citizens and elect junk government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 03 - 05:17 PM And if that's what it's like for the US troops who need medical help, God help the Iraqi civilians. As Don Firth pointed out, other sources of information are out there, within easy reach. If people rely on the junk sources for the junk news, that really is their own choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 19 Oct 03 - 04:30 PM Here's another little item - from the LA Times, but you have to be registered to read the article, so I have reproduced the essential parts here: Atty. Gen. Ashcroft is pulling out all the stops to prosecute protesters. It has lain dormant in the darkest recesses of American law for 125 years, but this month Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft introduced critics of the administration to his latest weapon in law enforcement. In a Miami federal court, the attorney general charged the environmental group Greenpeace under an obscure 1872 law originally intended to end the practice of "sailor-mongering," or the luring of sailors with liquor and prostitutes from their ships. Ashcroft plucked the law from obscurity to punish Greenpeace for boarding a vessel near port in Miami. Not only is the law being used to prosecute one of the administration's most vocal critics in an unprecedented attack on the 1st Amendment, but it appears to be part of a broader campaign by Ashcroft to protect the nation against free speech, a campaign that has converted environmentalists into "sailor-mongers" and nuns into terrorists. None of these organizations contest the right of the government to punish them for trespass or even criminal misdemeanors. Indeed, they view such punishment as a badge of honor. However, Ashcroft is now seeking symbols of his own: The image of a major environmentalist organization placed on probation or nuns being sent to jail is clearly meant to send a chilling message from the man who once accused his critics of aiding and abetting terrorists. Unless deterred by Congress or the courts, Ashcroft will continue his campaign to protect Americans from the ravages of free speech. If he succeeds, it will not be sailors but free speech that will be shanghaied in Miami. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 19 Oct 03 - 03:52 PM Quite right, Don Firth. And I am posting below a story typical of what is NOT on the popular media, which most people watch. Although there are hundreds of stories, such as special medical teams being sent to Iraq because of (finally!) concern about the number of US soldiers committing suicide, I chose this one, because most Americans know at least one person in the military. It's necessary to read the whole article, just for the "punch line" at the end. Sick, wounded U.S. troops held in squalor By MARK BENJAMIN, UPI Investigations Editor FORT STEWART, Ga., Oct. 17 (UPI) -- Hundreds of sick and wounded U.S. soldiers, including many who served in the Iraq war, are languishing in hot cement barracks here while they wait -- sometimes for months --to see doctors. The National Guard and Army Reserve soldiers' living conditions are so substandard, and the medical care so poor, that many of them believe the Army is trying push them out with reduced benefits for their ailments. One document shown to UPI states that no more doctor appointments are available from Oct. 14 through Nov. 11 -- Veterans Day. "I have loved the Army. I have served the Army faithfully and I have done everything the Army has asked me to do," said Sgt. 1st Class Willie Buckels, a truck master with the 296th Transportation Company. Buckels served in the Army Reserves for 27 years, including Operation Iraqi Freedom and the first Gulf War. "Now my whole idea about the U.S. Army has changed. I am treated like a third-class citizen." Since getting back from Iraq in May, Buckels, 52, has been trying to get doctors to find out why he has intense pain in the side of his abdomen since doubling over in pain there. After waiting since May for a diagnosis, Buckels has accepted 20 percent of his benefits for bad knees and is going home to his family in Mississippi. "They have not found out what my side is doing yet, but they are still trying," Buckels said. One month after President Bush greeted soldiers at Fort Stewart -- home of the famed Third Infantry Division -- as heroes on their return from Iraq, approximately 600 sick or injured members of the Army Reserves and National Guard are warehoused in rows of spare, steamy and dark cement barracks in a sandy field, waiting for doctors to treat their wounds or illnesses. The Reserve and National Guard soldiers are on what the Army calls "medical hold," while the Army decides how sick or disabled they are and what benefits -- if any -- they should get as a result. Some of the soldiers said they have waited six hours a day for an appointment without seeing a doctor. Others described waiting weeks or months without getting a diagnosis or proper treatment. The soldiers said professional active duty personnel are getting better treatment while troops who serve in the National Guard or Army Reserve are left to wallow in medical hold. "It is not an Army of One. It is the Army of two -- Army and Reserves," said one soldier who served in Operation Iraqi Freedom, during which she developed a serious heart condition and strange skin ailment. A half-dozen calls by UPI seeking comment from Fort Stewart public affairs officials and U.S. Forces Command in Atlanta were not returned. Soldiers here estimate that nearly 40 percent of the personnel now