Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing

Subject: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 09:17 AM

Had an interesting session with Rick F. recently where I asked him about Piedmont style playing (he refers to it as Inner Mountain, I think, which sounds like a great title for a movie). We had a thread some time ago on Piedmont Blues which began to touch on the technical details, but ran out of steam or something. As far as I can tell, the style involves alternating 4th and 6th strings with the thumb, alternating with the use of the index finger (and/or others) for the higher strings. But that is clearly lesson 1A -- if people here had to talk in more detail about, say, Blind Boy Fuller, or Gary Davis, how would they characterize their styles in a way that might help a nascent player distinguish this style from, say, Travis picking or Mississippi blues?

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Amos
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 09:29 AM

I would say that the strong thumb rhythm is like Travis picking, but played more emphatically; and the fingers are used for couples and strong melody runs interjected more or less at the discretion of the player rather than in a regular fashion.

But I'm an amateur.


A

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 11:11 AM

The term Piedmont can cover a lot of ground. Elizabeth Cotten and Etta Baker are the two traditional players I think of as exemplifying the Piedmont style but the term is often used to refer to Rev. Gary Davis and Mississippi John Hurt as well.

Players starting out with this style usually begin by learning a repetitive right (picking) hand pattern over one or two chords until the picking part becomes smooth. The thumb alternates with one or more fingers. As facility is gained, the thumb can alternate between different bass strings in it's turn. The finger(s) will also alternate between a couple of treble strings during this beginning phase. (Hold a C chord and play the strings 5-2-4-3 over and over.) An early refinement is to add a pinch to the mix—thumb and finger picking together while keeping all the other alternating stuff going. The bass strings played by the thumb are played as individual notes and are allowed to ring. Any necessary dampening of bass notes is done using the left (noting) hand.

Choose a plastic thumb pick that isn't long enough to strike the top of your guitar when the thumb is resting across the strings. I recommend learning without finger picks beause this will stand you in beter stead later on. If you feel you need finger picks, consider the Alaska brand picks which put the plectrum part in the same position as your finger nail (these also will allow the tip of your fingers to touch the strings and give you a better feel).

Once the picking pattern is mastered and you've developed some freedom with your picking hand, start trying a three string alternating bass playing (over a C chord) C-E-G-E-C-E-G-E. In string/fret terms this is 5/3-4/2-6/3-4/2. When you have all this working smoothly, work it through a lot of different chords and keys. Keep in mind that your bass string strategy will need to change depending on the chord patterns you use.

The last step is to learn to depart from the pattern so that your fingers find notes in the melody instead of just playing harmony notes built into the chord. As you get better at finding the melody notes, your left hand will learn a few new tricks in the bargain.

Listen to a lot of players in the style and learn lots of songs using the techniques. Before you know it, you'll naturally begin to forget about patterns and just play what you feel.

Playing Rev. Gary Davis’ tunes demands a more extensive knowledge of the fingerboard than the tunes of Cotten and Baker. I'd start with them and then move to Hurt before tackling Davis.

Travis Style uses some of the ideas of Piedmont style but is much more refined and complex. Rythmically, the thumb takes the lead but rather than play bass notes as in the Piedmont style, two or three string bass chords are played and the bass strings are slightly damped by the heel of the picking hand. We have other threads here that discuss the details of Travis picking and a search will yield a lot of good ideas and links.

When I began this post it would have been the third in the thread. I'd better cut it off now and see how the thread is progressing. <g>

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 11:29 AM

Thanks, Mark. I realize I have been playing that way all the time, but never knew it had a name -- like Le Bourgeous Gentilhomme who has been speaking prose all his life. The bass runs, rhythm, and picking out the notes must be what gives it its thickness -- you listen to Gary Davis and you wouldn't think it was even remotely associated with the simple pattern you outline.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Steve-o
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:02 PM

Mark is absolutely right, of course. Let me give you the abridged, dead simple way that I learned to do this: Hold a C chord. Now pluck a pattern that has two parts- the first part is Thumb 4th string, then Pinch 5th and 2nd strings. Part two is Thumb 4th, first finger second string, thumb sixth string, then second finger first string. Hum it to yourself- "thumb pinch, thumb-one-thumb-two". Do this 827,000 times and it will hard wire your fingers- then you can begin modifying it with the addition of melody notes, etc. I believe it's best to get a pattern really stuck in your brain, and then learn how to mess with it.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 03:46 PM

The thing that makes Bro. Davis’ playing so complex is that he's constantly moving his left hand to different chords, chord fragments and notes so you get this terrific feeling of constant movement. He's playing runs—phrases, really—that are several measures long. To play those passages while singing, as Davis does, they have to become part of the cell structure of your fingers, so to speak. You (I) can't be thinking of how to play those passages and also be thinking about singing. Davis also does a lot of alternate (thumb and finger) picking on a single string or pair of strings to get some of the runs he plays. You'll hear the bass drop out during these passages but the whole thing is so powerful and dynamic there is no loss of rhythm.

The Mississippi blues style tends to keep what is often just a drone bass thump constantly going without a break. Fast bass runs are accomplished with a fast series of down strokes with the thumb while fast treble runs are played using a fast series of up strokes with the index finger. There is very little dependence on pattern in Mississippi (Delta) blues and very little of the alternate thumb-index picking to make runs easier.

The thing to remember about all these styles is that they are all thumb or rhythm driven. It isn't a melody with some rhythm added for fill, it's rhythm with some melody suggested around it in a syncopated fashion. Lead with your thumb. Some players keep their thumbs fairly stiff and use their whole forearm to define the rhythm while playing melody with the index finger. This can make it easier to keep the rhythm solid while doing all the other stuff.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 04:38 PM

Continuing thanks. How would someone characterize Blind Boy Fuller's playing vis-a-vis Davis?

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 06:45 PM

Gary Davis claimed to have taught Blind Boy Fuller how to play. After they had a falling out, Davis claimed Fuller never got any better at playing guitar. Sounds a bit harsh to me. Fuller played and sang a lot of great songs.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 12:33 AM

Fulton Allen (aka Blind Boy Fuller) only recorded for a short time but his recordings were very popular. In addition to working with Gary Davis he also had collaborations with Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee, though not at the same time. Brownie McGhee was highly influenced by Fuller and really belongs in the list of Piedmont blues players. Following Fuller's death, McGhee's records were issued under the nom de plume Blind Boy Fuller II.

Here is a short Fuller bio quoted from ArtistDirect.com.

Unlike blues artists like Big Bill or Memphis Minnie who recorded extensively over three or four decades, Blind Boy Fuller recorded his substantial body of work over a short, six-year span. Neverthless, he was one of the most recorded artists of his time and by far the most popular and influential Piedmont blues player of all time. Fuller could play in multiple styles: slide, ragtime, pop, and blues were all enhanced by his National steel guitar. Fuller worked with some fine sidemen, including Davis, Sonny Terry, and washboard player Bull City Red. Initially discovered and promoted by Carolina entrepreneur H. B. Long, Fuller recorded for ARC and Decca. He also served as a conduit to recording sessions, steering fellow blues musicians to the studio.

In spite of Fuller's recorded output, most of his musical life was spent as a street musician and house party favorite, and he possessed the skills to reinterpret and cover the hits of other artists as well. In this sense, he was a synthesizer of styles, parallel in many ways to Robert Johnson, his contemporary who died three years earlier. Like Johnson, Fuller lived fast and died young in 1942, only 33 years old. Fuller was a fine, expressive vocalist and a masterful guitar player best remembered for his uptempo ragtime hits "Rag Mama Rag," "Trucking My Blues Away," and "Step It Up and Go." At the same time he was capable of deeper material, and his versions of "Lost Lover Blues" or "Mamie" are as deep as most Delta blues. Because of his popularity, he may have been overexposed on records, yet most of his songs remained close to tradition and much of his repertoire and style is kept alive by North Carolina and Virginia artists today. ~ Barry Lee Pearson, All Music Guide

A characteristic of Piedmont players seems to be their diversity of material. They don't play from a single genre but include all kinds of pieces. Compare, for instance, Gary Davis' U.S. March and Elizabeth Cotten's Graduation March. Both great show pieces, one still wouldn't necessarily associate those tunes with folk blues.

Fuller's recording of Baby Let Me Lay It On You is an original source, via Eric von Schmidt, for Bob Dylan's Baby Let Me Follow You Down. Of course Rev. Gary Davis claimed to have been the original composer.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 10:50 AM

It is funny, I still have a hard time hearing the similarities in style between Fuller, Gary Davis, Brownie McGhee. They all sound so different. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 10:58 AM

Well, that may be because Brownie is playing the blues harp. (Just keedin').

Fuller and Davis share that driving thumb and flair for melodic inventions built on pinched pairings and sliding couplets in the top end, subordinated (as mentioned above) to that driving bass. Elizabeth Cotton, playing a much milder style overall, still makes it clear that it's melodic filigree riding on a timeline borrowed from the thumb, and not the other way around. I remember a Gary Davis concert in 1963 or thereabouts, particularly, "All I Want (Is a Little More Faith in Jesus)". That bass line filled the air, and the fingered melodic inventions always seemed miraculous and surprising.

A

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 11:33 AM

for anyone (Davis, my hero) to claim that Fuller was a lesser player, strikes me as funny. However he did say that Blind Blake played "right sporty" which was as much of a compliment as he was prepared to give.

Rick

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 12:21 PM

Can we assume that Gary Davis was a hard man to please? Other modern players who were influenced by him include Jorma Kaukonen, Stephan Grossman, Dave Van Ronk and Roy Bookbinder. Roy "Book Binder" does a great, if not long-winded story about the first time he met Davis. It's on "Live Book...Don't Get Me Started".

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 08:29 PM

Well, this discussion has been held down at the Archie Edwards Blues Foundation where I play blues every Saturday at Archir Edwards Barber Shop in Washington, D.C., and it seems to go differently evry time.

Now, I reckon if you take the extremes it is easy to differentiate Piedmont and Delta styles. You take Mississippi Fred McDowell or Son House and there is no doubth that these two were hard Delta players. Then you take the soft and sweet sounds of John Jackson or John Cephis and you certainly have a different sound: the sound that is called Piedmont.

Well, I had heard that the folks at Archie Edwards were all Piedmonters and, being a hard Delta player, I figured that we wouldn't have anything in common. Wrong! Hey, I do fine with them and they with me... No problem... Underneath it all is the blues... It's structure is the same... so like, ahhh, we don't put labels on it...

We both do a lot of finger pickin'. I do a lot of alternatin' thumb (maybe more emphasis on the 6th string but a mix of 6th and 4th or 6th and 5th or combination of all the above). They're playin' stick 6th and 4th. Like who cares. My thumpin on the 6th (ala Fred McDowell) don't throw nuthin' off when we're jammin'. Really... Its just a little more variety within the songs. I also like to pluck out the 6th string with my thumb, but again, more variety within the song...

So this ain't been too technical but it's a few thoughts from a hear Delat player who played bottelneck who plays with a group of Peidmonters...

Probably didn't help at all...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Piedmont Style playing
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 10:20 AM

Sounds pretty good to me. yours, Peter T.