in medical hold were deployed to Iraq. Of those who went, many described clusters of strange ailments, like heart and lung problems, among previously healthy troops. They said the Army has tried to refuse them benefits, claiming the injuries and illnesses were due to a "pre-existing condition," prior to military service. Most soldiers in medical hold at Fort Stewart stay in rows of rectangular, gray, single-story cinder block barracks without bathrooms or air conditioning. They are dark and sweltering in the southern Georgia heat and humidity. Around 60 soldiers cram in the bunk beds in each barrack. Soldiers make their way by walking or using crutches through the sandy dirt to a communal bathroom, where they have propped office partitions between otherwise open toilets for privacy. A row of leaky sinks sits on an opposite wall. The latrine smells of urine and is full of bugs, because many windows have no screens. Showering is in a communal, cinder block room. Soldiers say they have to buy their own toilet paper. They said the conditions are fine for training, but not for sick people. "I think it is disgusting," said one Army Reserve member who went to Iraq and asked that his name not be used. That soldier said that after being deployed in March he suffered a sudden onset of neurological symptoms in Baghdad that has gotten steadily worse. He shakes uncontrollably. He said the Army has told him he has Parkinson's Disease and it was a pre-existing condition, but he thinks it was something in the anthrax shots the Army gave him. "They say I have Parkinson's, but it is developing too rapidly," he said. "I did not have a problem until I got those shots." First Sgt. Gerry Mosley crossed into Iraq from Kuwait on March 19 with the 296th Transportation Company, hauling fuel while under fire from the Iraqis as they traveled north alongside combat vehicles. Mosley said he was healthy before the war; he could run two miles in 17 minutes at 48 years old. But he developed a series of symptoms: lung problems and shortness of breath; vertigo; migraines; and tinnitus. He also thinks the anthrax vaccine may have hurt him. Mosley also has a torn shoulder from an injury there. Mosley says he has never been depressed before, but found himself looking at shotguns recently and thought about suicide. Mosley is paying $300 a month to get better housing than the cinder block barracks. He has a notice from the base that appears to show that no more doctor appointments are available for reservists from Oct. 14 until Nov. 11. He said he has never been treated like this in his 30 years in the Army Reserves. "Now, I would not go back to war for the Army," Mosley said. Many soldiers in the hot barracks said regular Army soldiers get to see doctors, while National Guard and Army Reserve troops wait. "The active duty guys that are coming in, they get treated first and they put us on hold," said another soldier who returned from Iraq six weeks ago with a serious back injury. He has gotten to see a doctor only two times since he got back, he said. Another Army Reservist with the 149th Infantry Battalion said he has had real trouble seeing doctors about his crushed foot he suffered in Iraq. "There are not enough doctors. They are overcrowded and they can't perform the surgeries that have to be done," that soldier said. "Look at these mattresses. It hurts just to sit on them," he said, gesturing to the bunks. "There are people here who got back in April but did not get their surgeries until July. It is putting a lot on these families." The Pentagon is reportedly drawing up plans to call up more reserves. In an Oct. 9 speech to National Guard and reserve troops in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Bush said the soldiers had become part of the backbone of the military. "Citizen-soldiers are serving in every front on the war on terror," Bush said. "And you're making your state and your country proud." -0- Mark Benjamin can be contacted at mbenjamin@upi.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:33 PM ". . . the damage is self-inflicted." True, up to a point. But this particular "dumbing down," I think, comes largely as a result of hearing only one side of the story, and with five mega-corporations in control of the media, that's what the vast majority of the American public gets. But there are other sources. The Jim Lehrer News Hour on PBS gives pretty in-depth reports, and they do their damnedest to get it right. NOW, with Bill Moyers does some pretty good investigative reporting, as does Frontline, but these programs are on PBS, which all too many Americans regard as "square" or "dull" or (or the ultimate curse) "for eggheads"— and, of course, the all-time favorite, "ultra-liberal." What makes these programs all those things is that they try to present things factually, more often then not they show rather than tell, and they give people from both sides of an issue an opportunity to speak their piece and they let the viewer make up his or her mind. And Frontline and NOW, with Bill Moyers especially air issues that the Right and the Bush administration would much rather the general public not know about. Even 60 Minutes on CBS has been doing some pretty darned good journalism lately. These programs earn the usual collection of epithets, not because what they report is untrue, but because they report it at all. And, of course, there is a vast wealth of information to be found on the internet. Reading material from the news services of other countries supplies a lot that one just doesn't hear about in the U. S., and it allows one to compare these offerings with what is offered in the domestic media. This can be quite revealing. Also, CSPAN and CSPAN2 allow one to watch a whole series of candidates' debates, and see our government in action (which is often, as the saying goes, like watching sausage being made–something you'd rather not know). If one watches the news at all, it's easiest to just pop on one of the Big Three (ABC, NBC, or CBS), catch a few national sound-bites, a few local sound-bites, and then seque right into the game shows and sitcoms and heavy dramas like Touched by an Angel. If one is really into the news at all, one can switch over to CNN or Fox News (sometimes not a helluva lot of difference there). The "dumbing down" comes from laziness, lack of interest, and desire to be entertained rather than informed. If democracy depends on an informed electorate, if eternal vigilance is the price of freedom, and if we really do get the government we deserve, I'd say we are in deep doo-doo. You've gotta do it yourself. If you sit back and say, "Let George do it"—well, look folks! He's doing it!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:06 PM Some of us take exception to the encroaching tide of stupidity and have inherited the reverence for knowledge and analysis -- and I am sure we would prefer nopt to be painted with the same tarry brush as you are using on television advertising PDQ!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 19 Oct 03 - 01:57 PM I take your meaning, McGrath, but it's in human nature to take the easy route, and with Fox providing news as entertainment, with the bread and circuses routine going on in the US now (reality TV, the Simpsons, movies such as Dumb and Dumber), I wonder if people are forgetting how to think, in lieu of being entertained. I loathe TV, but watch when it's something that really interests me. Being a big baseball fan, I've been watching the pennant race, and now the World Series. But the commercials they show for the new TV shows -- yuk!! I can't believe that people seriously watch this stuff and then discuss it the next day. One show they advertise is called "24," and it evidently offers terrorism as entertainment. If that isn't cynical, I don't know what is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 03 - 12:53 PM "Dumbing down" rather implies something done to people against their will. Unfortunately it's far worse than that - the damage is self-inlicted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 19 Oct 03 - 12:40 PM Fox reflects the general dumbing-down of the population in the US today, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 19 Oct 03 - 09:46 AM Wild Flight of Fancy?? ---- Fact-Free News (Washington Post) By Harold Meyerson Wednesday, October 15, 2003; Page A23 ... One question inevitably raised by these findings is whether Fox News is failing or succeeding. Over at CBS, the news that 71 percent of viewers hold one of these mistaken notions should be cause for concern, but whether such should be the case at Fox because 80 percent of their viewers are similarly mistaken is not at all clear. Rupert Murdoch, Roger Ailes and the other guys at Fox have long demonstrated a clearer commitment to changing public policy than to reporting it, and an even clearer commitment to reporting it in such a way as to change it. Take a wild flight of fancy with me and assume for just a moment that one major goal over at Fox is to ensure Bush's reelection. Surely, anyone who believes that Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda were in cahoots, that we've found the WMD and that Bush is revered among the peoples of the world -- all of these known facts to nearly half the Fox viewers -- is a good bet to be a Bush voter in next year's contest. By this standard -- moving votes into Bush's column and keeping them there -- Fox has to be judged a stunning success. It's not so hot on conveying information as such, but mere empiricism must seem so terribly vulgar to such creatures of refinement as Murdoch and Ailes. Article HERE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:25 PM No, well they never did, did they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:16 PM I don't think the people of Kuwait get much of a say in these matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:00 PM I can forgive you for just about anything, heric, except making unwarranted advances to my chinchilla! :-0 (She's a sensitive creature...) I fairly much agree that there is nothing to fear but fear itself, and it's my feeling that the present American administration has been engagin in fear-mongering on a tremendous basis...but it all depends on whether you think they're right or not. If you do think they're right, then those of us who see them as dangerous and talk about it in public are engaging in fear-mongering... All comes down to opinion, doesn't it? It's my impression that the only 2 populations in the World which enthusiastically supported the attack on Iraq were those of America and Israel (and maybe Kuwait, I suppose). It's a general impression I have, and it's probably pretty accurate. Like anyone else, I try to sum up what I see as best I can, given available evidence... Moving on...God protect us from people who think "My God is bigger than his God"!!! Sounds like the old "My dad is tougher than your dad" routine...the infantile tactics of playground bullies. What do you do when a playground bully has nukes and B-52's at his command? I believe in a God who loves all people, quite regardless of whether they love themselves or each other. Such a God does not help people plan to kill each other, but assists all individuals constantly in ways considerably more straightforward than that...giving them strength, courage, reasoning ability, love, and every other good quality to work with. From there on, it's up to them, because they are also given Free Will and are at total liberty to use it foolishly or wisely. I am now speaking for God as well as humanity, and that's okay. Anyone else could do that just as well as me, since we are all part of both God and humanity, but what will they say? I wonder? Will they speak for life or for destruction? Will they seek brotherhood or victory? - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 17 Oct 03 - 07:57 PM Well, I never wasted a second liking him. I have too much confidence in Gregor Mendel. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 03 - 06:45 PM "People liked Bush." Clearly some people did and do, and others most emphatically don't. The question is, which comes first, liking or disliking the man, and agreeing or disagreeing with what he was seen as standing for. The assumption seems to be that the liking is the first thing, and people don't worry or know too much about the other stuff. I'm not at all sure that's true. I think whether we like people or not is very coloured by what we see them as standing for, at least as often as the other way round. I don't mean by that necessarily just politics. More important than that is a feeling that someone is going to somehow get the job done, and that doesn't have to mean you like them as people one little bit. But once you've decided to back someone, maybe just in your mind, you are going to find reasons to like them, people are like that. Even their bad points become good ones. And to some extent it works the other way - if you are against someone you find reasons to dislike them. But even when it isn't the politics tat decide, I think it's alot mor ethan likeability as such. I read a convincing piece the other day which was arguing that increasingly what really matters in US elections isn't likeability or charm, it's whether it makes an interesting story. Arnold Schwarzenegger winning made a good story - Conan the Barbarian makes it to the top , Governor Davies winning would have made a boring story. The same with George Bush junior and Al Gore (or with George Bush senior and Bill Clinton). The winner is the one whose story sounds like a pitch for a film. In the British system the way elections are generally run gets in the way of this, because it is so fragmented - but they same process occurs when it can - Ken Livingstone running for Mayor of London, with all the political machines against him. Up in the North in Hartlepool they have an election for Mayor, and the local football teams mascot is a candidate, a man who dresses as a monkey runs. And in both cases the good story wins. Again, stories that sound like films. In this case Carry On films or Ealing Comedies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 17 Oct 03 - 04:23 PM Way back up the thread we mentioned likeability in politicians. Today I read this: ... But what will matter more is whether the American peole feel at ease with Clark. In a television era, sheer likeability is essential. This is why the spectacularly qualified Al Gore lost (or tied) to George Bush, who was ill prepared for the job and has since repudiated just about everything he said during the campaign about foreign affairs. People liked Bush. The rest is commentary. Richard Cohen/ Liberal Opinion September 29, 2003 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 17 Oct 03 - 02:10 PM I heard about Gen. Boykin on NPR this morning. Boykin is a fundamentalist "Christian." Hearing the report reminded me that when Bush first started lining Iraq up in his sights, he used the word "crusade" a lot, until someone in the inner circle told him cool it. The word "crusade" comes from crux, Latin for "cross." Many Muslims regard a "crusade" as the Christian equivalent of a "jihad." By using the word, Bush was rapidly alienating friendly Muslims. Here is an alternate Christian view. Another interesting article from the same source. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 17 Oct 03 - 01:27 PM Little Hawk, I hope you can forgive me for questioning your authority to speak on behalf of the world. However, if you can get a message out, please tell them they have nothing to fear but fear itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 03 - 01:00 PM How is this for downgrading the importance of elections: "Why is this man in the White House? The majority of Americans did not vote for him. He's in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this." That's from the man newly appointed as deputy undersecretary of defence for intelligence, Lt Gen William Boykin, talking about Bush. And here he is talking about Allah (who he seems to be under the impression is somehow a different God from the Christian and Jewish God): "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real god and his was an idol." Or: "Our religion came from Judaism and therefore [Islamic] radicals will hate us forever." (Apparently unaware that Islamic religion has its roots in Judaism, and is a lot closer to Judaism in all kinds of way than Christianity is.) Here is a story in the Daily Telegraph (which in England is as right-wing as a quality paper can be, in case anybody thnks it might have been slanted in a "liberal" direction: God put Bush in charge, says the general hunting bin Laden (You might need to register to read this, but it's free) |
